AXofBSR Posted April 19, 2007 Report Share Posted April 19, 2007 Where do I begin with pickup making? I have a home-made winder that I made with an electric motor and a thread guide from a sewing machine. The big problem is finding parts. Here's the low down on my project: I want a HSS configuration with Ceramic magnets, I want chrome covers for all three pickups, and I want the singles to resemble burns trisonics. I'm going to wire them in series, plan on splitting the coils in the bucker, and have phase inversion switches for the single coils (which I'm hoping is all possible with a three way switch for each pickup, as in for the singles :Phase/On/Off and for the bucker: Split/On/Off)... Is it cheaper or easier to buy bobbins or can I make them myself for cheaper? What materials should I use for the bobbins? Where can I find ceramic pole magnets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 It is cheaper to make the bobbins yourself. Stewmac sells both forbon to make the bobbins yourself and ready made kits. Sheet of forbon costs 7,95 but a strat set of flatwork (top and bottom forbon flange with brass eyelets) is only2.40 If you are going to make only two SC style pickups: buy them, don’t make them. Ceramic magnetic rods are something I have never seen in the correct length/diameter. And you cannot cut ceramic magnets yourself. What I have seen is steel slug poles (like the slug side of a HB) and a ceramic bar magnet under the bobbin. I am a bit curious to why you want ceramic magnets for all your pickups. What are you aiming for tonally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXofBSR Posted April 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2007 It is cheaper to make the bobbins yourself. Stewmac sells both forbon to make the bobbins yourself and ready made kits. Sheet of forbon costs 7,95 but a strat set of flatwork (top and bottom forbon flange with brass eyelets) is only2.40 If you are going to make only two SC style pickups: buy them, don’t make them. Ceramic magnetic rods are something I have never seen in the correct length/diameter. And you cannot cut ceramic magnets yourself. What I have seen is steel slug poles (like the slug side of a HB) and a ceramic bar magnet under the bobbin. I am a bit curious to why you want ceramic magnets for all your pickups. What are you aiming for tonally? I'm aiming to have Brian May inspired solos and tones. He had Burns Trisonics which are all ceramics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crafty Posted April 21, 2007 Report Share Posted April 21, 2007 There are magnet suppliers all over the world that you can get the appropriate magnets from. Just Google it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted April 21, 2007 Report Share Posted April 21, 2007 I'm aiming to have Brian May inspired solos and tones. He had Burns Trisonics which are all ceramics. I don’t know how much you know about pickup making but the type of magnet really has very little to do with the sound of the pickup. Ceramic magnets alone will not produce a Brian May sound. The factor that really matters is the magnetic strength. And ceramic magnets are stronger than ALNICO 5. A stronger magnet adds more treble. When looking at the trisonics I would say that the main thing to consider while trying copying the trisonic sound isn’t the magnetic strength. It is the shape of the bobbin. The trisonics are 50% wider (.93 compared to 0.61 for a Strat) and I *think* that they are shorter. The reason I think so is the fact if it were the same height (as a Strat) and wider they would probably have a higher DC resistance (then the 7,5 Kohms that Kent Armstrong’s trisonics) . If you want the trisonic sound you need to get the correct specs for the trisonic bobbins. And you will not be able to fit a standard (chrome) Strat pickup cover on a wider pickup like the trisonics. There are magnet suppliers all over the world that you can get the appropriate magnets from. Just Google it. Good luck in finding a ferrite (ceramic) magnet that has the right dimensions. Most round ceramic magnets are in the shape of discs (short/wide). But if you do find them I would be very happy if you shared the source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayvo Posted April 21, 2007 Report Share Posted April 21, 2007 (edited) Apart from some of PG's members expertise you can also have a look here for more info dayvo Edited April 21, 2007 by dayvo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted April 21, 2007 Report Share Posted April 21, 2007 Jup, the pickup makers forum is a good resource. Quite a lot of pro winders there. They sometime are really meen to other in their discussions (even more so on the older ampage forum that transformed into their new forum) and they are not really happy to share knowledge with people outside their exclusive clup of pro winders. Makes you happy we have efficient moderators over here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted April 21, 2007 Report Share Posted April 21, 2007 Steve Kersting (Ampge.com) sells a variety of parts, including magents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 He is one of the few that have ceramic bar magnets availible together with ALL other stuff you need. He also offers 25% off for all WD and allparts products. But he don't carry ceramic rod magnets... Steven has a site for his pickups too. He shares a lot of his deep knowledge of pickup making there. Check out www.skguitar.com Not to mention that he is a really nice guy too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXofBSR Posted April 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 It seems as though the trisonics are made with a special bobbin. But from what I can tell Armstrong uses a ceramic bar magnet and steel rods (ala humbucker) for the trisonics though. I know that he uses 44ga wire and the ones I'm looking to sound like are wound 5000 times. I need to know what kind of material to use for the bobbins, I have no problem cutting them myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 (edited) I found this on the pickup maker’s forum: The original Burns Tri-Sonic pickups were an air coil with a ceramic magnet. The coils are wound on a collapsible former. Once the coil is wound to spec, the former is collapsed from the inside, and the coil is taped completely. Then its put into the cover with the magnet, and then the whole thing is epoxied so it won't be microphonic. The coil is very thin top to bottom, and there is no bobbin. The new Burns Tri-Sonics aren't made the same, and so don't sound the same either. The only one I know of that makes the Tri-Sonics correctly is Adeson in the UK, and I have a set of his pickups. I don't have anything to pu them in yet, but I will. He uses the actual equipment from the 50's that Burns made their pickups on, and uses the same methods to make them. The pickups are very reasonably priced too. Check out his site and email him about it...he's very friendly. http://www.adeson.co.uk/ Here's some stuff he told me about their pickups in an email. Regarding the coils - all early European pickups (Hofner / Framus / Hoyer etc..) were built this way. The coil is wound on a removeable chassis - and then completely wrapped in a special armature winding tape (takes ages to learn this - they are ridiculously delicate!). The whole thing is pulled tight - just like lacing up your boots. The magnets are vintage ceramic (similar to Alnico 2). They have been out of production since the early seventies - I have to have them custom made - and they cost a fortune!!! The coils are then placed arround the bar magnets (the holes in the chrome top covers are purely aesthetic). The whole thing is then glued solid to prevent the brass top covers from causing howling. This is exactly how they were made 40 years ago - and they sound great!!! Edited April 22, 2007 by SwedishLuthier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 If you can cope with the concept of steel poles and a ceramic bar magnet under the bobbins you can make the bobbin out of forbon (black fibre/paper material traditional for fender type pickups). You can also construct them the way fender pickups are done. Two flanges with a row of holes for the pole pieces. The tightly fitted pole pieces hold the flanges in place. Or you can add a drop of CA glue to be sure. You can get the forbon from Stewmac, SKguitars and other places. You will need some type of eyelets too. Stewmac carries the eyelets and the tool to use them. Or I can make them for you. PM me if you would like me to do it. Another way of doing this (and a way of getting it closer to original specs) is to wind the coil directly onto a bar magnet with added forbon flanges. On a side notes I think that 5000 turns sounds like very little. I have no experience with the real deal, but at www.brianmayworld.com it is stated that “A Tri-Sonic pick-up could be between 6KOhm (6000Ohms) to 8KOhm (8000Ohms).” If you use the more commonly available AWG42 you will have to wind between 7000 and 10 000 turns for that DC resistance. Of cause AWG42 will let more treble through (lower DC resistance compared to AWG44 -> less Treble attenuation) and make for a bulkier coil (will it fit in the cover?). It is also the number of turns, not the DC resistance that determines the output of the pickup. I have written about this before on this forum (“proving” it with physical formulas). If interested, pls do a search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXofBSR Posted April 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 If you can cope with the concept of steel poles and a ceramic bar magnet under the bobbins you can make the bobbin out of forbon (black fibre/paper material traditional for fender type pickups). You can also construct them the way fender pickups are done. Two flanges with a row of holes for the pole pieces. The tightly fitted pole pieces hold the flanges in place. Or you can add a drop of CA glue to be sure. You can get the forbon from Stewmac, SKguitars and other places. You will need some type of eyelets too. Stewmac carries the eyelets and the tool to use them. Or I can make them for you. PM me if you would like me to do it. Another way of doing this (and a way of getting it closer to original specs) is to wind the coil directly onto a bar magnet with added forbon flanges. On a side notes I think that 5000 turns sounds like very little. I have no experience with the real deal, but at www.brianmayworld.com it is stated that “A Tri-Sonic pick-up could be between 6KOhm (6000Ohms) to 8KOhm (8000Ohms).” If you use the more commonly available AWG42 you will have to wind between 7000 and 10 000 turns for that DC resistance. Of cause AWG42 will let more treble through (lower DC resistance compared to AWG44 -> less Treble attenuation) and make for a bulkier coil (will it fit in the cover?). It is also the number of turns, not the DC resistance that determines the output of the pickup. I have written about this before on this forum (“proving” it with physical formulas). If interested, pls do a search. http://www.brianmayworld.com/trisonics.htm "Tri-5 These pick-ups have a lower winding specification (5000 turns), which makes them brighter and closer to the original “vintage” pick-ups. " "Both types use Ceramic magnets and are wound with 44 gauge American size wire. The Middle pick-up is Reverse Wound/Reverse Polarity. They are available in Chrome or Gold." Now if I were to wind them straight on to a bar magnet.. how would I go about this (more specifically) do you have any resource on this method? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 Ahaaa! I didn’t see that! If I were to do it I would make a top and bottom flange around a “standing” bar magnet, pretty much like the fender pickups, but substituting the rod magnets with the bar. I might also tape the3 magnet with masking tape to cover the sharper edges to wear through the insulation. I have no idea if this will fit into ANY cover, but it is the easiest way to approximate the old manufacturing method Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXofBSR Posted April 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 Ahaaa! I didn’t see that! If I were to do it I would make a top and bottom flange around a “standing” bar magnet, pretty much like the fender pickups, but substituting the rod magnets with the bar. I might also tape the3 magnet with masking tape to cover the sharper edges to wear through the insulation. I have no idea if this will fit into ANY cover, but it is the easiest way to approximate the old manufacturing method That doesn't make a huge amount of sense... Lets define a few terms here: "'standing' bar magnet": meaning, get a bar magnet about the same height as the poles and stand it on its side? ... I wonder if it would be possible to make a cover... Anyways, I think black flatwork would look good, I've decided to go with all black hardware... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 "'standing' bar magnet": meaning, get a bar magnet about the same height as the poles and stand it on its side? ... I wonder if it would be possible to make a cover... Anyways, I think black flatwork would look good, I've decided to go with all black hardware... Yes. A bar magnet is what you traditionally use in a humbucker. There it is lying down (have a look here ). The magnet has it magnetic orientation left-right. If you flip the magnet 90 deg so that the magnetic orientation is up-down you will now have a standing bar magnet. Wind the wire directly onto the magnet and you will have something pretty close to the original design. You can make a top flange that doesn’t have any holes/don’t have an opening for the magnet. Just superglue the bar magnet to the top flange. That way the pickup will have a more discrete visual appearance. I have no idea about how to make covers for this. I would suggest trying to find spare parts covers for trisonics and fit the pickup into that. They must be available from somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba Pa Ti Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 i doubt theres any spares around for trisonics i was looking for some screws and none will fit, i emailed WD music asking if they stocked spares and said they could order some from the factory but never got back to me maybe they can find you some covers but its like trying to get blood out of a stone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXofBSR Posted April 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 i doubt theres any spares around for trisonics i was looking for some screws and none will fit, i emailed WD music asking if they stocked spares and said they could order some from the factory but never got back to me maybe they can find you some covers but its like trying to get blood out of a stone. I know a guy that owns a metal shop not to far from here and I'm gonna see if he can't press them... now... I've seen wooden pup covers... do they take anything away sonically? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba Pa Ti Posted April 24, 2007 Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 wooden trisonic covers? i would imagine (unless they are shielded inside) they would Add a load of hum into the mix (trisonics are not the quietest of pickups) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted April 24, 2007 Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 There is a lot of strange things happening in and around pickups (like eddy current, skin effect and so on) but all of those have one thing in common: They involve materials that are at least electrically conductive, and more often also magneticaly. Wood can only influence the sound in one way. A wooden cover have to be thicker then a metal one and the distance from the strings to the active parts of the pickup will be slightly longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXofBSR Posted April 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 There is a lot of strange things happening in and around pickups (like eddy current, skin effect and so on) but all of those have one thing in common: They involve materials that are at least electrically conductive, and more often also magneticaly. Wood can only influence the sound in one way. A wooden cover have to be thicker then a metal one and the distance from the strings to the active parts of the pickup will be slightly longer. Well, I have a lot of Purpleheart laying around... I was thinking of putting some inlay on top of it too... make some unique pup covers... What if I put some foil inside the cover? Wouldn't it help make up for the distance from the string to the pickup? Also, the bucker I'm making is gonna be fairly hot and the pickups will be wired in series... therefore... I don't think it would take away so much that I'd worry... Of course I might give it a few extra turns (The Tri-V's are 5000 wound the Tri-VI's are 6000, what if I wound it closer to 5500 times? I don't know a whole ton about pickups but logically speaking it would be hotter than the V and not as hot as the VI and tonally somewhere between...).... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted April 24, 2007 Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 Foil will not compensate for the distance AFAIK. Foil will shield the coil against electromagnetic interference (less hum) and might change the sound (compare a HB with and w/o cover). The problem isn’t the material itself. It is the difference in thickness between thin sheet metal and wood. That difference will place the actual coil further away from the strings. I wouldn’t worry too much about that part. With strong magnets that is a minor problem. the bucker I'm making is gonna be fairly hot and the pickups will be wired in series... therefore... I don't think it would take away so much that I'd worry... Of course I might give it a few extra turns (The Tri-V's are 5000 wound the Tri-VI's are 6000, what if I wound it closer to 5500 times? I don't know a whole ton about pickups but logically speaking it would be hotter than the V and not as hot as the VI and tonally somewhere between...).... A hot HB and traditional SCs with “only” 5000 to 6000 turns would not be a good match. A Fender Strat SC is wound to something around 7500 turns and they don’t really match a hot HB. Now this is a completely different beast. The ceramic magnet will add some output but I doubt that it will be enough. As I have no first person experience from winding this type of pickup I can only give you some other info as a reference. My T90 (Telecaster version ofP90 match most “normal” HBs in output and I wind them to 12000 turns for the bridge! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXofBSR Posted April 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 (edited) Foil will not compensate for the distance AFAIK. Foil will shield the coil against electromagnetic interference (less hum) and might change the sound (compare a HB with and w/o cover). The problem isn’t the material itself. It is the difference in thickness between thin sheet metal and wood. That difference will place the actual coil further away from the strings. I wouldn’t worry too much about that part. With strong magnets that is a minor problem. the bucker I'm making is gonna be fairly hot and the pickups will be wired in series... therefore... I don't think it would take away so much that I'd worry... Of course I might give it a few extra turns (The Tri-V's are 5000 wound the Tri-VI's are 6000, what if I wound it closer to 5500 times? I don't know a whole ton about pickups but logically speaking it would be hotter than the V and not as hot as the VI and tonally somewhere between...).... A hot HB and traditional SCs with “only†5000 to 6000 turns would not be a good match. A Fender Strat SC is wound to something around 7500 turns and they don’t really match a hot HB. Now this is a completely different beast. The ceramic magnet will add some output but I doubt that it will be enough. As I have no first person experience from winding this type of pickup I can only give you some other info as a reference. My T90 (Telecaster version ofP90 match most “normal†HBs in output and I wind them to 12000 turns for the bridge! I was thinking of making the humbucker with the same turns (per coil) as the singlecoils... well, what I mean to say is, wire two singles together to make a humbucker (I'm fairly sure that people do it that way...) Edited April 24, 2007 by AXofBSR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted April 25, 2007 Report Share Posted April 25, 2007 You can du that. It will work. But don't expect that HB to be very hot. Sound wise it will be a fairly traditional pickup when it comes to output. Hot HBs often start with 7000 turns/coil but more isn’t unusual. As I stated before I have no first hand experience of the trisonics. How are the output of those things compared to say a Strat, a Tele and a P90-equiped guitar? That information will help you get an even output from the pickups. If you want them to be even! I often wind a Strat set with falling numbers of turns (bridge = hottest) and most people think that they are pretty even in output. You have much more movement of the strings near the neck and that will induce more current in the neck pickup then the bridge (and middle). Now to me it sounds like you need to consider a lot of things before you do this. This I say without any attempt to discourage you. You just need to get all factors together before you make decisions. Hot HB and “vintage correct” trisonics doesn’t really seem to add up to a nice combination when looking at the specs. But then again if you make the HB a “double” SC and only run one of the coils of the HB together with any of the other SCs you will probably be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXofBSR Posted April 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2007 (edited) You can du that. It will work. But don't expect that HB to be very hot. Sound wise it will be a fairly traditional pickup when it comes to output. Hot HBs often start with 7000 turns/coil but more isn’t unusual. As I stated before I have no first hand experience of the trisonics. How are the output of those things compared to say a Strat, a Tele and a P90-equiped guitar? That information will help you get an even output from the pickups. If you want them to be even! I often wind a Strat set with falling numbers of turns (bridge = hottest) and most people think that they are pretty even in output. You have much more movement of the strings near the neck and that will induce more current in the neck pickup then the bridge (and middle). Now to me it sounds like you need to consider a lot of things before you do this. This I say without any attempt to discourage you. You just need to get all factors together before you make decisions. Hot HB and “vintage correct” trisonics doesn’t really seem to add up to a nice combination when looking at the specs. But then again if you make the HB a “double” SC and only run one of the coils of the HB together with any of the other SCs you will probably be fine. I know that the 5000 turns of a Tri-V gets 6.4k (because of the ceramic magnets)... I actually don't want the humbucker to be super-hot because after it gets so hot the distortion (I've found) loses definition and turns to mush... ... however... That still wont be enough... how could I tonally make something comparable to what would be described as a "Trisonic-Bucker"... Edited April 25, 2007 by AXofBSR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.