Non-traditional Hardware?

[MrMuckle]

Do any of you know of someone making and selling alternatives to your standard bridges and tuners? I love the design of these tuners:

http://www.toone-townsend.com/treble.html

...but they are for headless guitars. I like the aesthetic of his bridges also, but they don't appear to be for sale yet. So, does anyone out there make and sell hardware of a different or unusual design? Your help would be greatly appreciated.

[MrMuckle]

OK, how 'bout this: Have any of you designed a bridge and/or tuners in a 3D program and then had them made overseas?

[RestorationAD]

OK, how 'bout this: Have any of you designed a bridge and/or tuners in a 3D program and then had them made overseas?

check with http://guitarworks.thestrandbergs.com/ ola is a member here.

[MrMuckle]

These guys didn't come up on my initial Google search. Thanks for the link!

[feral_smurf]

This is off topic, but just browsing through that site, the designer mentions his "unique" trapezoid neck profile. Doesn't pauliemc do the same thing? I'm just wondering as apparently the guy on the site has applied for a patent for it

[davee5]

If that guy wants to waste his time and money chasing a patent, that's his call. (Note the remainder of this post is relevant to US IP law only)

A trapezoidal neck doesn't strike me as particularly "non-obvious to someone well versed in the art," nor particularly defendable in court anyhow. It's a veeery broad functional improvement, which means it likely won't pass, or if it's a design patent (not a patent of invention) then it's not very useful in a litigious context.

My guess is this guy is slightly misusing the "patent pending" legal phrase. Legally this means you have (1) had an officially accepted application for a provisional patent and (2) have, or are planning to, file for a full-patent within one year of filing for the provisional or publicly showing your invention.

That's it. Patent Pending, as a legal status, give you one significant advantage: IF the patent you applied for, within a year of the provisional or the public revelation, is granted to you at a later date (typically many years later) THEN you may extend the legal rights that are commensurate with said patent back until the date your provisional patent was applied for.

Note that a patent only grants you one significant right: to sue the pants off anyone else who (A) manufactures, ( uses, or © sells work that is legally and definably derivative of your patent. That it, it's a tool of litigation only.

So, why is a provisional patent is important? Because it costs a little over $100 to file and the language requires no legal expertise. (Nobody reads it when it's filed, it only gets read if your patent is contended by other people... in which case they'll dig it up and see where you started, so fudging it entirely is not super advisable.)

Why this Patent Pending business is deceiving...

That mean any of you guys can fill out a very, very simple form with any idea you want, mail out a check for $120 to the USPTO, and suddenly you, you dear forum reader, will also be able to claim you have a "Patent Pending." Any could apply for a patent on breathing, or sand, or guitars, and you can legally claim you have a patent pending (for one year) on that item.

After that year, since you will obviously never have a patent granted to you for breathing, you will have merely wasted some paper and $120.

Why this Patent Pending business is useful...

Let's say you apply for a real patent on your genuinely innovative electric guitar sustainer. You do the provisional yourself and then pay a real lawyer lots real money to get all thelegal language in order (do NOT do this yourself, you will certainly mess up the wording and that single misplaced "shall" can invalidate your patent). If it comes through you have a real patent of invention, along with legal rights dating back to that first filing!

Let's also suppose that, in the meantime, some evil guitar corporation (let's call it Gitar Senter) has copied your design, or come up with it independently but later, and started making and selling the device that matches yours. For the 4 years that it takes to get your patent granted they make 1,000 units and $200,000. Once your patent is in you can start to excercise that legal right to sue them all the way back to your filing date! YAY!

So you can sue them to stop making the devices, and selling the devices. Then you can sue them for damages projected from their sales, damage to your brand or business, damage to your mental health, legal fees, etc, etc. Money money money, waaaay more than the $200K they profited in the first place.

This ends up meaning that "Patent Pending" becomes a very powerful tool for the Little-Guy against large corporations (in theory). With $120 you can gain enough legal leverage, that lasts until your filing is granted or rejected (remember, that's many years of limbo), to put some real hurt on that company. It's a powerful deterrent to others if the patentability of the device is credible. The credibility of the claim, then, is the real kicker.

If you have a "Patent Pending" provisional patent filing that will never turn into a real patent, it poses no threat to competitors. If you have a Patent Pending that may very well come through, the competition has to think carefully about their next move (go for it anyway and tie you up in litigation until your broke if they need to will likely be the response, FYI). I don't think the trapezoidal neck has much of a chance at becoming a real patent, so if I were Warmoth it wouldn't bother me much.

Lastly, as we have all just noted, "Patent Pending" is a great marketing tool. To those who don't know what it legally implies, it makes the product seem super innovative and like the company has their stuff together. Sometime yes, most times no.

After all, Gibson never did get that Patent they Applied For on those pickups from way back when...

Like most things in life, your mileage may vary.

-Dave

(Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, I am an engineer and designer who knows a thing or two about IP law. I am not truly qualified to give legal advice, so think for yourself like you always should.)

[Drak]

All the talk about patents notwithstanding, Rick Toone is an EXTREMELY talented and innovative luthier, he has more creativity in his pinky than I have in my whole body.

...Just sayin', he isn't just a 'that guy', he is a -very- talented individual who's work is phenomenally good and I have several pics of his work I use to drive myself, among the thousands of other guitar pics I have and use to drive the creative juices.

[RestorationAD]

All the talk about patents notwithstanding, Rick Toone is an EXTREMELY talented and innovative luthier, he has more creativity in his pinky than I have in my whole body.

...Just sayin', he isn't just a 'that guy', he is a -very- talented individual who's work is phenomenally good and I have several pics of his work I use to drive myself, among the thousands of other guitar pics I have and use to drive the creative juices.

+++++1 -Very Talented and Highly Inspirational. Thank You Mr. Toone for sharing.

And he uses the creative commons license a lot. Gotta love open source guys.

[Ricky Anderson]

can I join?

check this one out: Aldridge Empire

you can see one of his works in my build thread Made in Indonesia

[ElRay]

A trapezoidal neck doesn't strike me as particularly "non-obvious to someone well versed in the art," nor particularly defendable in court anyhow. It's a veeery broad functional improvement, which means it likely won't pass, or if it's a design patent (not a patent of invention) then it's not very useful in a litigious context.

... and the other thing that would hurt him is that he published pictures of it long before he started down the patent/licensing route.

All the talk about patents notwithstanding, Rick Toone is an EXTREMELY talented and innovative luthier, he has more creativity in his pinky than I have in my whole body.

and:

And he uses the creative commons license a lot. Gotta love open source guys.

which is why I'd gladly ask "permission" for using any of his stuff, even if there's technically no legal requirement.

Ray

Edited September 3, 2010 by ElRay