Rattlecan Minwax Poly

[guitar101]

I am using Minwax gloss poly on my guitar body but I am getting mixed results. It either goes down with a slight orange peel or if I spray it thicker I get small bubbles. I also have some gloss Minwax poly in a can and I tried wiping it on mixed with 30% Varsol but it isn't as shiney as the spray.. I am using Varsol as a cleaner for the body before spraying and a tack cloth. Also if I sand the poly out using 800 then 1500 and ending with 2000 grit wet/dry paper will it polish to a mirror finish. I think I should be able to lay down a final coat that doesn't need polishing. If Southpa is out there maybe he could wade in with some advice. I lay the guitar flat and then shoot one side at a time that seemed to help as he suggested in another post. For polishing I have some Turtle wax buffing compound and turtle Wax polish cleaner (finer grit). I was planning to pick up some Scratch X swirl and scratch remover for the final shine.

Tony...

[low end fuzz]

you really should be practicing on scrap;

first off, orange peel 'usually' happens from silicone or oils impregnating the finish; you can stop this by sealing everything in with the wood using shellac; drips on the other hand happen because of exxcessive spray, which your going to encounter more so with a rattlecan; these are sanded down flat with 220-320;

then you start with wet coats (because your base is flat any particles or drips you get can be gotten rid of before sanding through) only after your last coat is on (with plenty of curing tim) should you try to rub out the finish;

this time level it with 320, continue with 400, 600; 800 and then buffing compounds; turtle wax i find is a wast of time

a 3 phase compound with a swirl remover will give you the best results in a rattlecan stlye of spray;

also applying wax on anything and spraying over will look like a million little spray dots instead of a fresh coat so dont bother

[guitar101]

you really should be practicing on scrap;

first off, orange peel 'usually' happens from silicone or oils impregnating the finish; you can stop this by sealing everything in with the wood using shellac; drips on the other hand happen because of exxcessive spray, which your going to encounter more so with a rattlecan; these are sanded down flat with 220-320;

then you start with wet coats (because your base is flat any particles or drips you get can be gotten rid of before sanding through) only after your last coat is on (with plenty of curing tim) should you try to rub out the finish;

this time level it with 320, continue with 400, 600; 800 and then buffing compounds; turtle wax i find is a wast of time

a 3 phase compound with a swirl remover will give you the best results in a rattlecan stlye of spray;

also applying wax on anything and spraying over will look like a million little spray dots instead of a fresh coat so dont bother

I haven't used the wax yet. I will practice on some scrap birch I have. Stewmac finishing compounds any good?

[low end fuzz]

stewmac;

i own them and they work great; but so does my canadian tire brand polishes and they were a third the price;

although the coursest of them all is more like stew macs medium so you have to sand up to 800 before you start

[thegarehanman]

Low end fuzz, you really need to read up on finishing before you give advice, because a lot of your facts are off on both this thread and the other you posted in recently. Orange peel is not caused by oils or silicone. Orange peel is the result of finish that's been applied too heavily, or(more often than not), incorrect air pressure, typically too much. With a spray can your best bet is to probably hold the can away from the wood a bit more and/or apply thinner coats. Silicone on wood will cause bubbles or poor adhesion. Wood that's still drying and gassing off will often cause small bubbles in the finish.

I also would highly recommend against starting sanding at 320 grit, unless you're leveling some really uneven spots between coats. Even with a good bit of orange peel, I normally start sanding the last coat with 1000-wet, maybe 800 wet if it's really uneven.

I've used stewmac's polishing compounds too, but they didn't strike me as being more efficient or effective than other compounds. Lately I've been using a few different Mcguires brand compounds as I can pick them up at pretty much any automotive store.

Also, guitar101, don't jump from 800grit to 1500 grit. That will likely leave you with fine scratches or you'll be sanding for ages with the 1500 grit. Try to keep your jumps between grits to about 200 or 300. Although, I do go from 1500 grit to 2000 grit, but the coarse compound I use is equivalent to something like 2000 or something close to that, so I'm able to get the 1500 grit scratches out pretty easily. If you can't get rid of the orange peel, that's ok, just sand it out. I'm pretty sure that poly will need a good bit of time to dry, maybe more than a month. Don't try sanding or polishing until you can apply pressure to it with your thumbnail without it denting. Sand and polish before that point and there's a good chance the finish will move around after you're done and you'll have to do it again. Another thing I didn't mention is that there's a possibility you're getting bubbles because of putting it on too thick. Since it air dries, if the surface film cures before the rest of the finish, you could potentially get bubbles as the lower layers gas off. I'm not sure that's what's going on here, but it's a possibility.

peace,

russ

Edited April 16, 2007 by thegarehanman

[guitar101]

Low end fuzz, you really need to read up on finishing before you give advice, because a lot of your facts are off on both this thread and the other you posted in recently. Orange peel is not caused by oils or silicone. Orange peel is the result of finish that's been applied too heavily, or(more often than not), incorrect air pressure, typically too much. With a spray can your best bet is to probably hold the can away from the wood a bit more and/or apply thinner coats. Silicone on wood will cause bubbles or poor adhesion. Wood that's still drying and gassing off will often cause small bubbles in the finish.

I also would highly recommend against starting sanding at 320 grit, unless you're leveling some really uneven spots between coats. Even with a good bit of orange peel, I normally start sanding the last coat with 1000-wet, maybe 800 wet if it's really uneven.

I've used stewmac's polishing compounds too, but they didn't strike me as being more efficient or effective than other compounds. Lately I've been using a few different Mcguires brand compounds as I can pick them up at pretty much any automotive store.

Also, guitar101, don't jump from 800grit to 1500 grit. That will likely leave you with fine scratches or you'll be sanding for ages with the 1500 grit. Try to keep your jumps between grits to about 200 or 300. Although, I do go from 1500 grit to 2000 grit, but the coarse compound I use is equivalent to something like 2000 or something close to that, so I'm able to get the 1500 grit scratches out pretty easily. If you can't get rid of the orange peel, that's ok, just sand it out. I'm pretty sure that poly will need a good bit of time to dry, maybe more than a month. Don't try sanding or polishing until you can apply pressure to it with your thumbnail without it denting. Sand and polish before that point and there's a good chance the finish will move around after you're done and you'll have to do it again. Another thing I didn't mention is that there's a possibility you're getting bubbles because of putting it on too thick. Since it air dries, if the surface film cures before the rest of the finish, you could potentially get bubbles as the lower layers gas off. I'm not sure that's what's going on here, but it's a possibility.

peace,

russ

[/quo

I noticed that the orange peel happens on light coats. The bubbles are happening when I spray heavy. I agree with Southpa I need to clean up and avoid contamination. My work ares is tiny so it gets cluttered easily. I need to vacuum and put away everything that is not needed. He suggested temperature might be an issue and I am starting to think that it may be causing a problem on the light coats. The poly sets up before the lighter coats have a chance to flow because it is dense at low temp. ??? Speculation. Just how shiny can the finished product be after buffing? Is it similar to a fully cured coat of poly? Just so I know when to stop. I am new to finishing and wood work in general.

Tony...

[Southpa]

Yeah Tony, I'd figure your coats might be a bit on the thin side. Not enough mass for self levelling. As I mentioned in the PM I sent you I shoot 3 coats in each 1-hour session. Those 3 coats should be enough to flow out evenly if conditions are right ie. warm temperature and minimal air flow. You don't really want things to dry too quickly at this stage or all the flaws that occur during spraying set too quickly. Its just like working with those 2-part epoxies that you pour onto a table top. If its slow curing then gravity has a chance to take hold.

Heres a pic of my 1-piece maple tele body when finished.

Everything worked out perfectly and as a result there was no need to do any wetsanding or polishing.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Southpa

[thegarehanman]

Is this one of your spritzer bottle bursts, southpa? Sexy, sexy.

I suppose this is a good example of how finishes will differ in results depending on how they're applied, because with the stuff I spray, I'll get orange peel if I put too much down. I put down very thin, medium wet, coats to avoid orange peel, but I use a catylist cured poly.

guitar101, understand that the polyurethane you're using is far, far different from the finishes used on production guitars that's commonly referred to as "poly." apples and oranges, really.

Edited April 16, 2007 by thegarehanman

[guitar101]

Yeah Tony, I'd figure your coats might be a bit on the thin side. Not enough mass for self levelling. As I mentioned in the PM I sent you I shoot 3 coats in each 1-hour session. Those 3 coats should be enough to flow out evenly if conditions are right ie. warm temperature and minimal air flow. You don't really want things to dry too quickly at this stage or all the flaws that occur during spraying set too quickly. Its just like working with those 2-part epoxies that you pour onto a table top. If its slow curing then gravity has a chance to take hold.

Heres a pic of my 1-piece maple tele body when finished.

Everything worked out perfectly and as a result there was no need to do any wetsanding or polishing.

Beautiful..

Now I know what to shoot for. lol

Tony..

[guitar101]

Is this one of your spritzer bottle bursts, southpa? Sexy, sexy.

I suppose this is a good example of how finishes will differ in results depending on how they're applied, because with the stuff I spray, I'll get orange peel if I put too much down. I put down very thin, medium wet, coats to avoid orange peel, but I use a catylist cured poly.

guitar101, understand that the polyurethane you're using is far, far different from the finishes used on production guitars that's commonly referred to as "poly." apples and oranges, really.

I know but I wanted to do this myself. I don't have the equipment to shoot auto poly.

Tony..

[thegarehanman]

You don't want to shoot poly if you don't plan to do it often, it's not cheap to do it and do it safely, moreover. I saw that you asked if after buffing if it would be similar to a fully cured coat of poly and didn't know exactly what you were referring to. However, after sanding and buffing, if done properly and after the finish has fully cured, you should be able to get it back to the high gloss it had before you sanded it.

[Southpa]

There are so many different kinds of poly that its easy to get confused. I've been painting on and off for many years and I still don't have a good grasp of what all of those paint categories are. Epoxies, varathanes, urethanes, urethane enamels, polyurethanes, polyurethane resins, polyesters, nitrocellulose lacquers, acrylic lacquers, enamels, acrylics, acrylic urethanes, acrylic enamels, acrylic latex, the list goes on and to try to make sense of it all can be mind boggling. All you can do is try it out and see if it works. I know the BEST of all those paints are the polyurethane resins, natural high gloss and hard as rock. The downside is the expense, prep difficulty (adding thinners/hardeners and filtering) and they are a known carcinogenic. Mostly used on expensive fibreglass yachts.

[Sand Paper]

I'm pretty sure you can rent spray equipment. Most contractor grade finishes are designed to be applied in numerous ways, including airless spray. The best thing to do is to just ask someone in a paint store about what you're trying to do and they will set you in the right direction.

[westhemann]

glad you corrected all of that silicoln stuff,garehanman...

thickness of the coat is really critical to avoid orange peel with a spray can...i have never been able to lay it on as perfectly as that tele out of a spraycan though...

but like was said,orange peel is not the end of the world...i just consider it a minor nuisance because it is so easy to level out..especially with micromesh.

but i always spray the entire guitar at once,because they are all neck through or set neck at my house...and it is REALLY tough to get proper lighting around the entire guitar while it is hanging from the headstock.i need to make a hanging apparatus where i can spin,raise,and lower the guitar while spraying.

[low end fuzz]

as far as orange peel goes , i find your wrong, you dont have to agree with me ,and obviossly wont,

orange peel (or 'fish eyes') is from contanimates;

thick coats only (ime) leaves drips; if it is too thick and dries too fast you might get blushing; and/or (if this is what YOU call orange peel) trapped air will come out when its started to cure leaving pinholes in the finish;

is that what you are talking about? cause thats from the finish being cold(er than the wood)

[Southpa]

orange peel (or 'fish eyes') is from contanimates

They are NOT related, do some reading:

http://www.woodfinishsupply.com/LacTroubleShoot.html

[westhemann]

lef...you are WRONG...flat out.orange peel is completely different from fisheyes and pinholes.

[thegarehanman]

as far as orange peel goes , i find your wrong, you dont have to agree with me ,and obviossly wont,

orange peel (or 'fish eyes') is from contanimates;

thick coats only (ime) leaves drips; if it is too thick and dries too fast you might get blushing; and/or (if this is what YOU call orange peel) trapped air will come out when its started to cure leaving pinholes in the finish;

is that what you are talking about? cause thats from the finish being cold(er than the wood)

I typically call a finish that has a consistent pattern reminiscent of the peel of an orange, orange peel. Call me conventional.

But seriously, you can find me wrong, find me attractive, find me insolent. I don't care. However, until you know I'm wrong, I'd suggest you save both your breath and some embarrassment.

Telling someone who knows nothing about a subject the wrong thing is much worse than telling them nothing at all.

Edited April 18, 2007 by thegarehanman

[Hydrogeoman]

as far as orange peel goes , i find your wrong, you dont have to agree with me ,and obviossly wont,

orange peel (or 'fish eyes') is from contanimates;

thick coats only (ime) leaves drips; if it is too thick and dries too fast you might get blushing; and/or (if this is what YOU call orange peel) trapped air will come out when its started to cure leaving pinholes in the finish;

is that what you are talking about? cause thats from the finish being cold(er than the wood)

I typically call a finish that has a consistent pattern reminiscent of the peel of an orange, orange peel. Call me conventional.

But seriously, you can find me wrong, find me attractive, find me insolent. I don't care. However, until you know I'm wrong, I'd suggest you save both your breath and some embarrassment.

Telling someone who knows nothing about a subject the wrong thing is much worse than telling them nothing at all.

+1 Fish eyes and orange peel are entirely different animals. Not to bash you LEF but you may want to check these essential readings out to get a handle on terms, etc.

The Bible on Finishing

and

Dan's Book

[guitar101]

Yeah Tony, I'd figure your coats might be a bit on the thin side. Not enough mass for self levelling. As I mentioned in the PM I sent you I shoot 3 coats in each 1-hour session. Those 3 coats should be enough to flow out evenly if conditions are right ie. warm temperature and minimal air flow. You don't really want things to dry too quickly at this stage or all the flaws that occur during spraying set too quickly. Its just like working with those 2-part epoxies that you pour onto a table top. If its slow curing then gravity has a chance to take hold.

Heres a pic of my 1-piece maple tele body when finished.

Everything worked out perfectly and as a result there was no need to do any wetsanding or polishing.

I finally finished assembling the guitar. I got much better results when I warmed up the body and Poly and followed your instructions. I couldn't get it as smooth as your tele so I used wipe on poly to finish and sanded with 2000 grit and rubbing compound. I used No Touch Glass Stripper and Mcguires swirl and polish remover to finish. there are some small scratches between the clear coats but I had to stop before I went crazy. Thanks I posted some pictures under "Finally Finished" in the In Progerss forum. Thanks again

Tony...