2h, 1 Vol, 1 Tone, Push-pull Wiring

[GregP]

I have this in another topic already, but you can't edit topic titles, and the title wasn't descriptive of the new problem.

I have this guitar (Cort Pagelli):

http://www.cort.co.kr/english/products/com...?product_id=140

As you can see from the description, it's supposed to have coil split with push-pull, and it DOES seem to. But a few things about the wiring I don't like, so I wanted to fix it up and drop in an SD Jazz + JB set instead. Here's SD's wiring diagram for the same electronics (I'm not adding or removing any components, and even plan to keep the same functionality):

http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/schem..._1t_3w_1pp.html

However, when I open up the Pagelli, things are wired TOTALLY differently. For example, the leads coming off the MM pickups have 3 wires within-- a red, white, and ground. How can 'buckers that aren't 4-conductor even HAVE a coil split function? Something's funny. Then, the push/pull is on the tone knob, which is also the knob closest to the bridge. Usually (but not a requirement) the push-pull for these kinds of guitars are on the volume, and the volume is the one closest to the bridge. Weird, no? But not TOO weird, I guess, so the real question is:

Can I just go ahead and use the SD diagram even though the Pagelli currently seems to be wired TOTALLY differently? Or do you think there are proprietary switches? I would think that Cort would just use the same generic push-pull and switches that other offshore guitars have, so they should be standardized. How can the guitar currently be coil-splitting when there aren't enough leads? Weird.

Greg

[edit: sorry, another question}

Does this SD wiring diagram produce the expected results for a coil-split push-pull thing? Ie. like the options described in the Pagelli description page? I'm afraid I'm a "look at the picture and solder it the way it shows" kind of guy, with the exception of knowing how to locate the grounds and send them to star. The rest, I don't understand for the life of me.

Greg

[crafty]

Which lead coming off the pickup is soldered to the push-pull switch? What they did was simply solder one wire to both leads inside the pickup. You can split the coils, but you can't do series/parallel between the coils that way.

[GregP]

The push-pull has both the red AND the white from each. On opposite sides of the sets of 3 lugs, each has the red lead connected to the lug closest the pot, and the wite connected to the middle, with the other lug unconnected. Then the black wires lead to a shared bottom lug (not shown in the SD diagram, for added confusion) which I thought was ground (but may not be).

Since the replacements are SD pickups with typical 4-conductor wiring, I could do parallel/series wackiness, but for this guitar, a standard 3-way plus push/pull for coil split suits me fine. As long as I know that diagram will work with the parts I have, all is good in the world I suppose. But the Pagelli's "factory" wiring looks SO different, it's throwing me for a bit of a loop.

Greg

[GregP]

Hrm. I might've been wrong about the typical p/p being on volume. This diagram shows otherwise:

http://www.guitarelectronics.com/product/WDUHH3T1104

However, it also adds a layer of confusion. Sure, I can pick which pot I want to be the p/p -- Tone or Volume. I get that. But why are the 6 p/p "lugs" wired differently in THOSE 2 diagrams if they're doing the same thing? Eg. in the SD one, the 2 lugs closest to the pot are soldered together, and to ground, and to the green/white cables... <shakes head furiously> and in the Guitarelectronics one, not. The p/p lugs are assigned relatively differently. Yet, they're meant to do essentially the same thing. Is it because one is for p/p as Vol and the other as Tone?

So confused and sad... <laff>

[Robert_the_damned]

Hrm. I might've been wrong about the typical p/p being on volume. This diagram shows otherwise:

http://www.guitarelectronics.com/product/WDUHH3T1104

However, it also adds a layer of confusion. Sure, I can pick which pot I want to be the p/p -- Tone or Volume. I get that. But why are the 6 p/p "lugs" wired differently in THOSE 2 diagrams if they're doing the same thing? Eg. in the SD one, the 2 lugs closest to the pot are soldered together, and to ground, and to the green/white cables... <shakes head furiously> and in the Guitarelectronics one, not. The p/p lugs are assigned relatively differently. Yet, they're meant to do essentially the same thing. Is it because one is for p/p as Vol and the other as Tone?

So confused and sad... <laff>

I think you're confusing yourself more than you need to Greg. A push/pull pot is simply a pot with a switch that runs through it. The workings of the pot and the switch are not connected in any electonical way: i.e. it doesn't matter what you're using the pot for the switch will always act in the same way.

As for both the diagrams being differant to eachother and also being differant to your guitar you've got to remember there are more ways to skin a cat There are all sorts of ways to coil tap a humbucking pickup. In the SD diagram they connect the series link to ground: essentially grounding both ends of one of the coils so its not producing any output, in the PRS they're shorting the beginging and end of one of the coils on the bridge pickup (does the samething : stops it producing a signal) and doing the grounding route on the neck one.

As for your Cort ot sounds like they're shorting a coil to itself on both pickups but it wouldn't make sense if there are no other leads connected going to some sort of output. As they always say: A picture speeks a thousand words. Do a quick doodle in paint (doesn't have to be fancy just of the switch itself and where the leads attach and then just label where they go.

anyway why're you getting so tied up in how its wired now! Just strip out all the old wiring and follow the SD diagram if you're using SD pickups. nice and simple

[GregP]

Thanks, Robert!

Man I wish I could just understand these things by looking at them. It's funny, some things are so obvious to me and when other people don't "get it", I'm like "what could be easier to understand?" But then every now and then I encounter stuff that probably makes people like you go, "Greg, man... what could be easier?" <chuckle> I'll try to do up a diagram in Paint before ripping it apart. Also, I suspect Crafty is right and that they've put the coils in series on MM pickups before sending out a lead, probably at Cort's request to make the assembly line easier.

The 3-ways switch looks funny, too. I guess I'll go ahead and give'er a try anyhow. Worst thing that could happen is that after hours of fiddly de-soldering and new soldering it doesn't work. There's worse things in the world than screwing up an attempt at wiring. <laff>

I've had a closer look at the SD now, and did a bit of research on switches, so I think I'm better able to understand the diagram. I can't really tell what's going on in the SD diagram for the 3-way switch, though. It's not very clear-- the "W" shaped bit on the 3-lug side isn't showing which lugs are wired to what. Bit confused there, still, but the rest is falling into place. When I compare the diagrams, I get confused again, though--

- in the PRS one, the outside lug of the volume is connected ot the middle lug of the tone. On the SD, the outside lug of the volume is connected to an outside lug of the Tne (not the middle of the tone). Waaaahhhhh.... I'm such an idiot.

Cheers,

Greg

[GregP]

I know, it's a mess... but even this level of messiness took longer than I anticipated. For posterity I guess it'll be good to have done. Click the thumbnail:

Is how my guitar is currently wired.

Ideally, I'd like to desolder and move the LEAST number of wires as I replace my pickups. If you see any way to accomplish this, I'm all ears. The big difference is the SD pickups' black wire going to the switch, whereas in the Pagelli, there are all-new 2-conductor wires that go from the switch to the control cavity. I'm indifferent about which knob gets the push-pull at this stage of the game. ;-) I'm willing to keep them as-is if it means less re-soldering, but anyhow... there ya go.

Greg

[GregP]

Well, I went ahead and did it. Instead of "economy" of wires, I just desoldered the whole lot and started from scratch. Verdict: ultimately, success.

It's fiddly work when you don't have generous leads with flexible sleeves... a few mess-ups, including:

- had continuity between shield "areas" (pickups, cavities) but forgot to send it to ground.

- had too many grounds for a straight-forward "star"... I need to find a better way. The snipped-off "O" worked, but I'm sure there's a better solution out there

- forgot to ground the volume pot's 3rd lug. Whoops! I was like, "why the heck am I not able to get to zero volume?"

- one of the wires snapped off from too much manipulation of the components in the cavities. I kept watching the cap because I thought it would be next to go. *gulp*

In general, I don't love doing this work, with the setup I have. I have a mediocre iron, which is better than a crap iron. At least I have that going for me. What I really need are a few key techniques (ie. lengthening a lead that is too short with some sort of effective splicing technique), and someone who REALLY knows their stuff to give me a lesson. Everyone learns differently, and I've discovered that I can only get "so far" by reading and looking at pictures. I learn best by hands-on, but with nobody there to say, "nope, that's going to be a cold joint" or "you held the iron too long" or "don't worry, you're not going to fry your pot... yet!" I've hit my plateau for soldering skill. I'm suddenly glad I only do this a few times a year.

I DO like having the willingness and ability to do this work, at the end of the day. This is a brand new guitar, mind, and I KNEW my skills are somewhat limited, but I went ahead anyhow. I tried to do some research, but it wasn't really necessary. I ultimately just "gave'er" and I shoulda done so right from day 1. Woulda been done a couple days ago.

Greg