Advice on "Majora Purple" finish

[sadclevelandsports]

Hey guys,

I've been a long time lurker, finally decided to take the plunge and try my hand at a fully ground-up build.

I am attempting to replicate the finish on this Jason Richardson guitar, but the colors leave me a bit perplexed.

I was thinking of starting with black, sanding back, then layering Angelus dyes in some combination of black, purple, light rose.

Obviously, I'm completely new to maple burl, and will probably try a few test pieces, but just didn't want to ruin such a nice top. 

Thanks all!

 

https://ibb.co/kyMCPtk
https://ibb.co/b5BM9Nq
https://ibb.co/n1VWwpD
https://ibb.co/mX9QVLb

 

[sadclevelandsports]

<a href="https://ibb.co/kyMCPtk"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/GJFSrqB/Screenshot-20240223-185654.png" alt="Screenshot-20240223-185654" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/b5BM9Nq"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/yFycjgG/Screenshot-20240226-214254.png" alt="Screenshot-20240226-214254" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/n1VWwpD"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/3F8JTK0/Screenshot-20240226-214402.png" alt="Screenshot-20240226-214402" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://ibb.co/mX9QVLb"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/cC6zSGk/Screenshot-20240226-214413.png" alt="Screenshot-20240226-214413" border="0"></a>

[sadclevelandsports]

[url=https://ibb.co/kyMCPtk][img]https://i.ibb.co/GJFSrqB/Screenshot-20240223-185654.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://ibb.co/b5BM9Nq][img]https://i.ibb.co/yFycjgG/Screenshot-20240226-214254.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://ibb.co/n1VWwpD][img]https://i.ibb.co/3F8JTK0/Screenshot-20240226-214402.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://ibb.co/mX9QVLb][img]https://i.ibb.co/cC6zSGk/Screenshot-20240226-214413.png[/img][/url]

 

Sorry obviously really failing with this image posting..

[henrim]

It appears that if you paste the link as rich text, the editor does not recognise it as a link. You can embed links if you paste as plain text. Anyhow, a better option would be to use "Drag images/files..." option under the text editor. Although if the images are not yours I don't think it is a good solution. Anyhow here's those images embedded from the links you provided.

"

[henrim]

I guess I could do some guess work with how to achieve the finish you are after, but there are people on this site who know that stuff better.

[sadclevelandsports]

10 minutes ago, henrim said:

It appears that if you paste the link as rich text, the editor does not recognise it as a link. You can embed links if you paste as plain text. Anyhow, a better option would be to use "Drag images/files..." option under the text editor. Although if the images are not yours I don't think it is a good solution. Anyhow here's those images embedded from the links you provided."





 

You are a man amongst men, thanks so much for helping me embed!

[sadclevelandsports]

On 3/1/2024 at 9:02 AM, henrim said:

I guess I could do some guess work with how to achieve the finish you are after, but there are people on this site who know that stuff better.

Would you be willing to share your guesswork?

[Bizman62]

On 3/1/2024 at 4:15 PM, sadclevelandsports said:

I was thinking of starting with black, sanding back, then layering Angelus dyes in some combination of black, purple, light rose.

That sounds as good a plan as any.

That said, often plain black can make the shadowing look dirty. Shades found in the wood itself may look more natural. Or something matching the final colour. A mix of purple and black sanded back might give a good start - a couple of years ago I ran out of my "Cherry Red" but mixing "Crimson Red" with black resulted a similar looking table top. The tables are standing side by side but it's hard to tell that they aren't from the same batch. Deep black cherry, that is.

Back to the guitar, after sanding back the "dark purple" I might be tempted to apply some plain purple and sand that back as well. And then maybe pink. Or the other way around.

Finally you can add some dye into the clearcoat for depth, that purple might work. And maybe another layer with some black potentially mixed with purple for a slight burst. And finally-finally a clearcoat to seal all that.

All this is based on what I've read and seen on videos so take the advice with caution!

 

[sadclevelandsports]

7 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

That sounds as good a plan as any.

That said, often plain black can make the shadowing look dirty. Shades found in the wood itself may look more natural. Or something matching the final colour. A mix of purple and black sanded back might give a good start - a couple of years ago I ran out of my "Cherry Red" but mixing "Crimson Red" with black resulted a similar looking table top. The tables are standing side by side but it's hard to tell that they aren't from the same batch. Deep black cherry, that is.

Back to the guitar, after sanding back the "dark purple" I might be tempted to apply some plain purple and sand that back as well. And then maybe pink. Or the other way around.

Finally you can add some dye into the clearcoat for depth, that purple might work. And maybe another layer with some black potentially mixed with purple for a slight burst. And finally-finally a clearcoat to seal all that.

All this is based on what I've read and seen on videos so take the advice with caution!

 

Thanks so much for this, especially the advice on black. Was wondering if it would end up too dark, so that's great advice. Thanks again!

[sadclevelandsports]

Was also thinking about using spray lacquers at the edges after I get a layer of clear (don't have a spray gun to mix dyes to clear), any ideas as to which spray lacquers are most appropriate?

[sadclevelandsports]

Welp...this took a completely unexpected turn. Was grainfilling with epoxy, made a nice blue color, and completely just dumped it on here without thinking. Still gonna go for purple, but should have some nice turquoise specs after I sand back. 

[Bizman62]

9 hours ago, sadclevelandsports said:

Still gonna go for purple, but should have some nice turquoise specs after I sand back. 

That may turn out to be a happy accident.

That said, also bear in mind that although the epoxy filler will not blend with any dye, optical rules still apply. Not only for the filler, also for the wood itself. Wood is basically brown, from light beige to almost black. And how do you get brown? It's red and yellow with some blue. You rarely see plain blue in nature, so red and green might be easier to figure - summer leaves and autumn leaves. Now when you add dye to that natural mix, the lighter grain may surprise you by adding yellow to the mix, dulling the purple. But it depends, there may be enough red to keep the result more majestic. Similarly the blue epoxy can enhance the royal feel.

I found this little online tool very handy for guessing what the end result might be with different proportions: https://trycolors.com/mixer. Start by mixing the purple you're going to use, then add some yellow or green for the "wood effect". You can increase the proportions by clicking the colour dots and reduce them by clicking the minus sign below them. Using scrap pieces is even better, hopefully you've used the filler on them as well.

[sadclevelandsports]

On 3/15/2024 at 2:49 AM, Bizman62 said:

That may turn out to be a happy accident.

That said, also bear in mind that although the epoxy filler will not blend with any dye, optical rules still apply. Not only for the filler, also for the wood itself. Wood is basically brown, from light beige to almost black. And how do you get brown? It's red and yellow with some blue. You rarely see plain blue in nature, so red and green might be easier to figure - summer leaves and autumn leaves. Now when you add dye to that natural mix, the lighter grain may surprise you by adding yellow to the mix, dulling the purple. But it depends, there may be enough red to keep the result more majestic. Similarly the blue epoxy can enhance the royal feel.

I found this little online tool very handy for guessing what the end result might be with different proportions: https://trycolors.com/mixer. Start by mixing the purple you're going to use, then add some yellow or green for the "wood effect". You can increase the proportions by clicking the colour dots and reduce them by clicking the minus sign below them. Using scrap pieces is even better, hopefully you've used the filler on them as well.

Thanks so much, that's actually really helpful!!

So I sanded back, cut some bevels (ala DC600), screwed up my scale length measurements so will have to modify the trem rout , and almost ready for color. First ever build from ground up, so I'm not going to be at myself up too much about it ..

[sadclevelandsports]

Was able to fool around and get something useable.

1:1 Angelus Black to Purple - Sand back

1:2 Purple to Light Rose - Sand back

1:2 Rose to denatured alcohol - Sand back (mainly because my daughter said the pink tone was ugly)

0.25:3:3 Purple to LR to DA

[Bizman62]

That looks stunning! Like travelling in a space ship through the Milky Way.

I was going to say that yours looks purplier than the role model but then it occurred to me that the photos are taken under different conditions with different cameras. A google search revealed that on some photos the Majora Purple guitars look just like your scrap piece.

Did you have any of that turquoise on the test piece? If so, it hides itself well! If not, you may encounter surprises.

Another thing to test is the finish over the dye. The clearcoat will enhance the figuration somewhat similar to your last wash when wet. But it may also add some yellow/orange to the mix. Boiled linseed oil or shellac are also commonly used to highlight the patterns but they have an even more of an amber hue which may give a surprising end result. Even a clear lacquer may not be totally clear, it can be 'cold' or 'warm' which can do tricks. Or it may have a hue that vanishes. Some years ago I rebuilt our floors, new pale pine, and the lacquer looked purple in the bucket! When spread on the floor it looked just wet, emphasizing the figuration some. Years of daylight have darkened the pine but there's still no evidence of any purple hue, even the palest sections are natural golden similar to untreated light exposed wood.

[sadclevelandsports]

3 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

That looks stunning! Like travelling in a space ship through the Milky Way.

I was going to say that yours looks purplier than the role model but then it occurred to me that the photos are taken under different conditions with different cameras. A google search revealed that on some photos the Majora Purple guitars look just like your scrap piece.

Did you have any of that turquoise on the test piece? If so, it hides itself well! If not, you may encounter surprises.

Another thing to test is the finish over the dye. The clearcoat will enhance the figuration somewhat similar to your last wash when wet. But it may also add some yellow/orange to the mix. Boiled linseed oil or shellac are also commonly used to highlight the patterns but they have an even more of an amber hue which may give a surprising end result. Even a clear lacquer may not be totally clear, it can be 'cold' or 'warm' which can do tricks. Or it may have a hue that vanishes. Some years ago I rebuilt our floors, new pale pine, and the lacquer looked purple in the bucket! When spread on the floor it looked just wet, emphasizing the figuration some. Years of daylight have darkened the pine but there's still no evidence of any purple hue, even the palest sections are natural golden similar to untreated light exposed wood.

Thanks so much, couldn't have done it without your advice. The picture I took was right after I wet the wood a little bit to simulate a finish, I am probably just going to put some clear poly on it. I have not tested with the turquoise but I put the tester adjacent to some of the specks and it seems very nice. Now onto the guitar...hope I don't screw it up haha...

[sadclevelandsports]

One last question, I have stained the guitar (took it a bit differently than my test piece but it seems close enough for me...). If I want to finish it properly, do I spray sanding sealer on top of it, or can I just put a layer of epoxy down to get some of the little voids I didn't get the first time around? Eventually, I would finish with 2k. Just can't find any consistent information on sanding sealer (some say dont use on stained wood). 

[Bizman62]

I've only used 2k twice for my guitars and haven't used any sanding sealer.  After a decade they still are perfectly flat even at the ends. The need for filling may depend on the wood, though. Mine were maple and alder, both of which have quite tiny pores. And I did a proper sanding after the first coat so the 2k acted as a sanding sealer.

The burl is porous but based on the pictures you spread the epoxy quite liberally so there should not be too large gaps. Again, I'd test with a scrap piece.

[sadclevelandsports]

Lighting is pretty poor, but turned out okay after wiping on some epoxy. Will sand down, spray a black burst and call it a day.

[Bizman62]

Looks great! The big turquoise area of epoxy looks just like I thought it would as it won't take the dye but the black burst will tame that. The smaller turquoise spots blend nicely in. Well done so far!

[sadclevelandsports]

Honestly, it's a bit disappointing how pedestrian it turned out. Ended up a bit too pale for my liking. Part of me is considering sanding it back down and coming back in with more purple.

[ADFinlayson]

I've had many goes with angelus purple. The trouble with it is it's such a strong pigment so it hides all the figure when it goes on neat, but at the same time it's also one of the worst colours for fading, particularly the blues in purple will fade so if you do a heavy sand back and go over it with rose, you will end up with a mostly pink guitar. I like to do a light sand back and use light-rose instead which gives more of a regal purple as a finished colour. If you just go purple and then do a light sand back with no other colours, you get more of an indigo for a final result. Although I am talking about the finish with nitrocellulose sprayed over it which will impact the final colour, if you wipe an epoxy over the dye then you will find that lifts some of the colour out (same with oil finishes) which will make it look less vibrant too

I uploaded a youtube video last week where I do the full finish process for a purple guitar with angelus dye

 

 

[sadclevelandsports]

11 hours ago, ADFinlayson said:

I've had many goes with angelus purple. The trouble with it is it's such a strong pigment so it hides all the figure when it goes on neat, but at the same time it's also one of the worst colours for fading, particularly the blues in purple will fade so if you do a heavy sand back and go over it with rose, you will end up with a mostly pink guitar. I like to do a light sand back and use light-rose instead which gives more of a regal purple as a finished colour. If you just go purple and then do a light sand back with no other colours, you get more of an indigo for a final result. Although I am talking about the finish with nitrocellulose sprayed over it which will impact the final colour, if you wipe an epoxy over the dye then you will find that lifts some of the colour out (same with oil finishes) which will make it look less vibrant too

I uploaded a youtube video last week where I do the full finish process for a purple guitar with angelus dye

 

 

Thank you!! Yes the tester piece ended up great even with an epoxy test but for some reason the real thing has more yellow-pale pink in it. Guitar staining is a surprisingly deep skill set.....

Edited March 21 by sadclevelandsports

[Bizman62]

7 hours ago, sadclevelandsports said:

Guitar staining is a surprisingly deep skill set.....

Indeed it is. That's why scraps of the very same pieces are invaluable and why you should perform the exactly same procedures to them as to the actual workpiece. And you'd still be prone to surprises as the properties of wood can change within half a foot especially cross grain, sapwood v.s. heartwood that is.

[sadclevelandsports]

On 3/21/2024 at 7:23 AM, ADFinlayson said:

I've had many goes with angelus purple. The trouble with it is it's such a strong pigment so it hides all the figure when it goes on neat, but at the same time it's also one of the worst colours for fading, particularly the blues in purple will fade so if you do a heavy sand back and go over it with rose, you will end up with a mostly pink guitar. I like to do a light sand back and use light-rose instead which gives more of a regal purple as a finished colour. If you just go purple and then do a light sand back with no other colours, you get more of an indigo for a final result. Although I am talking about the finish with nitrocellulose sprayed over it which will impact the final colour, if you wipe an epoxy over the dye then you will find that lifts some of the colour out (same with oil finishes) which will make it look less vibrant too

I uploaded a youtube video last week where I do the full finish process for a purple guitar with angelus dye

 

 

Quick question for you, if I remember correctly, in one of your videos you sprayed a burst finish. I was planning on spraying a black burst, but remembered that poly does not stick on top of lacquer and will crack/peel. What is the solution to this?