Broken Headstock!

[donbenjy]

ok, not AS bad as it sounds though: my girfriend's budget acoustic headstock has snapped just below the e-string tuners! the break is fairly horizontal(about 30 degrees to the plane of the neck) so there's a fair bit of surface area to work with here. I whacked on some no more nails "super strength" which is apparently stronger than the wood itself at about 3pm yesterday and started stringing it this morning (I know it says 24 hours to dry on the tube, but I wasn't tuning straight up to pitch. I wanted to try and get it finished for 2 and surprise her cos she needed to play..) So basically I strung it in pairs as I usually do to keep the tension even across the neck, starting with the e strings.

My plan was to tighten the strings up to audible sound, tune to a really low note and work up VERY slowly. So i spent about two hours on just tuning now, and I got to B below the E...tuned everything fine to B E A D F# B about 4 times (as it kept dropping out) and got to a point where about 5 strings were holding the pitch, went to tighten the F# string and the head flopped off again!

so *** did I do wrong?! I realise that I did't wait the full 24 hours, but by the time any real tension was there it was at least 19 hours! Is no more nails not strong enough?! I braced it tightely all night, and the join was clean and solid this morning! There wern't even any warning pinging noises!

anyway anyone got any recommendations for something stronger than the glue I used?! (which can apparently stick a man to the wall!) best way to fix a broken neck?!

Ideally I'd just go and buy her a new one for christmas but I don't have any cash! unless anyone can find a reasonable acoustic for under £50!? ( I somehow doubt it, but I'll check ebay anyway!)

[rhoads56]

no more nails is a construction adhesive, not designed for high strength wood to wood joints. You will not be able to fix it because you cannot get that glue off.

Buy a new one, and take the guitar to a pro next time.

[donbenjy]

...I can get it off though! seeing as it was originally cheap anyway, taking it to a pro would be a stupid think to do IMHO as it would be easier to save up a little extra for the same quality intrument. If I can clean off the glue, what would be a good alternative?

[rhoads56]

you CANNOT remove the glue.

Taking it to a pro would have been cheaper than buying a new cheap instrument. Your money though...

[Setch]

It isn't what you want to hear, but Perry is correct.

Whilst it's admiriable that you wanted to do it yourself, you used a totally inappropriate glue, and have now rendered the break virtually impossible to repair. If you can entirely separate the broken section, and clean away all the glue, you may be able to repair the break with a good quality epoxy.

This time, make sure you follow the instructions, and allow the glue time to cure fully before you apply *any* stress to the joint.

[rhoads56]

Epoxy wont stick to the other glue, and you wont get the glue off without damaging the wood enough that it wont go together nicely.

[donbenjy]

hmm, not sure how cheap pros are where you live, but I'd be expecting to pay upwards of £50 for a repair from a pro, and seeing as it was a very cheap guitar, the price difference isn't that big. the top layer of glue DOES come off so there is at least a rough surface to adhere to, and the break is exactly as it was before the glue was applied in terms of how it looks and fits together, whether the glue has saturated the grain may be another matter, but I can definately remove the top layer.

Whilst I might be a noob with wood repairs, I'm not entirely stupid, and have enough experience with guitars to take on repairs myself...I appreciate that I should have looked into the adhesive more before I applied it, but in my defence it "bonds wood to wood" and "fills in gaps" so there was nothing to suggest that the stuff WOULDN'T work, not to mention that i'd used it in construction before with no problems. Anyway, I appreciate the advice with the glue, but your tone seems slightly condescending when I do know my way around a guitar well!

for furture reference, what would be the best epoxy to use?

[Setch]

No offense, but the fact you used a construction adhesive rather than a wood glue suggests *very strongly* that you don't have enough experience to take on repairs yourself. If you did, the repair would still be together.

I understand your irriatation at being scolded, but you have to understand that what you did was stupid, and has massively reduced the chance of a successful repair. Had you asked first, or gone to a pro first, you would have had a good chance of fixing it yourself - even the most cursory searching for info on guitar repair would have told you that you not to use construction adhesive.

The easiest, and most appropriate glue to repair such a break would have been titebond original, or a similar dedicated wood glue.

Now that you've contaminated the surface, wood glue would be a poor choice. The best epoxy to use will be a slow curing, high strength glue. West System's marine epoxy is widely recommneded, but it isn't available from most high street type shops, and is fairly expensive,

P.S: Taking it to a professional and getting a price doesn't cost anything. Most repairs folks are sympathetic to the needs of their customers with cheapo instruments, and will charge accordingly, or simply tell you if the repair is uneconomic. They'd probably also have told you no more nails was a bad idea. Remember - asking costs nothing.

[fryovanni]

hmm, not sure how cheap pros are where you live, but I'd be expecting to pay upwards of £50 for a repair from a pro, and seeing as it was a very cheap guitar, the price difference isn't that big. the top layer of glue DOES come off so there is at least a rough surface to adhere to, and the break is exactly as it was before the glue was applied in terms of how it looks and fits together, whether the glue has saturated the grain may be another matter, but I can definately remove the top layer.

Whilst I might be a noob with wood repairs, I'm not entirely stupid, and have enough experience with guitars to take on repairs myself...I appreciate that I should have looked into the adhesive more before I applied it, but in my defence it "bonds wood to wood" and "fills in gaps" so there was nothing to suggest that the stuff WOULDN'T work, not to mention that i'd used it in construction before with no problems. Anyway, I appreciate the advice with the glue, but your tone seems slightly condescending when I do know my way around a guitar well!

for furture reference, what would be the best epoxy to use?

There was a good little article that was posted on the OLF a while ago.-click

That may give you some glue to glue info.

You are getting good advise from Perry and Ant above. It may not be what you want to hear, but they are correct. Chalk this up to live and learn. Next time you choose a glue or start to think about a repair that requires a new glue joint I am sure you will pay very close attension to what you choose(that is the up side ).

Is the "no more nails" something like liquid nails? Setch is probably aiming the right direction with Epoxy as it will have a better strength filling a poor joint surface. Titebond, Gorilla, CA will not do well without a well prepped surface. Before you actually put glue back to the guitar for round two. Try putting a layer of the No More Nails down on some test wood, and try it with the epoxy you use. You can test it to ensure it will adhere and achive a reasonable bond.

P.S. Even though a glue says it is stronger than wood. It is not unless the joint is prepaired properly, clamped properly, and the glue cures properly. It is deceptive in a sense. Because people assume the glue has more strength than the surrounding wood(not always the case).

Good luck,

Rich

[donbenjy]

I realise I made a mistake, and obviously regret it now, and usually I would've checked it out beforehand, but it was meant to be a fast repair and given the option between wood glue and "super strong 'wood glue'" that apparently does the job as well, according to the packaging, I chose the no more nails. Not that I'm trying to excuse my mistake, but I'm just saying that whilst it is good advice, which I do appreciate, I don't feel the need to be told off by the people I asked for advice.

I did use no more nails on a variety of woods before (mdf, chipboard and poplar IIRC) to build things, and they've held extremely well so I assumed that with a more porous surface there should be no problem! evidently I was wrong though! :S

ok anyway, I'd still like a little help from you guys as to the best way to go about this the 2nd time! would something like Araldite do the trick then? I assume that it's NOT a good idea to sand back the wood to try and get a cleaner surface as the join wont be clean?! I can remove the top layer of glue quite easily back to the bare wood, but I guess that's not gonna leave a nice surface? I'll take a picture later of a before/after shot of the removed stuff...

[Setch]

If you can get back to bare wood, without removing any wood from the joint, you may have success with araldite.

To maximise your chances of success, mix plenty of epoxy (more than you expect to use) as this increases the chance of gettign a strong cure - it's very tough to accurately estimate the correct ratio of hardener to glue when using small amounts.

Apply the glue to both sides of the break, and leave it to soak in for a few minutes. Then, apply a second dose to one half of the joint, and clamp it up. Don't clamp too hard, since epoxy needs a glueline to achive full stregth, and you can starve the joint by overclamping. Glue squeeze out can be cleaned up with methylated spirits on a rag. Try to wipe it away cleanly, using a fresh section of the cloth each time, and adding more meths as it dries out, or you'll smear it all over the place!

Give the joint plenty of time to cure, totally undisturbed. I'd recommend at least 1.5 times the manufacturors suggested cure time. Use traditional araldite (which I believe is now sold as Aradlite Precision), not Rapid.

Pics will help!

[donbenjy]

cool, thanks!

lots of pictures here

the bit attached to the neck is the bit I've started to remove the glue from, the side attached to the headstock hasn't been touched. The stuff kinda split, so where there are gaps in the glue on one side, it was there on the other.

edit: oh yeah, there's a really thin "rip" of wood (the little bit attached to the finish) that's the only thing holding it together...should I break it off, or leave it hanging off?

Edited December 10, 2006 by donbenjy

[Setch]

Whether to toally remove the head, or work with it hinged, is a judgement call you'll have to make. I'd try to keep it complete, since it helps alignment, but if you need to remove it to get the joint clean, do it.

The cleaned side looks OK, but I can see quite a bit of white in the grain - you need to remove as much of that as possible if the reglue is going to work.

I'd say you have a decent chance of the reglue holding up. If I a customer wanted this kind of contaminated break repaired I'd do it, but on the condition that it's a quick and dirty repair, and it wouldn't be warranteed - to much risk of it coming back! However, as a DIY job I think it's defiantely worth a try.

A back strap and new head veneer would pretty much guarantee it would hold, but that's *a lot* of work for a cheap instrument.

[Southpa]

A classic example of what happens to an angled-headstock style neck, made from a relatively soft hardwood, mahogany in this case, and NO SCARF JOINT. The straight thru grain orientation is just begging to break. It might be strong enough to hold the string tension but a sharp rap from behind is all it takes.

It might not be fixable because you are dealing with an enormous amount of lbs/ sq. inch in that particular area. Thats why the "no mo' nails" stuff didn't work. Its got good shear strength (horizontal sliding) but lousy tensile strength.

You can try it again with epoxy but no guarantees. I see white gunk under the E tuner bushings, did you not even remove them before attempting the repair? Take ALL the tuners off before doing this, you need room to set your clamps. Remove the glue residue with a small wire brush but stay away from the edges of the break. Save any splinters and chips and remember where they go and how they are oriented. Score the centers of the mating surfaces (stay away from the edges) with a small knife to give the epoxy some "tooth" for adherance, but still making sure the two pieces mate well together.

Figure out a good solid clamping method and dry fit it making sure it won't slide. When you apply the glue there IS that possibility. Use clamping cauls with padding or clamps with padded jaws so you don't mar that green finish. Mix a 2-part epoxy and spread on each surface making sure it gets into every nook and cranny. Clamp together firmly, make sure your joint doesn't slide and clean up as much squeeze out as you can. When you are satisfied that the joint is solid leave it for TWO DAYS.

Remove the clamps and use CA glue to reattach the splinters and chips, wipe away excess CA glue squeezeout. Restring the guitar like you normally would. Spending 2 hours at tightening strings does nothing. It will either hold or it won't. If you notice the joint separating while you tune up then you know simply glueing doesn't work.

After that you have 2 options, buy another guitar or reattach the headstock using mechanical means. That means drilling thru the broken joint and attaching hardwood or metal bracing plates on either side with nuts n' bolts. yes, it will look like hell but should function.

Edited December 10, 2006 by Southpa

[donbenjy]

right ok, thanks for all that! It seems I vastly underestimated the tension that the strings would load onto the guitar! Obviously that's the weakest point of neck! We don't even know how this happened, she just found it in her case one day!

[donbenjy]

ok, it's all fixed now doesn't look too shoddy tbh; about as good as it could look without refinishing the head! Had a hairy moment when a little bit of the araldite had stuck the bracing I was using to the back of the head, but it turns out it dosn't stick very well to the laquer Tis all tuned up and working fine now though! not even a creak from it...the action seems a LITTLE higher than it was, but tbh, it's nothing drastic and it just feels like another acoustic to me! (though I mostly play electric so what do I know?! )

cheers for everyone's help anyway!

[jaycee]

The tension caused by the strings is huge, off the top of my head I think it's about 8-10kg per string. so 60 kg of tension when all the strings are in tune!