sthell Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) Hello guys, my name is Robert, I'm 19, without any wood experience before and this is my first and probably last (at least for a while) guitar project. First of all, let me thank you for this great forum which I've been following (lurking in the shadows) for quite a while. Many of the threads/posts here have helped me and I've found a great deal of very useful information. I think it's time to present my project, still work in progress (soon to be finished). Specs: Body - Oak (20 years old, i've been lucky) Neck - Alder ( do not know for sure, it hasn't been build by my, bought it from a friend) Pick-ups: Gibson Dirty fingers neck, Seymour Duncan hotrails bridge Schaller TOM bridge Other hardware is low-budget The custom shape design is done by my as an graduating high-school project, it's purpose was to be ergonomic, well balanced, easy to work with (not), and still have an agressive shape. I didn't have the right tools for the project so i had to work in my kitchen (and a friends garage, poor guy) with brutal instruments (orbital sander, sanding paper, a hand-held band saw, and a tool that i don't know it's name - it's made of steel, it's long and has sharp teeth for taking off wood). Unfortunately i do not poses a router, and couldn't find one anywhere (actually all the tools are borrowed.) Right now I'm in the process of painting it with laquer, after i have sanded her done prior to painting it with Linseed oil, which was a big mistake, couse it never dries. I couldn't find any other types of oil in my country. I wish you best of Luck! later edit: the control cavity located at the back of the guitar was inspired from luthier Myka with his Custom Dragonfly project. Edited April 10, 2009 by sthell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops1983 Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Good effort sthell. Must of been pretty tough without many tools! But when there is will there is a way. Im abit concerned about your TOM bridge. The angle its on in regards to the fretboard seems abit severe. How did you work out the post placings? And the age old question, Do you have any neck angle on your neck pocket? You will find the action will be really high without any. If you have any questions along the way just ask on the forums, there is plenty of great builders on here who im sure would be willing to help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpm99 Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Good effort sthell. Must of been pretty tough without many tools! But when there is will there is a way. Im abit concerned about your TOM bridge. The angle its on in regards to the fretboard seems abit severe. How did you work out the post placings? And the age old question, Do you have any neck angle on your neck pocket? You will find the action will be really high without any. If you have any questions along the way just ask on the forums, there is plenty of great builders on here who im sure would be willing to help! +1 on what he said. Other than that, you are certainly to be congratulated on your innovation. That's a great accomplishment with such a limited array of tools. -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anderekel Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Ok, I see two, maybe three major problems, and at least one small one. First is as already mentioned the tune-o-matic is angled WAY too much. It should be offset an 1/8 inch on the bass side, you won't be able to tune it up correctly at all the way it is now. Second is the neck angle (this is the maybe problem) did you angle the neck so that it will line up well with the tune-o-matic? If not take a look and you should be able to shim it easily. Third problem is big one. You don't have any wood on either side of the neck. This will make it easy to move around and it probably won't ever be very stable, so you'll have tuning problems. The minor problem is that with the open control cavity it'll be easier to get dirt in there and the pots may get scratchy. So, on the up side, that's a really cool shape, I like it a lot. Oh, one other suggestion, and this is more personal preferance than anything, but in the future you might want to put the humbucker in the bridge and the single in the neck, the sound tends to be better balanced that way (depending but in general that's the case). The neck looks really nice as well, did you make that or buy it? And what's with the floyd nut? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sthell Posted April 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 (edited) @chops1983: Thank you! , hopefully all the effort will be worth it, i am aware of the fact that it doesn't look not even near to a pro guitar, had i had the right tools and experience, certainly things would have been better. The neck pocket has a 3-4 degree angle, just perfect so i have a very low action on the fretboard. The TOM might just be angled a bit too much, but i've tested it out somehow (slotted it and put some strings on it) and the "untuned" bridge, with all the saddles in middle position has either (in APTUNER) +20 (24 fret the small E) or -50 on the thick E (the big one, also at the 24th fret). At the 12th fret the seem to be kinda ok, with +/- 10 in direction. Ovcourse after i finnish the finish i'll try to do the right setup. @dpm99: I wouldn't consider an innovation doing a job with the "wrong" tools, wish i had them, things would have been much better. Thank you Dave! @anderekel: 1)Just as i replied chops1983, this might be indeed an issue. The thing why i angled it this much is because it was too wide and the extremical strings would have "fallen" off the fretboard. It was very hard obtaining the bridge in the first place, not to talk about exchanging it with another. 2) Intially i angled the neck along the "center" line of the guitar, and then calculated the position of the bridge acording to the 12 fret and centerline, right now bot extremal strings are at about 2 mm away from each margin of the fretboard (just that they don't fall off). Also the neck pocket has an angle of about 3-4 degrees so that the action is low and nice. 3) Never though of it like that :| I tried figuring out a lot of possible problems and avoinding them, but just could think of that one. i would have left some wood on if i had a router , just like a strat. I hope that the 4 bolts hold it in place and it doesn't move. 4) well the control cavity will be covered with a piece of plexy/wood in which the controls will rest, if it gets dirty, i'll clean it . I am really happy you like the shape, it took me a while to find the exact roundness/position for every curve so that it suits my needs and body and so that the guitar is also well balanced in any playing style. The guy that sold a friend of mine the pick-ups (he brought me them from the States) that i should put the Gibson in neck and the seymour duncan in bridge position. Also the seymour is actually a humbucker in single coil size. The neck was bought from a friend that had a guitar with a cheap floyd rose copy, which he converted to a hardtail so it would stop getting out of tune easily. He didn't need this neck anymore yey for me. I guess i can use to keep mine from getting out of tune easily . Thank you guys for the piece of advice and support, and excuse me for my bad english. Best of Luck! Happy to be here. later edit: i tried doing a setup a few minutes ago, but problems soon occured. on the first few strings dgbe (the lower ones) the intonation is corect at the 12th and ~22 fret (24 is off a bit), but on E and A at the 12th fret the guitar is out of tune with half a semitone/quarter-tone (-25 as one might have it). Is that reaaaly bad? Edited April 12, 2009 by sthell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anderekel Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Well, if you can tell it's not in tune, then it's bad. As far as the nut goes, do not tighten it down, the pitches change a little when it's tightened and without fine tuners on the bridge you'll never be in tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops1983 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 One of the main things i feel with a guitar is that it stays in tune and the intonation is spot on right down the fretboard. On my guitars i tune them once at the start of a set and then if i have a lead part in a song ill do a quick check and make sure its in tune(usually spot on and no adjustment has to be made). The last thing you want is for people to think you are hitting the wrong notes because your intonation is out. Im interested in the width of your neck at the nut and at the last fret. Why? Because if its a standard TOM bridge im not sure why the strings would run off the neck? So maybe it could be your neck taper. I think a pretty standard neck measurement is 43mm at the nut and 57mm at the last fret. All my guitars(Ibanez, washburn and a cheap strat copy neck has this taper) and is the taper i use on my personal necks. The other thing is maybe the actual spacings on the bridges saddles were filed to incorrect spacings. I buy the nashville TOM from stewmac so i can file my own spacings so that the strings run parallel right down the edge of the fretboard. Sthell maybe you could take a couple of close snaps of the bridge with the strings in so we can get a better idea of whats happening. Chad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sthell Posted April 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Here are the pictures. Sorry for the bad quality, but i do not have a camera. I confirm the neck width at the nut is 43 mm and at the last fret (24) it's ~57. the bridge width ( between E and e) is 57 mm. Right now i think i have exaggerated with the bridge angle . I guess i have to find some wood filler or smtg to do smtg about the holes and reposition my bridge. The bridge is an Schaller GTM-N: width 85mm, hole spacing 75mm also, this was the original wood: Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJE-Guitars Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Erm yes that bridge angle is exaggerated! 3.5mm difference is all that's required. By the looks of that you've essential got the a scale of 25.5" (I assume) to around 26" -26.5" on the low E. You really need to redo the bridge posts to get it hold any kind of tuning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sthell Posted April 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 would this be sufficient? Or do i have to redo both the posts? Thanks guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAI6 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 would this be sufficient? Or do i have to redo both the posts? Thanks guys! Is that sufficient? Depends. What does your ruler tell you...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sthell Posted April 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Well how do you actually calculate the scale for the thicker strings? I know the scale for the thinner ones is correct, but i messed up the angle. I am planning on using heavy gauge strings aprox. .10-.52. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops1983 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 (edited) String guage should not matter. Do you know the original scale length? If not i think the first thing for you to do is work out what guitar the neck came off and the scale length. Then i would advise you to goto stewmac's website and print off all the info on that scale length. It will give you a table with a nut to each fret measurement and a fret to fret measurement.I suggest you do a check of each fret to the nut just to be sure everything is ok. Fret scale calc It will also give you the bridge position from the nut to the treble side post. Then you usually have a tolerance of 1.5mm-3mm back on the bass side post. I set my TOM by working out on the body where the 22nd or last fret will line up when the neck is seated properly in the pocket and then measure back from that. So i find the nut to 22nd or last fret distance and take that from the nut to treble side post distance and mark these down the centreline. Use a flat square to draw your lines out past half the width of your bridge. Then mark anywhere between 1.5-3mm away from the nut on the centreline for your bass side post. Square out again. Use a rule and mark the width of your posts making sure you centre the bridge with the centreline. Finally with the neck in the pocket take a measurement from the nut to your treble side post and make sure it is the same as your overall measurement you got from stewmac. Hope this helps and the only real way to know it is correct is by measurement. Doublecheck before drilling Chad. Edited April 13, 2009 by chops1983 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJE-Guitars Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 You don't need to check every fret - just measure from the nut to the centre of the 12th fret double it and that's the scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 (edited) Sorry Robert, I don't think that neck is going to work. If the neck is placed exactly where you want it, as in your first picture?, then my eyeball tells me that the bridge will wind up where the single coil sized pickup hole currently is. I hope I am wrong and what I am seeing is just a matter of perspective but otherwise you should double check your measurements and make sure you FULLY understand the concept of "scale length" in guitar building. Its THE fundamental law for making a guitar tuneable and playable. So measure from the leading edge of the nut to the crown of 12th fret and make sure its the same distance as 12th fret to FIRST STRING bridge saddle. For a TOM bridge you must then angle the bridge back by about 1/8" to 1/4" . Thats just to compensate for the thicker strings and puts the bass note saddles into adjustable range. I also think the string - thru holes should be positioned closer to the bridge. Such a shallow angle to the bridge gives lousy tone and a sloppy feel when playing. Its nice to design something new purely by esthetics but there ARE conventions that must be maintained. Its your first guitar project and oak is a pretty heavy, solid wood to shape on your kitchen table with rudimentary tools and methods. For that I say, WELL DONE! , I prefer to use the living room and my friend's back yard on occasion. See if you can smooth things out before taking pictures. No offense but it looks a little "home made" as opposed to "hand crafted". Just use some 80 grit wrapped around a flat block (for the flat areas) and alternate with the same around a foam pad for curves, add some elbow grease and try to straighten out your lines and make the curves flow better. Edited April 13, 2009 by Southpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 It is likely that the bridge is too wide for the neck and was angled like that to accommodate the string spread...there are a few aspects of guitar design that are a given, nothing is more important than the scale length and such...you can do plenty of things with bodies and such, but some things are a given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad_Astra Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 (edited) Here's my build with a TOM. The distances are the same as on an Epiphone LP. So you see the angle. But don't listen to me. This is my first build ever and I still have the neck angle to worry about (bolt on, though). EDIT: Don't worry about the fretboard in the pic. It's not glued =) Edited April 13, 2009 by Ad_Astra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sthell Posted April 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Hi guys, sorry for my absence, but i though that it's betterr to do more work and less talk . It's been a bit hard here in this place finding transparent wood glue (to fill one of the bridge post holes) and remake some calculations in order to drill the other good one. I've replaced the bridge, seemes it was about 1.5 cm away from where it should have been. HaHa. Also for the first time i've connected the guitar to my pc and did a corect setup (so it works, intonation is alright and such, but i figure i have to lower string height on the treble side- it's a bit too high - 2/3 mm). Still need to sand down the old hole. There are a few frets where it doesn't get very well in tune. especially on the higher frets, but i guess that's ok for now. Now, to reply each one of you guys : @chops1983: Thanks man, you've been a real help, i did as you said, well, mostly. @SJE-Guitars: Yep, that's what "mostly" mean in the reply to chops. @Southpa: It's a perspective error, i find it looking odd too, but it's correct. I share your thoughts about the string through holes. First of all i need to build something to cover the wood where they exit the body, couse they'rer slowly eating through wood. Next i could build a sort of cilinder and put it behind the bridge and the strings will pass through under it. Will see about that after i play it a little (it's been a while since i've owned a guitar, i had to sell my vintage hollowbody in order to buy a wacom intous tablet ) I guess it looks a bit "homemade" ), but i've used 80 grit paper in progression towards 320, oak is very hard. This one especially. @psw: after more calculations, the bridge is actually good for this neck, don't know what i did wrong the first time i placed the bridge, guess a string on it would have been usefull. @Ad_Astra: Really sweet looking guitar and hardware. Happy building! Thank you guys once again and Thank you PG Forum! Will post updates asap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops1983 Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Looks much better sthell! And like we have all said the measurement and tuner will tell you if its correct. In regards to southpa and the string thru holes im interested in why the shallow angle makes "for lousy tone and sloppy when playing"? In guitarist magazine from the uk they did a special with Joe bonamassa and he wraps his strings right around his tailpiece because he prefers the tone and the action. I have just tried this on my guitar but as yet im still undecided. Maybe with a tailpiece this is fine? So southpa if you read this can you explain for me as im really interested in these kind of things. Cheers mate. Happy playing! Chad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Paper Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 The fill on the post hole looks like a knot, well done. You can always bust out some stain and glaze that during finishing and no one but you and us would know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sthell Posted April 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Hey again guys, sorry for being a brat but i need to ask, a few days ago i found a can of Nitro Laquer, well bought it on the "black market" as you might call it, pretty cheap 3$. I just applied the first hand of laquer and it was mostly absorbed by wood, still has a small coat around it, but it's pretty thin. i couldn't find any wood sealer so i had to skip that part. What should i do now? Sand it down with ~120 grit sandpaper, or more, and reapply? Thank you. Sorry for dumb questions, it's just that i don't want to mess up anything and don't want to start a new thread. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wood is good Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Woah, hold on there. Never go that coarse for a finish! What grit of sandpaper did you sand to before you sprayed? I wouldnt go with anything less than 400 after your first coat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sthell Posted April 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 (edited) somewhere around 240 i guess or 320, one of them, but i'm kinda running out of sandpaper. 400 is good to know Edited April 19, 2009 by sthell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sthell Posted April 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) Haha, it worked, still work in progress, but i love how it's turning out. Edited April 23, 2009 by sthell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanthus Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 That fretboard looks like you have a little chip in it. I hope it's still playable..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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