Prostheta Posted October 10, 2022 Report Share Posted October 10, 2022 I went through a period of practicing shellac finishes using everything from pumice to abrade and fill the surface (this was difficult as pumice abraded the cotton pad, leaving fibres in the finish) through to full French polishing, stretching, etc. What I did learn is that it's a good way to seal a wood for subsequent finishes, so nitro or whatever over the top is a good move. I moved into harder sealer coats since then, epoxy finishing resin. Shellac needs a lot of work to build and tends to shrink back easily with it being reflowable and somewhat plastic. Cutting back shellac and waxing is also a good way forward. Perfect for a silky satin finish that leaves you more in touch with the wood (sort of). It's not always the best playing surface, and wax tends to makes subsequent repairs more difficult. Not sure if shellac is more forgiving in that respect, but I shy away from waxes unless its the end goal. Set neck instruments are hard, or at least, harder than set neck or bolt-on construction. They are definitely all different in sound, but not so much that I don't enjoy playing any of them or get something out of one that another doesn't still provide. I do like neck-through for drone-y clean stuff, and always wanted a 12-string like that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted October 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2022 I started without pumice but couldn’t get the grain filled evenly. Pumice was a game changer but it can be pain too if you’re not careful. Wax ain’t perfect but as this is for my own use I’m interested seeing what happens in time. At least it’s easy to add wax. If repair is needed most likely the whole top needs to be stripped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted October 10, 2022 Report Share Posted October 10, 2022 6 hours ago, henrim said: my own mix of Carnauba wax/Bees wax/Pine turpentine. How much of each did you use? Mine tends to get sticky under body temperature, apparently there's something wrong in my mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted October 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2022 9 minutes ago, Bizman62 said: How much of each did you use? This is the mix I used on this top. I can’t yet tell how it behaves on a guitar as I have only used it on items that are not in continuous body contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted October 10, 2022 Report Share Posted October 10, 2022 Wax should be buffed until it is almost "gone" from the surface. It leaves a residue of course, but anything that is of the order of a film is too much. Grease it up, wipe it back till the clothes come back clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted October 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2022 On this occasion I applied wax with abrasive pad and wiped excess off. The purpose was to dull the gloss off and give “fingerprint protection” to the surface. There shouldn’t be much wax left. I did the same to the back of the body which has danish oil on it. Left neck without wax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted October 10, 2022 Report Share Posted October 10, 2022 I do a similar thing with Tru-Oil in that I scuff a finished surface with grey Scotchbrite/Mirlon with a little oil. It's enough of a non-dry scuffing that it leaves a nice warm and fast-feeling surface. The best thing is that finishes like these can be repaired and renovated ad infinitum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted October 10, 2022 Report Share Posted October 10, 2022 53 minutes ago, henrim said: This is the mix I used on this top. (33-100-133) Ahh... guess I have too little turpentine although I added more. It also may be that I have too much Carnauba. I didn't bother weighing them, I just took a teaspoon of Carnauba flakes and peeled a beeswax candle into the jar. Added some turpentine and put it in a kettle of boiling water - and forgot about it for a while! I don't know which wax had vapourized and covered the inside of the kettle but getting it off was a PITA. But the liquid wax worked fine on one of my guitars! After the wax had hardened in the jar it seemed like I only could get some grease off the surface so I added some turps, closed the lid and put it in the fireplace where it melted and mixed fine. The stuff is excellent for lubricating wood screws! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted October 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 (edited) As it happens, yesterday evening just when I was about to call it a night I dropped my reading glasses on the top of the guitar. Lightweight ones that I wouldn't think could scratch a thing. Anyway there is now a dent on the top. It can be fixed, but needs to be sanded through the shellack layer. Or filled with some clear stuff. I don't know. Most import message here is that the finish cannot stay like this. Be it nitro, polyurethane or epoxy but it will get a stronger finish. At some point. I'll put it together like this for now. Play it a while and see if there are any other issues that need to be taken care off. Then I take it to pieces again, dewax and sand what needs to sanded and spray it. I could do just the top or coat the whole guitar (sans f/b). Which means the neck would have a clear coat too. Something I've been trying to avoid but I guess I can live with that. After all I played a Les Paul for ages and it had a painted neck that was kinda pain in the neck. But I could live with it. Nowadays I don't play that much. So my hands hardly ever get sweaty from playing. And if they do it's good time to stop playing and leave the talcum powder in the can So I guess a top coat on the neck is an alright compromise. I could string the guitar up tonight but I might do some inlays first. A logo mark to the head stock and then maybe something to the fretboard. I have side markers but I haven’t put fretboard markers on the top of my necks because I feel they are just ornaments. And I don’t believe in ornaments . Fretboard markers look like they are functional but you can’t see them while you play. Unless of course you play in front of a mirror. Which is kinda suspicious for other reasons. That said I reckon this guitar needs something to balance the looks. A drop of white in the middle of the fretboard could be it. Not a full scale dragon or a anything but may be two dots on the twelfth. Edited October 11, 2022 by henrim Spotted and fixed one of the typos. Others remain untouched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted October 11, 2022 Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 6 hours ago, henrim said: Which means the neck would have a clear coat too. Something I've been trying to avoid What's wrong with an oiled neck on a guitar that has a harder coat? The transition can be smoothened with shellac. I don't play much but I still like to sand the shiny coated necks matte. The transition is visible on a coloured neck but done well it doesn't look terrible. Like that: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted October 11, 2022 Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 It's feasible. I wouldn't bother feathering as sharp transition is fine. I wouldn't put oil over shellac myself as it defeats the purpose somewhat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted October 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 That is certainly an option. Transition is what has bothered me but now that you showed that hard transition I think that could be an option. I like that. Not sure how I can do that on the heel end on this guitar though. Have to think about it. Anyway I'll put this guitar together like it is now and worry about the finish some time later. No matter what I always end up changing my guitars at some point. Currently refinishing one I built in 2009. Which had pretty decent finish but never liked the colour scheme. Alpine white with blue tinted top. It could have worked out but the top is made of Oregon myrtle and it did't want to be blue. There was yellowish tint coming trough. Now it is off-white with red to yellow stain. Couple of more layers of acrylic polyurethane clear and it should be done. For a moment at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted October 11, 2022 Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 1 hour ago, henrim said: hard transition I think that could be an option. I like that. Not sure how I can do that on the heel end on this guitar though. I did that with cheap masking tape, then again sanding with a scotch pad is a bit different to transitioning from lacquer to oil. That said, I'd probably just tape the neck first before applying clearcoat. Sanding the ridge caused by the tape edge can be blended and buffed either before or after oiling the neck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted October 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 10 minutes ago, Bizman62 said: I did that with cheap masking tape, then again sanding with a scotch pad is a bit different to transitioning from lacquer to oil. That said, I'd probably just tape the neck first before applying clearcoat. Sanding the ridge caused by the tape edge can be blended and buffed either before or after oiling the neck. Yes, thanks. I actually meant more that I don't know where I would draw the line. The heal is already a bit awkward looking in the area where the different wood species of body and neck meet. In the beginning I was going to paint the back so I didn't really think it through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted October 11, 2022 Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 4 minutes ago, henrim said: I actually meant more that I don't know where I would draw the line. The heal is already a bit awkward looking in the area where the different wood species of body and neck meet. In the beginning I was going to paint the back so I didn't really think it through. Ahh, silly me... I couldn't find an image of the heel, the links on the first page are broken (did you use a hosting service instead of adding directly to your posts?) Anyhow, one option is to paint the back and do a burst similarly to many acoustic instruments. BTW often times the reason for painting the heel area black is to hide the patching and plastering of a poor joint! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted October 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 1 hour ago, Bizman62 said: did you use a hosting service instead of adding directly to your posts? At the time you couldn’t add directly to posts. Or resolution was limited to stamp size. Can’t remember. IRC I hosted those images on my own server and lost them accidentally when I did clean up years after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted October 11, 2022 Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 37 minutes ago, henrim said: At the time you couldn’t add directly to posts. Or resolution was limited to stamp size. Can’t remember. Oh... I should really go back to school to learn how to read! It was 2011 which was not last year if you get what I mean... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted October 11, 2022 Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 Feels like last year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted October 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 1 hour ago, Bizman62 said: Anyhow, one option is to paint the back and do a burst similarly to many acoustic instruments. BTW often times the reason for painting the heel area black is to hide the patching and plastering of a poor joint! Yes that’s one way to do it but I guess I’m just going to live with it as it is. Here’s a new pic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted October 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 3 minutes ago, Bizman62 said: Oh... I should really go back to school to learn how to read! It was 2011 which was not last year if you get what I mean... Well I’m not going to blame you making that mistake 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted October 11, 2022 Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 36 minutes ago, henrim said: Here’s a new pic. Ahh, I can see your problem now. The obvious would be to put the seam in the middle of the groove, in normal cases that is. BUT the heel continues a bit on the back which makes the situation different. An oiled neck may look different to a clear coated one although the seam would blend nicely in the groove. Yet if that were my build I might be tempted to follow the actual joint. That doesn't look too difficult to mask. And that way one wood would have a different finish than the other species which would look natural. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted October 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 I’ll have to think about that. Originally I made the choice with painted back in mind. It would have been white. All the way neck included. I just wanted it white even though I don’t like to play painted necks. Tough choices. Still think white would be nice with the padouk top. It was just when I took this build out of cupboard for the first time in a decade I thought it would be foolish to paint it. Such a beautiful wood that ash. That was when all the wrong choices started. Danish oil and shellac. I like both but not just on a guitar. Live and learn. I might just leave this as is and continue on. Next one will not have the same poor decisions. It will have it’s own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted October 13, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) There’s a thing or two that needs to be addressed but it can be played. Playing vise I love it. Whether or not to spray a protective top coat is something I need to think. But it looks nice as is. Need to file a new nut though as I rushed the one it has now. Action is fine but the spacing between d and g is off. Maybe needs to tad taller on the bass side as well. Edited October 13, 2022 by henrim Images showing black. Removed and try to re-upload. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted October 13, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2022 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted October 13, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2022 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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