Pickup Position

[Crusader]

I’ve seen people make comments that traditional pickup positions are voodoo or just sales talk, and there is no ‘sweet spot’ I think it’s a good topic to discuss and here are my thoughts on the matter

I have done countless hours of experimenting moving pickups millimetre by millimetre and I find its best to stick to traditional pickup positions for optimal performance. I first did this in 1995 and again recently in 2008 and every time I come up with the same conclusions

The odd thing that came out of all my efforts though is regardless of scale length, the pickups work best in the same place as regular scale length. For example I made a Strat Copy with a Gibson scale length. To get the best Bridge + Middle pu sound it was best in the exact places as a Strat which has a ¾ inch longer scale

I also made a 28” baritone guitar and originally put the Bridge pickup at 1/16 of the scale to stick to tradition but it sounded more like an Oboe. After re-locating it to 40mm from the bridge (like a Strat) it sounded much better

So my conclusion is there are two main factors affecting sound from pickup position. The distance from the bridge and the harmonic nodes. I totally believe the nodes are the ‘sweet spot’ so my ultimate conclusion is – Regular scale lengths between 24 to 25 ½ inches make the most of both factors

To comment further - about the neck pu being on the 2nd octave node, some people have the notion that the theory is out the window once you fret a string. I had the same thoughts 30+ years ago but it was explained to me that even though a note is fretted, there is still some effect from the full length of the string

Experiment with it yourself (undistorted is better) Play on and around the 22nd fret and switch between Bridge and Neck. I have to admit its hard to pick the difference but you should still get a warmer tone from the Neck pickup. And by the way when you play on the 12th fret the Neck pickup becomes the centre of the fretted string length, so the “node” theory ‘doubles-up’

[WezV]

Experiment with it yourself (undistorted is better) Play on and around the 22nd fret and switch between Bridge and Neck. I have to admit its hard to pick the difference but you should still get a warmer tone from the Neck pickup.

i am not buying it.

tbh you can play any fret and swap between pickups, it gets warmer in the neck position every time, even with identical pickups.... that has nothing to do with nodes its distance from bridge - the anchor point of the string where the string is hardly vibrating at all. the same thing happens if you dont even plug in, pluck gently near the bridge pickup and then over the neck pickup and you will hear the same difference

so why does a 22 fret guitar have a warmer neck pickup tone than an otherwise identical 24 fret guitar?? Its not because of the pickup being under the 24th fret node, its because the pickup is further from the bridge/closer to the centre of the vibrating string length

i do believe the full length of the string has an affect as you suggest but if you are going to talk about the redundant string length then you need to start considering behind the nut and behind the bridge too and what affect that has. Now this extra string length varies on different models of guitar, if you think the full length of string determines some node positions rather than where you fret then this extra variable would mean that node position moves between different guitars, so by your argument teh sweet spot would not be in the same space between different guitars

Voodoo i tell thee

[NotYou]

I agree that there isn't a "sweet spot." I had this conversation with another guy in another forum before. He worked for a guitar company who had a formula for finding the nodes and he was all about it. It really doesn't make sense, though. The nodes change position over the top of the guitar when you use different fret. If you measure to find the correct node position, you're going to be off as soon as you start playing. Also, antinodes don't have much movement in terms of amplitude, so they aren't going change the sound much if they're located directly above the slugs of the pickup or if they're a little bit off. It will make a slight difference if the antinode is directly about the slug, but, like I said before, the nodes and antinodes change position every time you change frets so it's literally impossible to get it perfect.

I hope makes sense to somebody.

[WezV]

i do talk about sweet spots quite often when talking to bassists. but its a convienient term to express thats where i think the pickup will work best

[Keegan]

Only the vibrating length of the string has any effect on anything. The bridge is brighter because the higher harmonics have a larger relative amplitude on the string compared to the lower-order harmonics. In the neck position, the opposite is true.

If you could place a pickup anywhere along the string, it would go from the most trebly at the bridge to warmer as you approached the 12th fret, to brighter again as you went toward the nut.

[psw]

As you fret the strings the length of the string is changing...once you play around the 22nd fret with a neck pickup the length of the string will be stopped (equivalent to a bridge) right in front of the neck pickup and it will have similar characteristics to a bridge pickup as far as the harmonic balance.

Also, at the end point there are no vibrations pretty much...so at the bridge saddle or the fretted note...and so just next to it the strings are moving in a much smaller arc (especially the fundamental modes) so the output tends to be lower. This is why a bridge pickup requires a bit more power and is more consistant for lead work over the whole board when soloing.

Where pickup placement is important to my ears is in the magic combined positions...

To get the best Bridge + Middle pu sound it was best in the exact places as a Strat which has a ¾ inch longer scale

Which is why you noticed this effect...small changes can make big differences when two pickups are combined and the qualities of those pickups. A bridge middle combo like a start won't ever really sound as "straty" with an HB no matter how you split it in general. It has a lot to do with the distances between them. Similarly close HB's as on some 24 fret guitars do suffer when combined to my ears due to the lack of space between these big pickups.

But a lot is to do with the kinds of sound and the type of playing that you do with both the type of pickups and their positions. There is some voodoo of course...on a bass where you want a lot of thumping fundamental and you have a lot of string length to play with it is easier to hear better or more appropriate positions of pickups...on a guitar it is more subtle I guess. For a given guitar and pickup combination there may well be positions that work better than others...perhaps considering a particular players musical style.

pete

ps...some of this comes up with the sustainer thing....is there a sweet spot for that...is it under the 24th fret position. In general though, it is the need to get the driver as far away as the bridge pickup as you can and as close to the end of the neck is the best you can do which is why it is generally there. However, mine sustains fine right at the highest frets which is of course right up near the fretted end point of the string so there is a bit of voodoo there as well. It hints that you could reasonably be able to sustain a string from the bridge with the neck pickup for instance...but there would still need a fair bit of work and mid position drivers do seeme to produce weird harmonic effects and difficulties.

Edited May 9, 2009 by psw

[massive propagator]

Its pretty simple to prove that the 'node sweet spot' idea is nonsense.

Find a guitar where the distance between the neck pickup and the last fret is the same as the bridge pickup to the bridge. Fret any string here and play. Switching between the pickups should reveal they sound identical. The pickups need to be the same, obviously.

Only positon along the vibrating string matters. (the string is symmetrical, so in which direction the distance from the midpoint is measured is irrelevant)

[GGW]

Remember too, that when you're doing this type of test that the two pickups are probably not the same. The bridge tends to be wound hotter so they will sound a bit different. I also don't buy the sweet spot theory, unless you don't fret a note. In general, I believe the biggest sound difference is in the way the pickup handles notes as it gets closer to the fixed end. I hear the bridge as brighter, but more importantly, it picks up a different event envelope of the note. The note seems to twang or evolve more. I think this phenomina increases more rapidly as the pickup approaches the bridge and so there may be more fineness to placing this pickup. I invision that there is something going on with the way the harmonics damp at the end. I also agree about the distance between the two pickups affecting the combined tone significantly. Only a three single coil strat style makes that particular combined sound.

[Mitch]

I don't believe in string sweet spots.

I try to get the pickups as far apart as possible to get the widest range of tone.

[Our Souls inc.]

My $.02 ....

The pitch of the string changes as you pick , highest right next to the bridge , lowest out around the 12th fret . try it on an acoustic. strum a chord close to the bridge ,it's very sharp sounding . Strum it out around the 12th and it's all mellow and smooth-like.

"Sweet spot" will change along the scale length depending on the fretted note ( think pinch harmonics )

I have discovered that by turning the bridge pup tone knob back to 6ish ,it sounds exactly the same as my neck pup with the tone knob on 10 .

I vote 'voodoo' , but will admit that there are 'good /better/best' spots to mount the pups on any instrument. you don't want them too close together unless the magnets are reversed and too close to the bridge can be harsh and unyielding in tone.

I'll shut up now.

[borge]

My $.02 ....

The pitch of the string changes as you pick , highest right next to the bridge , lowest out around the 12th fret . try it on an acoustic. strum a chord close to the bridge ,it's very sharp sounding . Strum it out around the 12th and it's all mellow and smooth-like.

"Sweet spot" will change along the scale length depending on the fretted note ( think pinch harmonics )

The pitch is (pretty much) constant, the harmonic content changes with picking position.

Pinch harmonics come from emphasizing a particular harmonic by touching the string at a node which cancels other harmonics which have antinodes at that point, ie pinch harmonic on an open string, 24fret (or 5th fret) give the 3rd harmonic, but once you fret, the antinode moves and so to must the picking point, ie 2 fret=3rd harm. node at the 7th and '26th fret'

[Crusader]

Well guys I think you’re all tone deaf – lol

When I was messing around with pickup positions it was like tuning a radio

Can I ask how much experimenting and what methods did you use to come to your conclusions?

[WezV]

its not whether you can hear a difference that people are disagreeing with, its whether that difference is down to the reasons you suggest!!

experiments are hard because its very difficult to use an identical guitar with identical pickups in all positions. i reckon the best way to test it would be to set up a rail system to move the pickup along so you could try other positions without altering anything else. such guitars do exist but it wouldnt be too hard to set up something similar in a swimming pool routed srat

i am not going to bother because i know what works for me but if people are concerned then thats the best way to try it out

[Crusader]

Yes its true that experiments are hard and also a pickup on rails is a good idea. I had a pickup on a moveable plate once and thats how I was able to move it millimetre by millimetre. And as I said before I spent hours and hours, day after day tying to make decisions. This was concentrating on the middle pickup though

I think the "sweet spot" argument is mainly about the neck pickup and it probably started in the 1970's when lots of 24 fret guitars came on the market. While I was browsing around shops I heard the conversation many times. A customer picks out a guitar then realises its got 24 frets then procrastinates because of the neck pickup position. The salesman says the 'sweet spot' is only a myth just to make a sale. Maybe these days they want to sell more 22 fret guitars and reversed their story

I'd really like to experiment more with the neck pickup but the neck kind of gets in the way!

I believe if you install a single coil on the 2nd octave node then move it further from the bridge, it will sound warmer but not as nice

[dugg]

I hate to 'drop names', but I did these experiments in the late 70's with one of Ned Steinbergers first employees in the Brooklyn factory, Beo Morales. Our conclusion? No such thing as sweet spots. These days, I'm a fan of 'extreme placement' of pickups. That is to say, as far from, and as close to the bridge as possible.

[blazingblake]

I remember I think back in the late 80's or early 90's George Lynch was talking about having a moveable pickup. I can't remember him saying anything about it since.

[psw]

There have been a few guitars with sliding pickups...none particularly sucessful...there was an early iceman and that perspex guitar as I recall (can't recall the name).

I have a strat for testing electronics and such that can be used in this way...

I use double sided foam tape generally to hold the pickups in and can replicate control layouts on a temporary pickguard to ensure that everything works as it should and make modifications. It also allows of course for the moving around of pickups or comparison of things on the same guitar.

I've not ever really been tempted to do that much experimentation on the pickup position.

One thing that is often overlooked and perhaps more obvious on single coil pickups and combinations is the pickup height. Adjusting a middle pickup for instance can make a big difference to the inbetween sounds, and tilting them (high on the bass low on the treble for instance) can produce some cool (if subtle) variations.

[Keegan]

One thing that is often overlooked and perhaps more obvious on single coil pickups and combinations is the pickup height. Adjusting a middle pickup for instance can make a big difference to the inbetween sounds, and tilting them (high on the bass low on the treble for instance) can produce some cool (if subtle) variations.

Pickup height is crucial on a strat. I start with the neck pickup at the level of the pickguard and adjust the others for equal output from there, then tilt to get the strings pretty much even.

[WezV]

That is to say, as far from, and as close to the bridge as possible.

i dont go for the extremely close to the bridge one as the string just aint moving too much there

also, pickup height is vitally important... not just for single coils but for all pickups. for me its the last stage of a good setup

[Crusader]

Yes pickup height is very important especially when comparing different positions, you have to keep it consistant (I have to confess its one reason why I spent so long experimenting!)

Well I don't know why some people don't find "sweet spots" Dugg, what kind of guitars were you working on? Regular scale-length, baritones, bass guitars? And did you go past the 2nd octave node? (btw my name is Doug too lol) I haven't actually stated this yet, but I think the theories on regular scale-length guitars are out the window once you go past a certain length like baritone guitars and especially bass guitars (subject to further experimenting)

I've looked at what I've said so far and its like a bit here and a bit there so I want to go over it again and a maybe a few new things (probably should have said at first post!)

BRIDGE -I agree with what I read somewhere recently

The harmonic points are so weak around that area and they're so close together that its just a matter of preference. And I also agree with Wez- further from the bridge, the warmer the sound - and I don't like it too close to the bridge either. The 61 Re-issue SG bridge pu is too bright (which is probably why I find some of Angus Young's solos a bit ear-peircing)

MIDDLE (talking single coils here) - On a Strat is 100mm from the bridge which is not on a node, but move it too far off that point and you lose the unique Bridge+Middle sound

I tried it at 1/6 the scale length which produced a similar sound and also quite unique but only over a limited area of the fretboard, from about the 4th to the 9th fret. I also found this if I moved the Bridge and Middle together (keeping distance between them the same)

NECK - I haven't done extensive testing yet. But what strikes me is any guitar that has the pickup at 1/4 the scale length has a very distinct sound. And like my comments on the middle pickup if you move it you lose it (The area of the fretboard that gets that distint sound shrinks)

The biggest argument against the neck pu sweet spot is that when you fret a string its no longer at 1/4 of the sounding string length. But re-stating what was explained to me, the string still vibrates up to the nut and therefore still has an effect

I don't completely understand it myself and thats why I've done so much experimenting. But anyway let me put forward this theory;

Maybe the neck pickup has that distinct sound at the 2nd octave node because

- when playing open its at 1/4 the scale

- when playing at the 5th fret its 1/3 the length of the string being played

- when playing at the 12th fret its 1/2 the length of the string being played

- when playing at the 19th fret its 3/4 the length of the string being played

In other words no matter where you're playing its not far from a node

[WezV]

But re-stating what was explained to me, the string still vibrates up to the nut and therefore still has an effect

since we are re-stating stuff its important to remember the string doesn't stop vibrating at the nut, or the bridge- and that extra length of string varies between guitars

what you seem to be focusing on is that you loose the characteristic sound of certain positions when you move the pickup away from them. i think we all can agree on that - it still doesnt mean it has anything to do with those pesky nodes

[Crusader]

You beat me to it!

I wanted to get back and comment on that because most of what I said just now was pre-typed and it doesn't seem as if I've acknowledged what others have said

So you don't reckon the nodes have any effect on the sound (I hear ya) I think what I've said agrees with that - for the bridge and middle pickup, but that neck pickup, its that neck pickup! In hindsight I should have called this thread "Neck pickup position - no voodoo" But most of my argument is based on experiments on the bridge and middle pickup

It would be interesting to hear what "pro sweet-spot" people have to say. But this forum is all about venturing into new ideas and there wouldn't many here

Putting my experience aside one thing that occurs to me is that prior to the popularity of 24 fret guitars, every manufacturer put their neck pickup at the 2nd octave node. A lot of those old guitars only had 20 or 21 frets. I'm pretty sure guys like Leo Fender would have experimented and not just do the same as everyone else. I've never seen or heard of a guitar that has the pickup further up than the 2nd octave node

I can waffle on for hours but I gotta go

cheers

Doug

[massive propagator]

Yes pickup height is very important especially when comparing different positions, you have to keep it consistant (I have to confess its one reason why I spent so long experimenting!)

Well I don't know why some people don't find "sweet spots" Dugg, what kind of guitars were you working on? Regular scale-length, baritones, bass guitars? And did you go past the 2nd octave node? (btw my name is Doug too lol) I haven't actually stated this yet, but I think the theories on regular scale-length guitars are out the window once you go past a certain length like baritone guitars and especially bass guitars (subject to further experimenting)

I've looked at what I've said so far and its like a bit here and a bit there so I want to go over it again and a maybe a few new things (probably should have said at first post!)

BRIDGE -I agree with what I read somewhere recently

The harmonic points are so weak around that area and they're so close together that its just a matter of preference. And I also agree with Wez- further from the bridge, the warmer the sound - and I don't like it too close to the bridge either. The 61 Re-issue SG bridge pu is too bright (which is probably why I find some of Angus Young's solos a bit ear-peircing)

MIDDLE (talking single coils here) - On a Strat is 100mm from the bridge which is not on a node, but move it too far off that point and you lose the unique Bridge+Middle sound

I tried it at 1/6 the scale length which produced a similar sound and also quite unique but only over a limited area of the fretboard, from about the 4th to the 9th fret. I also found this if I moved the Bridge and Middle together (keeping distance between them the same)

NECK - I haven't done extensive testing yet. But what strikes me is any guitar that has the pickup at 1/4 the scale length has a very distinct sound. And like my comments on the middle pickup if you move it you lose it (The area of the fretboard that gets that distint sound shrinks)

The biggest argument against the neck pu sweet spot is that when you fret a string its no longer at 1/4 of the sounding string length. But re-stating what was explained to me, the string still vibrates up to the nut and therefore still has an effect

I don't completely understand it myself and thats why I've done so much experimenting. But anyway let me put forward this theory;

Maybe the neck pickup has that distinct sound at the 2nd octave node because

- when playing open its at 1/4 the scale

- when playing at the 5th fret its 1/3 the length of the string being played

- when playing at the 12th fret its 1/2 the length of the string being played

- when playing at the 19th fret its 3/4 the length of the string being played

In other words no matter where you're playing its not far from a node

Well surely the same thing applies to a neck pickup shifted down by two frets for a 24 fret neck.

When playing 2nd its at 1/4 of the scale, 1/3 at the 7th....

It is always near nodes too, wherever you are on the neck.

[NotYou]

I don't mean to sound anàl(damn censored words), but you guys are looking for antinodes, not nodes. Nodes don't actually move. If you could pick up the sound from only the node, it would be completely mute because there is literally no movement. Antinodes are the point of highest amplitude in the wave directly between two nodes.

Edited May 14, 2009 by NotYou

[WezV]

i think we did actually discuss that in a previous thread, so its not that its being ignored

i think i did point out that to actually have a pickup sense a node point exactly it would need to have a very small view of the string, so a very narrow and focused pickup, and that it would be pointless since the string wasnt moving at that point

we got a good answer back, to paraphrase it was suggested that fousing AROUND the node point actually gave you quite a good picture of the strings vibration. looking at you diagram you can see the antinode spends half its time further away from the pickup, if you are focused with a pickups centre on the node you always have some string moving away from the pickup and some moving towards it. tbh i dont quite buy it but i can see it makes some sense

however, none of this changes the fact that nodes move when you change the length of the bloody string