avengers63 Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Lifted from a different thread. Who was it on here who did the junk wood tone post where they built a guitar from lesser quality lumber and then posted sound samples. I've always thought that pine could have the ability to make a nice tonewood given it was painted with a nice thick hardcoat to keep the body from denting easily. I've owned plywood guitars that sounded awesome and some pine has awesome grain patterns that could look really nice with a subnburst. My very first guitar was out of poplar and I'm glad I didn't kill a nice piece of black limba doing it so making one out of pine might not be that bad of an idea. It's funny you shoulf mention that. I was just talking with my brother-in-law about that thread last night, and that many folks had a hard time telling the difference between the chipboard ax and the "real" one. Before I attempt to do the carve on the PRS body I'm making, I'm trying it out on some cheap wood. Better to learn on it than on the "real" wood. I went to Home Depot and bought a 2" thick, 8" wide by 8' long piece of construction pine for just under $6. I made a body blank out of some of it, and am now waiting for my new bandsaw blades to come in so I can cut the shape. I'll be attacking it with the angle grinder/sanding disk very soon. When I do, I'll post pics in the thread But... I'm like you. I'm curious about how it'd sound. Even though it's cheap, construction-grade material, it's still solid wood. If the chipboard thing was virtually indescernable from "real" wood, can this be any different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlarremore Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 I was looking for that same thread not too long ago. I was wondering what king of wood it was. Jef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyonsdream Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 I'm going to watch the progress on this because after the one I have on the table right now, I'm building a guitar out of softer woods to see what the tone would be like. This debate will go on forever but for myself, I want to put it to rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan316 Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 I built a prototype body, with an Ibanez EX series neck and hardware. The body wood was a maple butcher's chopping block table. It's heavy as hell, looks brutish, but it just growls. Loud, obnoxious, and arrogant. Just the way I like it! As I was cutting it, I discovered that the router bit burned it nicely. So... torched it! Got the propane torch, and started scorching the whole body black. Wiped off the loose ash with a rag, and started layering on polyurethane. Turned out well enough, is comfy and playable. And the EMG's make it snarl and growl like a wolf. But... it's still crap wood! My third and final invocation of this design will have a longer top horn, white ash body, quilted maple top, carved, and fireburst top. THEN burnt soot black! My current test body, which is letting me figure out all my carving ideas, is nothing more than a 2x8" of pine, glued up. It does the job for test-shaping! So your idea is quite valid to do your PRS sculpting, just as I am. Where's those pics... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfDrum Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Telecasters used to be made from Pine if I remember rightly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesy Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Telecasters used to be made from Pine if I remember rightly. Yes they were, and there's tons of debate around and people making guitars from Pine. A quick google turns up some hits, including on this forum... http://www.tdpri.com/forum/index.php My first tryout of my pine-bodied (pine/ply/pine sandwich) guitar was very promising, despite the cheap single coil pickup mounted with double sided tape. I have just routed and mounted a humbucker, and after some more work, I'll reassemble it and try it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshvegas Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Can't help feeling someones name is going to be mentioned soon and the whole thread will explode into furious debate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 I'm not looking to start any "religious" battles here, but I was just discussing this topic with my father-in-law who is a master craftsman/clock maker/furniture maker and his opinion was that of all the woods to use for tone/resonance he would select a plywood core with ANY tonewood on top. The reason for this was that in his experience, plys were more stable than using a solid chunk of wood. Therefore, you could more reliably predict the tone you would get from a say 2" thick piece of birch/maple/mahogany ply and just use a veneer to pretty it up than to start off with a $100 piece of lumber not knowing what kind of status the wood is really in. Anyway - just a point to raise. I am way too new to the luthier trade to take stand yet and am very interested in following this thread. (I'm far more of a finisher than builder). Locally, a piece of 4'x8'X1" furniture grade birch/maple ply is about $45 and you could probably get 4 bodies out of it depending on design. Again, just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted July 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 (edited) Well, y'all can argue about it all you want. I just wanted to learn to carve, but not dork up the good wood. My curiosity got me thinking, and zionsdream's post made me talk about it here. Of course, if someone could provide a link verifying the pine telecasters, that's be really cool. I'm meaning one that will show actual production history - backup proof that it's not a bad idea. KPCRASH: I'm not going to bite your head off, especially considering you're openly stating that you're repeating someone elses statements. But... suggesting using plywood for guitars is looking to be told to shove off. Only the cheapest throw-away guitars are made from plywood. I'm not going to say anything about their construction stability, but there is a reason the big builders (who are constantly looking for ways to cut costs) use "real" wood instead of the vastly cheaper plywood. I'm not fightin'... I'm just sayin'. Edited July 8, 2008 by avengers63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 avengers - I TOTALLY AGREE!!! Just raised it purely from a "devil's advocate" position. I think ply is great for somethings... like Hondo's/Rondo's and my dog's house. Thanks for not shooting the messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim37 Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 people use bass wood that stuff is pretty cheap and well to be honest if you can get the sound you want out of a piece of pine then or plywood or hell mdf then why not. i mean isnt that the great thing about building your own you can do what ever you want if you want to build and no one can stop you if you get the desired results then more power to you. and depending on your pickup you could get away with almost anything i mean just think how much emg's color over the tone of a guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWishICouldShred Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 people use bass wood that stuff is pretty cheap and well to be honest if you can get the sound you want out of a piece of pine then or plywood or hell mdf then why not. i mean isnt that the great thing about building your own you can do what ever you want if you want to build and no one can stop you if you get the desired results then more power to you. and depending on your pickup you could get away with almost anything i mean just think how much emg's color over the tone of a guitar. This is true. There's even a company that specializes in Balsa guitars. I can't stand them but if you want a 4 lb strat, that's the right place to go. Plywood instruments dont bug me... it's only a matter of time before some kind of "hi tech carbon fiber impregnated laminate" comes out and becomes the next big thing, when in reality it's still just glorified plywood. Plywood guitars are made to play-- they don't sound incredible but at least you know what you're getting. No point in a nice finish cause the plys will show. It's a cheap, servicable, utilitarian solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesy Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 avengers - I TOTALLY AGREE!!! Just raised it purely from a "devil's advocate" position. I think ply is great for somethings... like Hondo's/Rondo's and my dog's house. Thanks for not shooting the messenger. Well don't shoot me either, but here's some info on plywood and guitars http://liutaiomottola.com/PrevPubs/Plywood/Plywood.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesy Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Well, y'all can argue about it all you want. I just wanted to learn to carve, but not dork up the good wood. My curiosity got me thinking, and zionsdream's post made me talk about it here. Of course, if someone could provide a link verifying the pine telecasters, that's be really cool. I'm meaning one that will show actual production history - backup proof that it's not a bad idea. You can still buy them... http://www.music123.com/Squier-by-Fender-C...400994.Music123 a thread about it... http://www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaster-disc...3-why-pine.html a page about early pine esquires... http://www.provide.net/~cfh/fender2.html more on pine teles... http://www.thegearpage.net/board/archive/i...p/t-241204.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted July 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 http://www.squierguitars.com/products/sear...rtno=0303025507 And from the Squire website. Thanks bluesy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Regarding Plywood. Plywood has advantages, and disadvantages. We make plywood all the time when building. The key difference is the quality of the plywood. There is nothing wrong with using 100% structurally sound, void free, high grade ply of a material that suits our needs. This type of material is often more expensive than solid wood, not your home depot ply. High grade Baltic Birch ply has taken favor for neck blocks and tail blocks on acoustics. It makes perfect sense as dimensional stability and strength requirements are a great match. Laminate sides are becoming popular. Made by laminating multiple structurally sound high grade laminates. Double tops are being used with good success, this is more of a composite contruction method, but takes on the similar concept of joining materials to gain an advantage). CF/spruce composite bracing is being used by some. We laminate neck stock, and enen add Carbon fiber laminates. Figured drop tops and carved tops have been used for a good long time. Often semi-hollow designs take advantage of this kind of cunstruction. The list can go on. Don't confuse this with using crappy wood though, "plywood" has a rep. for being scrap wood covered by nicer looking wood(and for the most part that is true, very high grade ply not withstanding). It is worth mentioning also that ply does not have to be unidirectional in terms of strength and grain orientation. One of the nice features of composites is that you can choose directional strength through orientation. Ply construction requires more skill, and understanding to pull of better results but allows design oportunities. Stay away from junk wood composites, that is the wrong direction, but go for it with creative well constructed composites. Luthiers have been doing it for hundreds of years Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X1TX Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Glendale guitars has a blurb on their site that says the early Tele used a pine body. They even sell pine bodies. Though I doubt they're routed from a board they picked up at Home Despot....... http://www.glendaleguitars.com/Bodies.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan316 Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 My only concern with using plywood, is sustain. Will plywood allow the vibrations to bounce back and forth, up and down the neck and body, to let a note ring out and sustain long enough to be, and here's the key word... MUSICAL? We all know, wood vibrates. Whether plywood, with all that extra glue embedded in there, can let a musical note sustain desirably, is my only fear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted July 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Glendale guitars has a blurb on their site that says the early Tele used a pine body. They even sell pine bodies. Though I doubt they're routed from a board they picked up at Home Despot....... No doubt! Just to repeat (in case anyone missed it): I only bought this construction grade pine because I wanted something cheap to learn how to do the carved tops with. That being said, I have to give serious consideration to getting some better grade pine and making a few bodies from it. Give it a semi-decent top and it might not be half bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshvegas Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 (edited) Alembics are pretty much just plywood..... discuss. Other than its sofness I can't see a reason for not using pine after all we have been using softwoods on acoustic sound boards or hundreds of years! why put a top on it pine has pretty cool grain! I'd use pine for bodies add a little stove and you'd have a little sauna! Edited July 8, 2008 by joshvegas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X1TX Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Glendale guitars has a blurb on their site that says the early Tele used a pine body. They even sell pine bodies. Though I doubt they're routed from a board they picked up at Home Despot....... No doubt! Just to repeat (in case anyone missed it): I only bought this construction grade pine because I wanted something cheap to learn how to do the carved tops with. That being said, I have to give serious consideration to getting some better grade pine and making a few bodies from it. Give it a semi-decent top and it might not be half bad. Didn't miss it. And when I finally get to the point of doing my own routing (I put things off, I know) that's exactly what I'll do. But, just like with plywood, there are differing grades. Get a good grade of pine and I'd bet it would make a pretty decent instrument. But for a practice piece, it's tough to beat a $5 piece that would likely yield several bodies. It would be great to use to prototype one if you had an idea for a funky body shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted July 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 But for a practice piece, it's tough to beat a $5 piece that would likely yield several bodies. It would be great to use to prototype one if you had an idea for a funky body shape. Amen brutha! $5 for 3-4 test blanks that can then be used as templates... sounds like a no-brainer to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan316 Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 ...But for a practice piece, it's tough to beat a $5 piece that would likely yield several bodies. It would be great to use to prototype one if you had an idea for a funky body shape. Exactly what I'm doing. And I'm ready to do another, to change the idea for my curved hooks in the body, to sculpt them deep into the body. More wood, Gaston! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 My only concern with using plywood, is sustain. Will plywood allow the vibrations to bounce back and forth, up and down the neck and body, to let a note ring out and sustain long enough to be, and here's the key word... MUSICAL? We all know, wood vibrates. Whether plywood, with all that extra glue embedded in there, can let a musical note sustain desirably, is my only fear. I think your question is loaded. How vibration or sound transmits may be something to consider(don't forget that is a dynamic variable, as temp. and moisture significantly effect this, and I am figuring you are considering orientation because it is a huge variable in the speed that sound travels through wood, Glue factor? I am sure it is a major factor, but probably so overshadowed by other factors that it is a small part of the equation when the joint is well made). At some point you have to look at wood for what it is, mostely fibers held together with glue(cellulose and lignin). How wood moves when forces act upon it may be a consideration, how heavy an instrument is will also effect the way it reacts with string vibraction. All real considerations. Also to be considered the effects of dimensional changes and stresses on the wood(again dynamic, but real). In the end I think I have come to the conclusion the glue/dampening debate is dead in my head as long as the joints are well made, I have never percieved a notable issue. You have to research, then apply what you learn to real world and see if it holds true. Trust the real world results, even if you can't explain it, then if you can recreate your results you may be on to something solid. If you can explain why something works one way in theory, yet the real worl results proves otherwise. The theory does not hold weight. Vibrations bouncing around being dampended by wood glue and this stopping the strings from vibrating? Placing a neoprene block under a string causes the string to stop vibrating? Both sound possible, but a real world test is likely the only way to evaluate. Even at that trying to isolate and quantify the effect of the glue is going to be very difficult in such a complex model, at least with the block you could add and subtract it for a better comparison. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 If you want to see my progress, take a look at this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.