Black Limba Prs Mcarty

[bradleyjere]

So, I finally am getting going on my first build! This has been a very long process for me as I have been trying to get a workshop put together in my garage. Complicated by my wife and I expecting our first baby (Due October 23rd!!!) Anyway, I am excited to get going on this as I have been chomping at the bit for about a year and a half! I am doing most of the work at our local high school wood shop because they have a 10 week "class" that allows people from the community to use it so that is pretty sweet. They have every tool I could possibly need! And hopefully my garage workshop will be

Anyway, down to details. I am doing a PRS style using Mcarty templates. The body is going to be all black limba. I have not decided if I will try to carve the top or leave it as a flat top. I saw the new guitar from PRS that is the Mira and it is mostly a flat top with a few simple carved areas so I might do some sort of hybrid of that. The neck is going to be Honduras mahogany with either a birds eye maple or rosewood fretboard. I don't have my headstock veneer picked out yet but that will be decided after I choose the fretboard. I am going with the double action welded nut truss rod from Luthiers Mercantile. For my tailpiece I will be using some form of stop tail, but I have not picked one out yet. Does anyone know what PRS uses? I don't want to do a tune-o-matic bridge, I want to keep it fairly simple. I don't have any of the electronics picked out yet.

What I have completed so far:

Glued the black limba together to make my body blank and then ran it through a thickness sander to make it nice and uniform on both sides.

Cut the mahogany in half, turned one piece around and glued it back together to make it more stable.

As soon as I have my templates and truss rod I will be able to really get going! I will post pictures as often as I can.

I appreciate any feedback or advice that you guys have!

[bradleyjere]

Okay, I got my templates from guitarbuildingtemplates.com and I am very pleased with them! I also received my truss rod and that looks really good too. Since I am working out of the high school wood shop once a week I don't have any more progress, but I did want to post pics of the black limba billet. It doesn't have as much flame as some of the other examples I've seen, but I still think it's beautiful wood.

[maikman]

did you put the two pieces through a jointer before gluing them? it looks like theres a gap between them

[bradleyjere]

did you put the two pieces through a jointer before gluing them? it looks like theres a gap between them

Yes, I did run them through a jointer. That gap was not really there though. I took this picture just laying the wood out on the floor and if I held them together they were nearly perfect. But I wasn't going to take any chances!

[bradleyjere]

Okay, I made a little bit of progress today! I took my neck wood that I glued together and sanded down the face that will receive the fretboard. When I laid out the neck using my template I discovered that I had not accounted for the little "wings" that are on a PRS headstock. Not a big deal, I cut some extra material out of what will be the scrap part of the neck and glued a piece to each side of where the head will be located. Here are some pictures of my glue job.

I know it looks sloppy but I'm not concerned at this point because most of this wood is getting cut away. Also, the wood is a little wet because I wiped some of the excess glue off.

After that I had just enough time to get the template on the body and mark the profile that I will use when I band saw.

I included a few black and white pics because I think it shows the grain better than the color shots.

There is one thing that I did that I think is going to work out really great! I used the pieces of the template that get removed for routing the pickup cavities and drilled two holes through each of them. After I had the template positioned just right I ran a few screw through the holes into the body wood. Now I can remove the template and cut the profile with the band saw and then put the template back exactly where it came from for routing! It works just like a puzzle. I don't know if anybody else has done it this way but I think it's pretty slick.

[CrazyManAndy]

Nice job! I really like that template idea. Can't wait to see more, I love black limba.

CMA

Edited October 18, 2007 by CrazyManAndy

[capu]

....

There is one thing that I did that I think is going to work out really great! I used the pieces of the template that get removed for routing the pickup cavities and drilled two holes through each of them. After I had the template positioned just right I ran a few screw through the holes into the body wood. Now I can remove the template and cut the profile with the band saw and then put the template back exactly where it came from for routing! It works just like a puzzle. I don't know if anybody else has done it this way but I think it's pretty slick.

This is a very good idea. I do something similar with my templates: I don't cut out the pickup cavities so I use that area to firmly screw the template to the body blank in order to ensure that it will stay there when I profile the body with a guided router. The holes, in the next steps, are always my references (all the other templates are done to scree exactly in the same place --> an example is the neck pocket template).

I like PRSs (... I build one that I posted on this forum so if you have any question dont hesitate to ask), I'm sure you will do a wonderful work :-)

I'll stay tuned ;-)

[bradleyjere]

The holes, in the next steps, are always my references (all the other templates are done to scree exactly in the same place --> an example is the neck pocket template).

I am hoping to do something similar but I don't know if it worked yet. When I drilled the template for the bridge pick up I made a sandwich out of the pick up blanks hoping to be able to either switch the blanks or use the same blank with the neck routing template. But I agree that if this works out like the theory says it will, I will have a dead accurate guide for routing!

I am glad that someone else has used a similar method and been successful. It tells me I'm not crazy!

Thanks for the positive comments capu and CrazyManAndy!

[bradleyjere]

Today I discovered an difficult obstacle with the neck. When I glued the ears onto the headstock last week, I did not take the time to mark my headstock angle on the wood first. Now I don't know how to cut the headstock angle. So because of that I moved back to working on the body. I wasn't going to take any chances trying something hastily. I am going to start a new thread in Solid Body Guitar and Bass Chat to get some ideas!

I cut out the profile of the guitar on the band saw. I took my time and tried to get close to the line so I wouldn't have a lot of routing to do. When I went to route the profile I discovered that the cut was not as vertical as I would like. About one half of the thickness has material to route away while the other half falls away. So I will use an oscillating spindle sander to smooth it all out. It won't be exactly to my template anymore, but I am not concerned as long as it looks natural.

I was able to get a piece of black limba out of the scrap that is big enough for me to make a headstock veneer out of. The only issue is that it is not long enough for me to have the grain run in the same direction as the body. I am not sure if it will look okay if I have the grain run perpendicular to the body or some other random angle though. Anybody have any thoughts on that?

One other little thing I did is improve on my template registration idea. I realized that the screws I used had heads that stuck up above the template surface. If I left them like that I would have run into them with the router base. I removed those screws and replaced them with countersunk screws that lie just below the template surface. I redid the holes with a countersink bit and used some sand paper afterwards to get rid of the rough edges.

By the way, what do you all think I should use for my fretboard? I am going to go with either purple heart or rosewood.

So, that's what I got done tonight. It is rather satisfying to have the body shaped wood now. It feels like I am actually working on a guitar!

[Blackdog]

Great looking wood you have there !! It's going to look killer !!

I'm working on a somewhat similar project and it's also my first. I did the rough cut with a jigsaw, so I left plenty of material for final shaping with the router. I didn't know that the bandsaw would not keep the cut vertical, that's a pity. Still it doesn't look too serious from your picture, it should even out nicely. I guess next time you'll want to leave some more wood... Remember, this is a substractive process: you shape by removing wood. You can always remove some more if necessary, the opposite is a lot more difficult.

When I was about to start mine I was also exploring the possibility of doing a simpler carving on the top (like the Mira) or some sort of clever bevels like the SE Singlecut. In the end I went for a full carving, and it was not as difficult as I thought it would be. And it was quite fun too. Please carve that top !! That straight grained wood it's going to look killer with all the curves.

Are you going to angle the top ?? How much "top" are you going to set aside for carving ?? I didn't angle the top on mine and left 13mm for the carving. I found that it's a little too much, Next time I'll angle the top and set aside maybe 11mm at the highest point, it's going to be easier still to carve and still look nice and sexy.

For the headplate I would not use the grain running perpendicular. It will look odd. Maybe just settle for a truss rod cover made of limba, with the grain properly oriented.

It is rather great when it's no longer a plank and starts looking like a guitar, right ?? More of these satisfaction moments ahead: when you see it carved, when you fit the neck for the first time, when you feel the carved profile of your neck... And many more small milestones along the way, I'm sure. Enjoy it !!

Edited October 25, 2007 by Blackdog

[Mattia]

Use a veneer that matches the fingerboard if you must have a veneer, or just wait and see what it looks like once you've cut the headstock out.

[bradleyjere]

Are you going to angle the top ?? How much "top" are you going to set aside for carving ?? I didn't angle the top on mine and left 13mm for the carving. I found that it's a little too much, Next time I'll angle the top and set aside maybe 11mm at the highest point, it's going to be easier still to carve and still look nice and sexy.

I'm not sure what you mean by angle the top. Right now the body is just shy of 2" thick so I have plenty of material for carving. I will probably do the traditional PRS carve but I'll probably get an inexpensive piece of scrap wood to practice on first!

For the headplate I would not use the grain running perpendicular. It will look odd. Maybe just settle for a truss rod cover made of limba, with the grain properly oriented.

I agree that it would look odd to have the grain run perpendicular. I do have the option that I could bookmatch the piece of stock and then I can get the grain to run parallel with the body. That piece of stock is 2" thick as well so there is plenty of wood to work with.

It is rather great when it's no longer a plank and starts looking like a guitar, right ?? More of these satisfaction moments ahead: when you see it carved, when you fit the neck for the first time, when you feel the carved profile of your neck... And many more small milestones along the way, I'm sure. Enjoy it !!

Oh yeah, it is very satisfying to hit these milestones! When I needed to get the extra wood out of the neck to make it wide enough for the headstock I had a glimpse of that feeling because all of a sudden the rough piece of wood had a very slight neck shape. I am really looking forward to the entire process!

Use a veneer that matches the fingerboard if you must have a veneer, or just wait and see what it looks like once you've cut the headstock out.

I'm not sure how it would look to use the same wood as the fingerboard. That is an interesting thought though, I'll have to think about it! But if I do go with a veneer I want it glued on before I cut the headstock out. I think it would be a huge pain to cut it exactly and glue it properly.

[GregP]

I agree with the truss rod cover idea, but that's just me.

As for gluing "after the fact," you don't have to cut exactly first. You can glue on your veneer, rough cut it close, and then trim it flush using a... er... flush-trim router bit! Or something like a robo-sander, which would be friendlier on thin veneer with the kind of grain limba has.

Clamping the neck in such a way that you could do this isn't all that tricky, though it'd be juuuuust a touch trickier than just doing what you want to do and gluing first.

[Hector]

"I'm not sure what you mean by angle the top. Right now the body is just shy of 2" thick so I have plenty of material for carving. I will probably do the traditional PRS carve but I'll probably get an inexpensive piece of scrap wood to practice on first!"

PRS has angled tops, plus the neck angle. If you don't know what he meant, then do some research. and try to find a original prs to see what that is.

"I agree that it would look odd to have the grain run perpendicular. I do have the option that I could bookmatch the piece of stock and then I can get the grain to run parallel with the body. That piece of stock is 2" thick as well so there is plenty of wood to work with."

+1 on using the grain paralel with the body and neck and maybe all other wooden parts on the guitar.

"But if I do go with a veneer I want it glued on before I cut the headstock out. I think it would be a huge pain to cut it exactly and glue it properly."

Cut the headstock first, then glue the veneer and trim the overhang with a chisel or a knife. that's quite an easy task. you just have to read the wood and know what direction to go with the blade. You can also make your own veneer out of mahogany, I see that you're gonna have LOTS of wood left from that neck blank. IMHO you're wasting way too much wood.

And one last thing, I wouldn't make the neck using the templates. now that you've already glued the ears to the headstock part, there's no way to use that template. but there are many many ways to build a neck without templates.

My way is to taper the FB, cut the fret slots, make the scarf joint, glue the FB, cut the excess wood on the neck, use the safe-t planer to thickness the neck (I place a small piece of wood in the first fret to make the taper on the thickness of the neck) plane the headstock back, use the router to shape the headstock, glue the headstock overlay, trim the excess with a sharp chisel and knife, and then use the router with a pattern cutting bit to follow the FB and cut the neck flush with the fb.

I sometimes do these things in another order. but it has worked very well for me.

Edited October 25, 2007 by Hector

[Blackdog]

I'm not sure what you mean by angle the top. Right now the body is just shy of 2" thick so I have plenty of material for carving. I will probably do the traditional PRS carve but I'll probably get an inexpensive piece of scrap wood to practice on first!

Let me try to explain what I mean by angled top.

You are after the PRS general shape, so you've probably noticed that a roughly pear-shaped central area of the top, remains essentially flat after the carving. This is where the pickups and the bridge seat. Well, in a PRS this flat area is angled with respect to the flat back of the body (as in not parallel). On a maple-on-mahogany PRS, like the Customs or McCartys, the thickness of the mahogany back is constant all around the guitar while the maple cap tapers towards the neck joint area with it's highest point about where the bridge is.

Other carved-top designs like the Hamer Studios and Artists have the flat area of the top parallel to the back. The Les Paul is somewhat of a compromise as most of the top angle is where the fretboard sits on the top (following the neck angle) and the rest of the central area is roughly parallel to the back.

I didn't angled the top on mine, and I had to file down the top of the horns to make them look balanced. You can actually do it both ways, it's pretty much a matter of taste. The only functional consideration is that IF you angle the top, then you have to reference your neck angle to the top plane.

Hope this explanation makes sense... Has anybody got any pictures to illustrate this ??

[capu]

....

I didn't angled the top on mine, and I had to file down the top of the horns to make them look balanced. You can actually do it both ways, it's pretty much a matter of taste. The only functional consideration is that IF you angle the top, then you have to reference your neck angle to the top plane.

Hope this explanation makes sense... Has anybody got any pictures to illustrate this ??

My PRS copy has a flat top (parallel) like yours. In my opinion the easiest way is to do it flat because with angled neck you are not sure until you reach the end if all the elements (neck, pickups, BRIDGE,...) will be at the correct height ;-)

To solve the problem of the horns I worked on the curving shape.

You can see it here:

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...mp;#entry332072

[Hector]

I did mine with the angled top, just like prs does.

let me see if I can find a picture that shows this...

I don't see any problems with this because you get a flat surface to work on, just like on any other guitar.

I had no problems routing the pickup cavities and the neck pocket, my only advice would be to do the neck angle on the body, not on the neck (to avoid problems due to the neck taper)

[Mattia]

What's 'weird' about a headstock veneer that matches a fingerboard? I use rosewood and ebony veneers all the time on guitars with natural finished mahogany bodies. PRS often does as well, and so does pretty much every single acoustic guitar manufacturer in the world. It provides a nice contrast to the whole thing, touch of class, IMO.

I find it easiest to glue the veneer before cutting the headstock shape, or at least before final trimming of the headstock shape with a router. Easier to ensure even clamping all over everything and clean up the glue in one swift routing action.

[bradleyjere]

Wow, thanks for all the replies guys! I want to say up front here that it's great to hear all the different ideas. As a newbie woodworker and guitar builder I acknowledge that I have a lot to learn! I will try to evaluate every suggestion before I make my final decisions. Please don't be offended if I chose to not use yours!

I completely understand the angled top now. I own a PRS C22 and have played it for years but I never realized that angle was there. I have not decided at this point if I will do the angle or leave it flat. Is the angle part of the carving process? How do you go about making that feature?

I know that it looks like I am wasting a lot of wood on the neck but trust me, it will get used in future projects! An idea that someone had for me in the thread I created for this problem suggested gluing on additional scrap wood to make the sides all the same level. Then I can mark the elevation profile off my template once again.

my only advice would be to do the neck angle on the body, not on the neck (to avoid problems due to the neck taper)

I am intending to achieve my neck angle using the heel of the neck. The templates I have allow the fretboard surface to be completely flat. So the neck taper should not be effected at all.

For the headstock veneer I can see that there are a lot of options and I will have to think about which way I want to go. I will have to step back from the details and consider the project as a whole to make my decision. I can say for sure that I will not be using the black limba as the veneer but I will probably use it to make the truss rod cover instead. So I just need to decide if I will leave the headstock as mahogany or use the same wood as the fretboard. Again, my options are purple heart or rosewood.

Capu, that is a very beautiful guitar you made there! Congratulations on a job well done!

[Mattia]

I'd angle the neck. I think Hooglebug (or was it biliousfrog? Someone...) recently posted a thread of a carved top he was building as well as pictures of a router thicknessing jig with angled rails. Basically, all you need to do is set up two bits of scrap something (wood, something else) angled slightly over the body and use the router to plane it. Or, since it's limba, which is easy to plane, use a plane to do it. Handplane, like. I tend to angle from the bridge area to the neck joint area, entirely flat surface which becomes the new reference plane. A couple of pics of the one I did a good long while ago, very slap-dash unstable jury-rigged setup, far rougher surface than it could've been, but I was relatively short of funds, and even shorter on space and scrap wood. I've since build a more sturdy jig to do this sort of thing with. I knew I was going to carve/sand a whole lot more, so this was just for the rough reference surface. Did a spruce top recenty that I just planed with a handplane, which is faster, less noisy, and more satisfying if the wood's not, well, curly maple that's going to tear out on you!

http://www.xs4all.nl/~mvalente/guitarpics/pat_body_24.jpg

[Blackdog]

With respect to the neck angle there seems to be a forum preference and consesus that it is better to angle the neck pocket and keep the neck heel parallel with the fretboard.

FWIW PRS angles the neck heel instead of the neck pocket. As a matter of fact your templates reflect that. But be careful, the angle of the template may not be the angle you'll need in the end. If you do not angle the top it will definitely be much less. I ended up with 2 degrees neck angle for my build.

[bradleyjere]

Basically, all you need to do is set up two bits of scrap something (wood, something else) angled slightly over the body and use the router to plane it. Or, since it's limba, which is easy to plane, use a plane to do it. Handplane, like. I tend to angle from the bridge area to the neck joint area, entirely flat surface which becomes the new reference plane.

I like the router idea, I'll have to look up the thread that gives the details. I am not clear how you accomplish this with a hand plane.

By the way, I am still not clear on where the angle starts. It appears that it is right around where the bridge sits. I'll have to look at my guitar when I get home to see if I can get a better idea on this!

With respect to the neck angle there seems to be a forum preference and consesus that it is better to angle the neck pocket and keep the neck heel parallel with the fretboard.

FWIW PRS angles the neck heel instead of the neck pocket. As a matter of fact your templates reflect that. But be careful, the angle of the template may not be the angle you'll need in the end. If you do not angle the top it will definitely be much less. I ended up with 2 degrees neck angle for my build.

Do you happen to know of a thread that debates this issue? I would love to read through it and see all the details rather than ask you to type them all up again!

By the way, what is the best way to machine the neck angle in the pocket? A similar set up like above with a router on angled rails?

[hooglebug]

I think Hooglebug (or was it biliousfrog? Someone...) recently posted a thread of a carved top he was building as well as pictures of a router thicknessing jig with angled rails

it was me! yay iv been referenced! hehe

heres my very short thread in the tools bit

link

it works really well and is very easy too. hell if i can make it, anyone can!

[bradleyjere]

it was me! yay iv been referenced! hehe

heres my very short thread in the tools bit

link

it works really well and is very easy too. hell if i can make it, anyone can!

That looks like a great tool hooglebug! Thanks for posting the link to your thread on this topic, I would have gone crazy trying to find it!

[Blackdog]

By the way, I am still not clear on where the angle starts. It appears that it is right around where the bridge sits. I'll have to look at my guitar when I get home to see if I can get a better idea on this!

Do you happen to know of a thread that debates this issue? I would love to read through it and see all the details rather than ask you to type them all up again!

By the way, what is the best way to machine the neck angle in the pocket? A similar set up like above with a router on angled rails?

For the neck pocket vs. neck heel angle debate have a look at this thread. I believe the jigs involved are also mentioned there.

Regarding the top angle, if you're going to use a hardtail I would start the angle just behind the bridge. This way your bridge sits in the same plane of the pickups and is only affected by the neck angle. If you're building a tremolo guitar, I would start the top angle just in front of the bridge mounting screws. In this way the bridge sits parallel to the back of the guitar and you don't have to deal with strange parallax issues when routing the springs cavity. I don't have any personal experience on this, it's just a thought. My next build will have a tremolo and i will angle the top. And this is what "in principle" I plan to do.