Desopolis Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 I purchased a 2" x 20' roll today without really paying attention to what I was getting, and I understand that usually luthiery isnt its common use. my concern is, that the glue is generally Heat activated, and until then its a rough texture on the one side. I plan to use it mostly for a multi-lam neck I'm working on, and I'm concerned with slippage. even worse, although a unforeseen problem, what if the fretboard had to be removed and when heated it activated the glue. last time I uses veneers it was a 1" roll, and had no adhesive. Will the glue cause issues with the titebond, or am I just over analyzing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Yuo definately cant use this in structural situations. If you want a veneer accent in your laminated neck, you will have to pass on the pre-glued stuff. Sucks, but thats how it is The glue is only designed to hold very light applications (veneer). The heat from you car boot on a warm day is enough to cause the glue to soften enough. You'll have to find some pre-glued stuff. To make matters worse, the glue seeps into the grain of the veneer, so even if you scrap most of it off (or even "all") there is still enough to stop 'real' glue from sticking. I used to use the preglued veneer at my last job, and it was useless for most appliactions. It would work well for a guitar top though, but getting a nice seem joint is hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbassman Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Yuo definately cant use this in structural situations. If you want a veneer accent in your laminated neck, you will have to pass on the pre-glued stuff. Sucks, but thats how it is The glue is only designed to hold very light applications (veneer). The heat from you car boot on a warm day is enough to cause the glue to soften enough. You'll have to find some pre-glued stuff. To make matters worse, the glue seeps into the grain of the veneer, so even if you scrap most of it off (or even "all") there is still enough to stop 'real' glue from sticking. I used to use the preglued veneer at my last job, and it was useless for most appliactions. It would work well for a guitar top though, but getting a nice seem joint is hard. So, is it safe to use pre-glued veeners for solid body tops? My local lumber yard carries the stuff with a peel-off backing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 So, is it safe to use pre-glued veeners for solid body tops? My local lumber yard carries the stuff with a peel-off backing. Well, you are going to need a tough lacquer, like polyester or two pack, because the glue used NEVER sets. Its thermoplastic glue, which means its ability to stay "dry" is dependant on the temperature of the glue. This type of glue is rubbery, so it will move over time, cracking the lacquer unless the lacquer is string enough to hold it (nitro wont). If its got a peel off backing, id suggest you stay away. This stuff is not really good. Sure, someone will come along saying they have used it, probably with food colouring for dye, and watered down epoxy for the finish, but id suggest you look at more traditional, tried and proven, veneering methods. Thats my advice, from someone who has used all the different veneers, over extensive periods, in a professional workshop (with ALL the right tools). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
another doug Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 I once used that stuff while refacing my kitchen cabinets. I would stay away from it entirely. I may not have heated it enough, but after a couple hot, humid summers it started to peel away in places. Also, I think you'd be hard pressed (no pun intended, but it gave me a giggle) to get rid of the glue line with that stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 I once used that stuff while refacing my kitchen cabinets. I would stay away from it entirely. I may not have heated it enough, but after a couple hot, humid summers it started to peel away in places. Also, I think you'd be hard pressed (no pun intended, but it gave me a giggle) to get rid of the glue line with that stuff. yes, i didnt mention you would have to sunburst over the edge too. I wouldnt use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbassman Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 I once used that stuff while refacing my kitchen cabinets. I would stay away from it entirely. I may not have heated it enough, but after a couple hot, humid summers it started to peel away in places. Also, I think you'd be hard pressed (no pun intended, but it gave me a giggle) to get rid of the glue line with that stuff. yes, i didnt mention you would have to sunburst over the edge too. I wouldnt use it. Thanks, I suspected as much. I did find some nice plain (no glue) veneer locally in 8" wide sheets. Beautiful stuff actually. If I glue the veneer to the body top myself, what's the preferred method? Wood glue and clamping? Contact cement? Never attempted this one before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Perry, and tips on getting a tight seam with glue film and veneer? I'm going to be using some veneer and gluefilm to make up veneered panels for a furniture product, and my veneer isn't wide enough to avoid a visible seam. Any tips would be greatly appreciated. I've used heat bonded edging on veneered panels quite a bit, but this is my first time using it for the panel itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Your veneer supplier will have a roll of joining tape, which is water soluble glue (like a stamp has), on paper tape. Use a sponge with water (damp), and join the veneer with the tape, going ACROSS the join, every six inches or so, and then one continuous strip down the length of the join. Make sure the join is tight beforehand by shooting the edges with a plane/long sanding block. You'll have to clamp the two pieces between some long stock when doing this, and it takes a bit of time to get right. I use a vacuum bag for gluing down, they are very very handy, but reasonably expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desopolis Posted January 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Doh! Im glad I asked before attempting to try it. If its known to have issues, why is it still so common? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 well, like i said in one of my posts, its designed for low stress applications... kitched door fronts/edges, lining the inside of a microwave box, etc etc. Mainly hobby applications where a guy see's it and goes "WOW, yes! that looks easy!". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbassman Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Your veneer supplier will have a roll of joining tape, which is water soluble glue (like a stamp has), on paper tape. Use a sponge with water (damp), and join the veneer with the tape, going ACROSS the join, every six inches or so, and then one continuous strip down the length of the join. Make sure the join is tight beforehand by shooting the edges with a plane/long sanding block. You'll have to clamp the two pieces between some long stock when doing this, and it takes a bit of time to get right. I use a vacuum bag for gluing down, they are very very handy, but reasonably expensive. Very cool contraption Perry. How do you glue it down first? What do you use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Very cool contraption Perry. How do you glue it down first? What do you use? I use standard titebond. But, with figured timbers, you'll need to use much less than you normally would, because as the air is sucked out of the bag, the glue gets sucked into the alternating grain (flame maple) and can even be sucked right through to the top of the veneer (so, you can stain then). It takes a bit of trial and error to get the glue to the right film thickness so it doesnt seep through. Luckily when it DID happen to me, it was on jobs that werent effected. The film is so thin it dries REAL quick, so you have to be ready to go. The vacuum bags allow 15 pounds of pressure on every square inch, so a guitar top has about 3000 pounds of force being applied to it. When doing a headstock, you have to have a support under the neck or it will simply snap it in half! Check out the flame lines in this photo, demonstrating that the veneer is FLAT on the glued side, and wavey on the top side. If you used a piece of board and clamps to glue down veneer (which works) it would be the opposite (small pockets of glue). Of course, there are heaps or uses for this tool, not just veneering (but thats its main use). Expensive, but worth it. Just dont ever drop a chisel on the bag, like i did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian d Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Is there any reason you couldn't use the "space bags" that are advertised for storing clothes for this application? Brian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Just dont ever drop a chisel on the bag, like i did Ouch! Cheers for the tips - I'll let you know how it turns out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidlook Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Is there any reason you couldn't use the "space bags" that are advertised for storing clothes for this application? Brian. to get those 15 pounds of pressure per square inch would be a bitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Is there any reason you couldn't use the "space bags" that are advertised for storing clothes for this application? Brian. to get those 15 pounds of pressure per square inch would be a bitch Maybe not. 15 psi is actually the same pressure normal air has. Its exerted in all directions, at all times. By REMOVING air from the bag, the atmosphere exerts pressure onto the objects. Actually, its not 15 psi, i think its 14.7 (1 BAR). Id say a space bag may very well work, but ive only ever seen the informercials, never seen the bags myself. The vacuum bag i have works off a venturi connected to the air compressor. If the vacuum you use on the space bag was strong enough, there is not reason why it wouldnt work. Even 10 psi is lots. Actually, maybe not... http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/faq.htm#VB5 However, its amazing to see this thing work. Here is a video from joewoodworker.com http://www.joewoodworker.com/catalog/video/duramaxelite.wmv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer X Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 (edited) Yes, atmospheric is roughly 14.7 (I have to work with digital pressure gauges all the time at work). My wife just bought some of those space bags not too long ago, and I helped her load up the last one. I'm thinking it MAY be enough to do the job. I wanted to do a similar , so I MAY have to swipe one of her space bags and try. hehe. Edited January 13, 2007 by Racer X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian d Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Thanks for the info Perry. Even if it doesn't get to the same pressure as the purpose build bags, it's probably more pressure (and more even pressure) than clamps and clamping cauls. I've got the bags, so I'll give it a go next time I need to veneer (might be a few months). Cheers, Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted January 14, 2007 Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 I just set up my venturi system from Woodworker Joes, and have made my clamping press. I have yet to fire the system up, been working on other tasks. I don't do much veneering, but I was attracted to the idea for brace clamping and clamping bridges. The systems are really pretty affordable. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbassman Posted January 14, 2007 Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 I just set up my venturi system from Woodworker Joes, and have made my clamping press. I have yet to fire the system up, been working on other tasks. I don't do much veneering, but I was attracted to the idea for brace clamping and clamping bridges. The systems are really pretty affordable. Peace,Rich Lots of good info here guys, thanks! I have a simple veneering project on a flat bass body and the vacuum system is a bit out of my budget for one project. I did learn a lot from the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidlook Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Is there any reason you couldn't use the "space bags" that are advertised for storing clothes for this application? Brian. to get those 15 pounds of pressure per square inch would be a bitch Maybe not. 15 psi is actually the same pressure normal air has. Its exerted in all directions, at all times. By REMOVING air from the bag, the atmosphere exerts pressure onto the objects. Actually, its not 15 psi, i think its 14.7 (1 BAR). Id say a space bag may very well work, but ive only ever seen the informercials, never seen the bags myself. The vacuum bag i have works off a venturi connected to the air compressor. If the vacuum you use on the space bag was strong enough, there is not reason why it wouldnt work. Even 10 psi is lots. Actually, maybe not... http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/faq.htm#VB5 However, its amazing to see this thing work. Here is a video from joewoodworker.com http://www.joewoodworker.com/catalog/video/duramaxelite.wmv Maybe you're right...I'm not very good with non-metric measurements...I should know this stuff though since I just had a Thermodynamics exam. Anyway...If you could get a tight connection by the bag, and as long as the bag is good enough quality you'd probably be able to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.