Scale Length Off?

[sockwalker]

I still have the original nut that came with the kit. I never tried it simply because it didn't fit the slot. It's about .025" to narrow. The new nut fit perfect for the width of the slot. Maybe glue in a small piece of wood on the back side of the slot so that the original nut fits?

[Workingman]

Why not try it without glueing the shim just to see how it works?

[Oaksong]

Why not try it without glueing the shim just to see how it works?

Ok, i can weigh in on this.

This problem actually exists on MOST guitars, to some degree. Equal tempered tuning isn't accurate. The first few frets of most guitars actually are slightly sharp. Look into the Buzz Feiten tuning system - it talks about this.

Basically, guitars with a straight nut cannot intonate perfectly across the fretboard. Our ears generally don't notice things being off. Sadly, mine do, and this drives me kinda crazy.

You could also get an earvana nut, for maybe 30-40 bucks, and this works to solve the same problem.

[Geo]

Why not try it without glueing the shim just to see how it works?

This problem actually exists on MOST guitars, to some degree. Equal tempered tuning isn't accurate. The first few frets of most guitars actually are slightly sharp. Look into the Buzz Feiten tuning system - it talks about this.

Basically, guitars with a straight nut cannot intonate perfectly across the fretboard. Our ears generally don't notice things being off. Sadly, mine do, and this drives me kinda crazy.

I have my gripes with equal temperament too, but I don't know if that's the problem here. I'm guessing that sockwalker has played other guitars and that most equal-tempered guitars sound "in-tune" to him. (We all know they play every interval out of tune except octaves.) But equal temperament is generally close enough for most people, and something else is wrong with this guitar, otherwise he wouldn't have noticed a problem. For most people to notice something being "out of tune", it must be seriously out of tune, and the tuning inaccuracies of equal temperament are generally small enough that most people don't notice them.

Also I think he was using a tuner rather than his ear. I'm pretty sure that tuner would be set up for equal temperament, not just intonation or another system. So if the tuner says it's out of tune, it's out of tune with equal temperament. An equal tempered guitar is the goal here, since it has a normal nut and straight frets.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Geo

[j. pierce]

Could a poorly cut nut, one where the strings "edge point" is being made at the back of the nut, rather than the edge of the nut by the fingerboard be the issue here?

[sockwalker]

Cool. These last few post have helped out alot. I did notice it being off initially by ear and confirmed with the tuner. Lowering the nut height has improved it and is almost undetectable to me by ear now, though I still see it on the tuner. What I have gathered from these last few posts is to not expect perfection on every fret. Particularly the ones close to the nut. I think I may have been expecting to much. More than likely, a bit more work on the nut and all will be good. I'm hoping to be able to mess with it some more later today or tomorrow. I'll post the results.

Thanks all,

Ken

[Oaksong]

Why not try it without glueing the shim just to see how it works?

This problem actually exists on MOST guitars, to some degree. Equal tempered tuning isn't accurate. The first few frets of most guitars actually are slightly sharp. Look into the Buzz Feiten tuning system - it talks about this.

Basically, guitars with a straight nut cannot intonate perfectly across the fretboard. Our ears generally don't notice things being off. Sadly, mine do, and this drives me kinda crazy.

I have my gripes with equal temperament too, but I don't know if that's the problem here. I'm guessing that sockwalker has played other guitars and that most equal-tempered guitars sound "in-tune" to him. (We all know they play every interval out of tune except octaves.) But equal temperament is generally close enough for most people, and something else is wrong with this guitar, otherwise he wouldn't have noticed a problem. For most people to notice something being "out of tune", it must be seriously out of tune, and the tuning inaccuracies of equal temperament are generally small enough that most people don't notice them.

Also I think he was using a tuner rather than his ear. I'm pretty sure that tuner would be set up for equal temperament, not just intonation or another system. So if the tuner says it's out of tune, it's out of tune with equal temperament. An equal tempered guitar is the goal here, since it has a normal nut and straight frets.

Ok, I wasn't fully clear.

Guitars are OUT OF TUNE with equal temperment. The strings are different widths and press down different amounts depending on where you are on the fretboard AND that tension is spread across the string differently as you go from the nut toward teh bridge. Pick up a few guitars and put them through a tuner and you will see that even an "in tune" guitar can be out of tune as he is describing.

The easy answer is to move the nut forward a bit, as this helps balance things out.

[sockwalker]

I just got out my Epi Paul and checked it with the tuner down the first few frets. I think I am expecting to much. I know it's right. It's showing the same properties. I assumed that where you fretted a string, that's the note you would get. When I saw the kit guitar going a bit sharp or flat below the 12th, I got worried that something was amiss. Looks like all I really need to do is get the nut height down a bit more on the high E side and that will be it. Nut height. I'll have to remember that. I never have had one so high that it caused this kind of problem. I also learned not to expect perfection on ever fret all the way down the fingerboard. I guess my standards were too high. Not necessarily a bad thing overall.

Again thanks to all. I think I have a much better handle on what is going on and what to expect.

[Oaksong]

I just got out my Epi Paul and checked it with the tuner down the first few frets. I think I am expecting to much. I know it's right. It's showing the same properties. I assumed that where you fretted a string, that's the note you would get. When I saw the kit guitar going a bit sharp or flat below the 12th, I got worried that something was amiss. Looks like all I really need to do is get the nut height down a bit more on the high E side and that will be it. Nut height. I'll have to remember that. I never have had one so high that it caused this kind of problem. I also learned not to expect perfection on ever fret all the way down the fingerboard. I guess my standards were too high. Not necessarily a bad thing overall.

Again thanks to all. I think I have a much better handle on what is going on and what to expect.

If you want better intonation, go get a Earvana nut.

This is an issue with all guitars, and at least partially solveable. I think modern companies are kinda retarded for not solving it already...

[Geo]

If it sounds in-tune to you, it's in tune, even if the tuner says it's off. If your ear is good and you can hear the problem, then maybe you need something other than "normal". I just wouldn't spend too much on a kit guitar.

That's my take anyway.