Rv Progress Log

[j. pierce]

I'm still not sure it's my style, but it's *beautifully* executed. Interestingly enough, I usually hate those side-cut type things (your "bloop") but I really think it makes this instrument look *better*. My brain is confused that it feels this way.

The Kahler route looks like a jag trem route - just looking at the pictures (and reading the thread backwards) I thought this was going to be an out-there guitar with a jag trem and got excited, but it works even better as the bass that it is.

Love the headstock design, particularly the radiating look of the veneers. The shape is also something I love in execution, but had you shown me just the headstock shape on it's own, I wouldn't have liked it. Which seems to be a theme here - you've taken several ideas I don't think I'd like, and combined them into a classy execution that I really do like. (Not that it matters what *I* think!)

But yeah, great job!

Any chance of seeing a straight-on, full length shot now that the "bloop" has been added?

[DFW]

it's not straight on, but it's pretty close.

[Campylobacter]

I like it! Looks much more balanced now.

[jnewman]

A quick question on your headstock: have you made sure that all the runs from tuner to nut are clear? It looks like some of the tuner holes may end up in the way of the strings going from other tuners to the nut.

It is starting to look really good, though.

[DFW]

A quick question on your headstock: have you made sure that all the runs from tuner to nut are clear? It looks like some of the tuner holes may end up in the way of the strings going from other tuners to the nut.

It is starting to look really good, though.

The B string goes to the tuner furthest from the nut, as in the Fodera Extended B setup:

I also got in trouble for cutting out that horn, apperently it;s going to be tough to finish. I don't mind doing extra work, and if anyone hsa any advice on spraying or sanding it that would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Edited April 28, 2007 by DFW

[ElysianGuitars]

A quick question on your headstock: have you made sure that all the runs from tuner to nut are clear? It looks like some of the tuner holes may end up in the way of the strings going from other tuners to the nut.

It is starting to look really good, though.

The B string goes to the tuner furthest from the nut, as in the Fodera Extended B setup:

I also got in trouble for cutting out that horn, apperently it;s going to be tough to finish. I don't mind doing extra work, and if anyone hsa any advice on spraying or sanding it that would be much appreciated. Thanks.

it will be tough to finish for sure, but it'll make you a better finisher.

[aidlook]

A quick question on your headstock: have you made sure that all the runs from tuner to nut are clear? It looks like some of the tuner holes may end up in the way of the strings going from other tuners to the nut.

It is starting to look really good, though.

The B string goes to the tuner furthest from the nut, as in the Fodera Extended B setup:

I also got in trouble for cutting out that horn, apperently it;s going to be tough to finish. I don't mind doing extra work, and if anyone hsa any advice on spraying or sanding it that would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Wouldn't that make the tuning on the B string backwards compared to the others?

[Jon]

Because the string is on the other side of the tuner, yes.

[DFW]

Wouldn't that make the tuning on the B string backwards compared to the others?

Yes, but it would also up the tension on Fatty Slappy B String quite a bit, and with mine being a C that extra tension is mega improtant

[jnewman]

How will it up the tension? The distance between the bridge and nut is still the same.

[DFW]

How will it up the tension? The distance between the bridge and nut is still the same.

The entire string length is what matters. Hence the reverse headstock, why Hendrix could bend his ass off on the upside down strats, etc.

[jnewman]

How will it up the tension? The distance between the bridge and nut is still the same.

The entire string length is what matters. Hence the reverse headstock, why Hendrix could bend his ass off on the upside down strats, etc.

It's arguable that it makes a difference for bending. Physics does back that up, but even then, you have it backwards - it's easier to bend a string which has more length past the nut, not harder (well, you have to bring the string up to the same tension regardless, but with more string past the nut, you have to bend it farther and it's easier per distance so it "feels" easier). Hendrix could bend his ass off on upside down strats because he was an amazing guitarist, not because the strat was upside down . It's also arguable that it could make the playing feel different. However, it's pretty hard to argue that it will change the actual tension of the string. The frequency of an oscillating, elastic string (i.e. a guitar or bass string) depends on the length of the oscillating string (the length that actually oscillates, i.e. saddle to nut), the mass of the string, the elastic coefficient of the string, and the tension of the string. For a given string type and scale length, there is ONE tension which achieves a certain frequency oscillation - it doesn't matter how much string there is past the nut.

Edited April 29, 2007 by jnewman

[DFW]

It's arguable that it makes a difference for bending. Physics does back that up, but even then, you have it backwards - it's easier to bend a string which has more length past the nut, not harder.

I disagree. Think about it for a second.

The frequency of an oscillating, elastic string (i.e. a guitar or bass string) depends on the length of the oscillating string (the length that actually oscillates, i.e. saddle to nut), the mass of the string, the elastic coefficient of the string, and the tension of the string. For a given string type and scale length, there is ONE tension which achieves a certain frequency oscillation - it doesn't matter how much string there is past the nut.

I disagree. We aren't talking about the frequency. Take a 6 inch string with 50 pounds of tension on it and with a pivot 1 inch from the edge and it will feel like a 6 inch string, but the pitch will be higher, and the circle of rotation tighter. It's like having a 38 inch scale length with a capo at the third fret or so. The tension will be higher.

[jnewman]

Actually, we are talking about the frequency. A given note corresponds to a specific frequency. The low E on a bass is 41.2 Hz. For the low E string to have the pitch E, it must vibrate at 41.2Hz. For a given type/thickness of string, with a given distance between the nut and saddle, that requires a specific tension.

[DFW]

Actually, we are talking about the frequency. A given note corresponds to a specific frequency. The low E on a bass is 41.2 Hz. For the low E string to have the pitch E, it must vibrate at 41.2Hz. For a given type/thickness of string, with a given distance between the nut and saddle, that requires a specific tension.

Which is tighter if the overall length is longer. The string doesn't stop at the nut, it stops at the tuning machine. The endpoint for tension is the anchor, not the pivots. The ferrule, not the saddle, the tuning machine, not the nut.

[jnewman]

Actually, the length of an oscillator is given by the distance between its outermost nodes, or points of zero oscillation that exist at given frequency of oscillation. Those occur at the saddle and nut. There may be a little buzz behind the bridge and beyond the nut, but it's not a part of the same oscillation system as the string between the saddle and nut. As an example, if you pluck the string between the nut and tuner, you get a really high pitched twang that dies out quickly and has nothing to do with the pitch of the string.

It's actually a pretty simple experiment to build two similar oscillating systems with anchors at one end and pulleys at the other, both the same distance apart. If you anchor wires on each, drape them over the pulleys, and hang the same weight of the end of both wires (which gives both strings equal tension, as by definition tension is the force applied along a string's axis), it doesn't matter how much wire hangs past the pulley, if you pluck either wire you get the same pitch note (vibration frequency). To more closely mirror the guitar system, you can anchor at one end, have another anchor, then a pulley and a string, with different distances between the second anchor and the pulley. Either way, you have the same tension and oscillating length and get the same pitch.

I admit that changing things past the nut and saddles can change in a minor way how a guitar feels and plays, and maybe to some extent how it sounds, but for a given string at a given length between saddle and nut, there is a unique resting tension which will result in a given pitch.

Either way, you're not going to convince me, and I probably won't convince you, so I think I'm done arguing . I do like your design and it looks like it's turning out really well - I look forward to seeing the results of this one and your other RV projects.

Edited April 29, 2007 by jnewman

[DFW]

Either way, you're not going to convince me, and I probably won't convince you, so I think I'm done arguing . I do like your design and it looks like it's turning out really well - I look forward to seeing the results of this one and your other RV projects.

Heh, well I'm just doing what I've been taight and experienced. Maybe all of the teachers build instruments that do somethin special.

[WezV]

Not this old chesnut!!

My experience with 5th strings on basses ( 34" scale length) tells me that they are useless on a bass with a top mounting bridge - far to floppy and sound a bit like a wet fart. But they seem to work better when strung through the body!!!

Maybe its the extra string length needed, or the increased break angle or any other combination of factors but i tell you what . . . if fodera is making basses with extra string length on the low B then there is something in it!!

maybe we should all be carefull about using the 'tension' word to describe this effect because Jnewman is right - if the tension changes then so does the note!!, but the effect does happen and cant be ignored - especially in the realm of ERB's where string "i really want to use a word other than tension" is crucial to getting these things to play correctly

[ElysianGuitars]

tension definately isn't the right term, maybe something like resistance to bending...

[Ben]

If I'm picturing this correctly in my head, I think that this percieved 'tension' or resistance to bending is actually the rate of increase in tension as the string is displaced from its equilibrium (unbent) position...

I think.

edit; In fact that would make a fair bit of sense... probably explain why strings with a higher resistance to bending sound less 'muddy' because the low frequency vibrations would probably decay into the higer frequency harmonics faster

Edited April 29, 2007 by Ben

[DFW]

Shot laquer and pore filled bass.

The soundbox fell from four feet and the trble upper bout binding got compressed, the top cracked and popped off the body. To repair I cut the top seperate from the binding with a razor and dumped a bunch of superglue in there, clamped close for 15 minutes, then spread the crack and stuck some titebond down in there, then clamped it closed for 45 minutes. It's all good, only sign of damage is the flat part of the binding, which isn't too noticable.

[fryovanni]

If I'm picturing this correctly in my head, I think that this percieved 'tension' or resistance to bending is actually the rate of increase in tension as the string is displaced from its equilibrium (unbent) position...

I think.

edit; In fact that would make a fair bit of sense... probably explain why strings with a higher resistance to bending sound less 'muddy' because the low frequency vibrations would probably decay into the higer frequency harmonics faster

Jnewman,WezV,Ben,ElysianGuitars- You guys have it right. Tension require to bring a string to pitch is a product of string mass and scale length. Elasticity of a string, friction in a system, and overall string length play a role in how the string acts(or feels?). Ideally a string should be supple however if we want to have similar length strings we need to change the mass(and a thick solid steel wire is not going to be as supple as a smaller one). Thus you get the wound string. It allows you to have a flexability and add mass. When you kink a string it loses elasticity, as strings age they stretch and lose elasticity, even when you fret a string you kink it a bit and it loses a bit of elasticity(this combined with grime wears strings out, and they lose their ability to freely and evenly vibrate). Because of this break angles play a role in how a string vibrates at each end of the scale(which of course effects the system as a whole, and can even muck with your intonation). Break angles are also a source of friction, and that will play a role in how the extra dead string length effects the elasticity of the string as a whole. Of course the more string you have in the entire system the more elasticity is potentially available(which will be modified by kinking and friction). One thing that is notable is that a larger wound string is pretty supple compaired to its mass, but is still not going to be as supple as a smaller gauge string. A little extra dead string length may help even that out a bit, or you may want to have lower elasticity on your larger strings. If you prefer the opposite effect you may choose to soften the smaller strings(by increasing the dead string length on them) for ease of bending.

One way or the other Tension required to bring a string to pitch is a product of scale length and string mass, and that tension is equal throughtout the string unless you have enough friction at a point in the system to totally stop the string from moving.

Peace,Rich

[ElysianGuitars]

any updates?

[DFW]

Oh yea, I finished the bass and the acoustic is due this friday so it should be done by then.