Bizman62 Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 I've sprayed a burst using 2k poly once, following the advice of our tutor Veijo who is a trained Master Luthier and has been in the business since the mid eighties so he should know. Anyhow, the procedure was as follows: After having sprayed a layer or two of poly and sanded it level up to some 400 wet I sprayed another thin layer of the 2k. Then when it was still wet I sprayed alcohol based dye for the burst. And while that was still wet I noticed that the overspray was way too intense so I took a rag soaked in solvent and wiped it all off! Much, much easier than sanding back to the first clearcoat! So, reapplied a mist of 2k to provide some grip for the dye, cleaned the spray gun (model very cheap, sub €20) and sprayed the alcohol based dye. This time the result was pleasing so I continued with 2k, wet on wet, to seal the dye between layers of clear. The last layer of clear has to be thick enough for level sanding without fear of sanding through the burst. Wet on wet was the trick, allowing the previous layer solidify just enough to prevent runs but not too long to build a skin. That would not be a major issue, though, it just means you'd have to wait for the 2k dry properly and sand it matte for subsequent coats. Later I've learned that you can also mix 2k and solvent based dye in which case you don't need the mist coat to start with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADFinlayson Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 If you've already used nitrocellulose lacquer then you need to use the same thing to spray your burst, you can't spray poly over lacquer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 On 3/20/2024 at 2:52 PM, sadclevelandsports said: Eventually, I would finish with 2k Has the plan changed? Couldn't find any other than that, then again this flu makes my eyes jump the obvious. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted March 24 Author Report Share Posted March 24 (edited) 3 hours ago, Bizman62 said: Has the plan changed? Couldn't find any other than that, then again this flu makes my eyes jump the obvious. That is the eventual plan, but I mistakenly thought that I could spray a burst over the epoxy before applying the 2k. Unfortunately, I don't have a sprayer, so I can't mix any pigment into the clear coat. I guess I'll have to sand the epoxy back and do a hand rub burst. Edited March 24 by sadclevelandsports Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 Ahh yes... Did you know there's stain/dye in rattle cans? I didn't until I googled for such. You may even let a car paint shop make a coloured mix of 2k and semi-transparent pigment into a rattle can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted March 24 Author Report Share Posted March 24 16 minutes ago, Bizman62 said: Ahh yes... Did you know there's stain/dye in rattle cans? I didn't until I googled for such. You may even let a car paint shop make a coloured mix of 2k and semi-transparent pigment into a rattle can. Thanks to you, I do. I guess my main question would be which formulations are compatible with 2k over it? For now, I'm hearing nitro and shellac are incompatible and will cause issues with adherence.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 Shellac is said to be compatible with most anything. I'd say 2k is guaranteed compatible with 2k. The question that now popped into my head is, were you going to spread the 2k by hand of from a rattle can? If the latter, then I'd consult the vendor to ask if they could add some pigment to it. After all, 2k paint is just 2k clear with added colour! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted March 24 Author Report Share Posted March 24 52 minutes ago, Bizman62 said: Shellac is said to be compatible with most anything. I'd say 2k is guaranteed compatible with 2k. The question that now popped into my head is, were you going to spread the 2k by hand of from a rattle can? If the latter, then I'd consult the vendor to ask if they could add some pigment to it. After all, 2k paint is just 2k clear with added colour! Maybe it was shellac with wax that was incompatible. Okay this helps a lot, so if I use a poly based spray, the 2k compatibility shouldn't be an issue? Do I sand down the burst after spraying so that the texture is flatter? Thanks again!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted March 24 Author Report Share Posted March 24 2 hours ago, Bizman62 said: Shellac is said to be compatible with most anything. I'd say 2k is guaranteed compatible with 2k. The question that now popped into my head is, were you going to spread the 2k by hand of from a rattle can? If the latter, then I'd consult the vendor to ask if they could add some pigment to it. After all, 2k paint is just 2k clear with added colour! So in a characteristic lack of patience on my end, I sanded off epoxy, and made it a fun hand burst project with my 7 year old. 3rd time's a charm, finally got close to what I wanted in my head. Thanks guys!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 1 hour ago, sadclevelandsports said: Maybe it was shellac with wax that was incompatible. Okay this helps a lot, so if I use a poly based spray, the 2k compatibility shouldn't be an issue? Wax or oil don't behave well under any coat. Shellac should work as a middle man but you won't know until having tested with your stuff. Also, when mixing different coatings one thing to remember is to let the previous layer cure properly. Any fumes that may emit from the previous layer can do things to the next one. I was going to say "less desirable" but then I remembered crackling which used to be very popular among house decorators not too long ago. 21 minutes ago, sadclevelandsports said: So in a characteristic lack of patience on my end, I sanded off epoxy, and made it a fun hand burst project with my 7 year old. 3rd time's a charm, finally got close to what I wanted in my head. Fun projects with kids are the best. Looks nice too! As they say there's many ways to skin a cat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted March 27 Author Report Share Posted March 27 (edited) On 3/24/2024 at 8:15 AM, Bizman62 said: Ahh yes... Did you know there's stain/dye in rattle cans? I didn't until I googled for such. You may even let a car paint shop make a coloured mix of 2k and semi-transparent pigment into a rattle can. Another week of twists and turns, I guess all newbie builders can look at me as an example of what not to do. So my previous obsession with epoxy was solely to have it as a stain protector, because I went in for a pretty big surgery last week, and didn't know when I'd get back to it (open hamstring repair and sciatic nerve scar tissue removal). While in bed, I really wanted to keep working, so I picked my butt up and kept going on crutches, but when I went back to sand the epoxy, it gummed up like crazy, so I sanded everything off, and started over. The color actually turned out quite nice for the top. The main issue now is the body. So everything I've read online says that the majority of stain attempts to basswood will probably fail... I tried to be cute and used some preconditioner thinking it would go well. It absolutely did not, some areas were super dark, others super light. I tried to sand the darkness out to no avail, so I tried to match the dark areas with some diluted Angelus black. Now this is what I have... I am genuinely contemplating giving up on the stain and just going in with black spray. I wanted a dark walnut, but looks like I'm gonna have to give up on it. Edited March 27 by sadclevelandsports Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted April 6 Report Share Posted April 6 On 3/27/2024 at 10:03 PM, sadclevelandsports said: the majority of stain attempts to basswood will probably fail... I tried to be cute and used some preconditioner thinking it would go well. It absolutely did not, Don't know if it's the preconditioner or what but it sure looks like you've splattered something here and there with a wide brush. And that that "something" absorbed the dark stain better than other areas and made it blotchy. Black paint is a valid option and after all, paint is just clear with pigments. And basswood doesn't have too fancy of a figuration anyways so hiding it is no big sin. The top looks great. Actually a solid black back may be a good option to highlight the top so let's hope the back turns into a happy accident! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted April 8 Author Report Share Posted April 8 On 4/6/2024 at 8:06 AM, Bizman62 said: Don't know if it's the preconditioner or what but it sure looks like you've splattered something here and there with a wide brush. And that that "something" absorbed the dark stain better than other areas and made it blotchy. Black paint is a valid option and after all, paint is just clear with pigments. And basswood doesn't have too fancy of a figuration anyways so hiding it is no big sin. The top looks great. Actually a solid black back may be a good option to highlight the top so let's hope the back turns into a happy accident! Thanks. Actually redid the back and was able to get a nice brown color with some leather dye. I'm finally ready to apply some 2k in a can, but quick question if you don't mind. Am I supposed to sand this again today certain grit before applying the clear, or do I leave it as is? I sanded the tops and sides to 400 before staining, and while it looks mostly fine, I can definitely see some minimally visible sanding "lines." Maybe some steel wool before spraying, or just go in as is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted April 8 Author Report Share Posted April 8 One more question, I'm not so sure about brown dye (still too many imperfections). If I choose to go black spray, do I sand the black down to smooth before the 2k? Thanks so much!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted April 8 Author Report Share Posted April 8 These are the imperfections I am talking about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted April 9 Report Share Posted April 9 9 hours ago, sadclevelandsports said: Am I supposed to sand this again today certain grit before applying the clear, or do I leave it as is? I sanded the tops and sides to 400 before staining, and while it looks mostly fine, I can definitely see some minimally visible sanding "lines." Maybe some steel wool before spraying, or just go in as is? If the surface feels rough when you wipe it with your hand - similar to having shaved your chin silky smooth in the morning but in the evening there's that certain roughness - go very lightly with a fine grit paper. 400 should be good but you can go finer. The most important thing is not to use any pressure! You'll just be knocking the fibers that the moisture of the stain has raised. Steel wool might work for scratches but there's also the risk of sanding the dye away. Also any remains of steel may rust so a nylon abrasive felt might be a safer option. But I repeat, after staining you should only go very lightly over the top so you don't sand the dye away. Or, if the sanding lines really bug you, prepare for sanding it all clean and start the colouring process over. That's not as bad as it may sound, a random orbital through various grits will do most of the job in no time. 7 hours ago, sadclevelandsports said: I'm not so sure about brown dye (still too many imperfections). If I choose to go black spray, do I sand the black down to smooth before the 2k? Agreed, that's a bit blotchy. If you're going to use black paint, there's no need to sand that colour away as black paint has the best cover ratio of all, it will hide anything. Also the dye doesn't prevent the paint from sticking. That said, you should do a similar light sanding before painting. Also notice that any scratches in the wood will be emphasized both with the black paint and with the clearcoat! After the black has properly dried, you may want to sand it satin before applying the clearcoat. Again, any imperfections will become magnified under the clearcoat so be patient when preparing for the clear. One more hint: When sanding wood, wipe with a moist cloth and let dry before changing to a finer grit! That will raise the grain. After the finest grit moist the surface again and go lightly over it, repeat that twice for the smoothest possible base for both staining and coating. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted April 9 Author Report Share Posted April 9 7 hours ago, Bizman62 said: If the surface feels rough when you wipe it with your hand - similar to having shaved your chin silky smooth in the morning but in the evening there's that certain roughness - go very lightly with a fine grit paper. 400 should be good but you can go finer. The most important thing is not to use any pressure! You'll just be knocking the fibers that the moisture of the stain has raised. Steel wool might work for scratches but there's also the risk of sanding the dye away. Also any remains of steel may rust so a nylon abrasive felt might be a safer option. But I repeat, after staining you should only go very lightly over the top so you don't sand the dye away. Or, if the sanding lines really bug you, prepare for sanding it all clean and start the colouring process over. That's not as bad as it may sound, a random orbital through various grits will do most of the job in no time. Agreed, that's a bit blotchy. If you're going to use black paint, there's no need to sand that colour away as black paint has the best cover ratio of all, it will hide anything. Also the dye doesn't prevent the paint from sticking. That said, you should do a similar light sanding before painting. Also notice that any scratches in the wood will be emphasized both with the black paint and with the clearcoat! After the black has properly dried, you may want to sand it satin before applying the clearcoat. Again, any imperfections will become magnified under the clearcoat so be patient when preparing for the clear. One more hint: When sanding wood, wipe with a moist cloth and let dry before changing to a finer grit! That will raise the grain. After the finest grit moist the surface again and go lightly over it, repeat that twice for the smoothest possible base for both staining and coating. Thanks so much, would you put primer on the wood before black spray, or just go straight in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted April 9 Report Share Posted April 9 13 minutes ago, sadclevelandsports said: Thanks so much, would you put primer on the wood before black spray, or just go straight in? With primer definitely. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted April 10 Author Report Share Posted April 10 You guys are awesome. Last question...if I spray primer then paint, will there be a step or a height difference at the border of the body and the maple top? If the spray coat is too high compared to the maple top, do I sand the border down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted April 10 Report Share Posted April 10 If I'm not totally wrong the primer should be sanded flush before painting. That should also blend any height difference in before applying the black paint. Also, you can mask the bottom side and apply some clearcoat on the rim of the top. Then you can mask the top including the rim before applying the black paint. That should give you a nice crisp line. The clearcoat on the rim will also prevent the black from staining the edge of the top and if some black gets under the tape (that's unavoidable!) you can easily scrape the paint off the clear! Was that clearly enough told? My broken English is sometimes so repetitive that I can't understand it myself! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 15 hours ago, Bizman62 said: primer should be sanded flush before painting It can't be totally flush, but the layer should't be that thick either. All in all, when the top is masked and the sides are painted there will be a ridge between the masked and painted parts. However, In this case there is no need for very thick paint layer as you will clear coat the top anyway and you can do the whole body at the same time. The ridge should even out with the clear coat. With good technique it can be invisible or even totally flush. Guitars like Gibson Les Paul Custom (solid color) with binding may have a visible ridges between binding and the color layer. The edge is still smooth but it's not fully flush. Btw, if you paint the back black, use black primer, so you won't get any accidental contrasting colour showing in the mask edge. And to elaborate my previous reply, you only need primer if you want to have a solid and level color coat. Primer gives you a uniform surface to lay the colour coat on. Without primer you may still have some grain showing, which may or may not be a nice effect. Depends on many variables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 25 minutes ago, henrim said: It can't be totally flush, but the layer should't be that thick either. Guess I meant "level" rather than "flush". No bubbles or drips. Nor sanding marks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 19 minutes ago, Bizman62 said: Guess I meant "level" rather than "flush". No bubbles or drips. Nor sanding marks. Yes it should be level. Any imperfections will be amplified with the top coat. And primer has far better filling capabilities so it's better to have that layer "perfect" before applying color. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted April 11 Author Report Share Posted April 11 You guys are awesome, and bizman62, I don't know what you're talking about but your English is perfect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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