Sustainer Ideas

[RV2]

OK, I've made some progress. First I soldered the amp, as mentioned with three trimpots. I tried to keep it as small as possible. In the pictures below you can see my amp and my setup. The guitar is a Cort CL200. I bought it on Ebay for projects like this one (don't want to mess with my Fender Jazzmaster).

And did it work???... Yes it did! First I tried it with the 5 magnets I had put on the bottom, but that didn't give any sustain. Then I decided to add some more magnets, so the bottom was allmost totaly covered with 10 magnets. And after changing the trimpot settings I finally heard some harmonics and found out that it worked! It is not yet perfect at all, some notes sustain much better than others, but I'm happy so far!

I am getting sustain now from the low E string till around the 5th fret on the B string. But even on the lower strings there are some notes that don't seem to sustain like other notes. Also I experienced that some notes react much better in harmonics mode and other notes better in normal mode. So there is enough testing and researching to do I have kinda decided to try to make a driver with a smaller core, as recommended by psw.

Greetz,

Randy

Edited December 19, 2005 by RV2

[psw]

That is just beautiful Randy....

When you have time tell us how you mapped out that circuit board, how you got it made and cost...just terrific!!!

Now that you have a circuit the driver is the variable. I hope you didn't find it too much of a chore to make! Check out a few others here for construction ideas...also how thin (deep) is your driver at the moment.

Also, You may wish to try a larger ceramic magnet...or even try arranging the driver so the mags are on top (tape them on or they will try to stick to the strings...). These things will change the magnetic field.

Your results do bear out my theories though so perhaps a new driver is the go. My core was 3mm plain steel (from a hardware store cut and ground down). We did discuss also a laminated core...say a few thin strips of thin strips. You can find thin galvanized strip steel angles for making corners in plasterboard for instance that can virtually be cut with scissors. A thin core makes the bobbin a little harder to make though.

Tim (onelastgoodbye)...our design maestro...made a fabulous driver (though again with a wider core) around a magnet itself with no bobbin as such at all!!! Here's a flashback to page 70...

@everybody

this is my latest prototype:

I just put it on top of the strings so you get an idea of the size. The core is a 5 x 5 x 60 mm ceramic bar magnet with 2 pieces of 1mm thick steel sheet glued to the sides of it; so the whole core is about 7mm wide.The steel is there to direct the magnetic field a bit more upward (well that's the theory). I actually wanted to make it a lot more narrow, but that magnet is a b*tch to shape  . The clever part of the design is this: I doesn't need any bobbins! Since the core is magnetic I just stuck a small iron plate on top of it, and an identical plate on the bottom (I wrapped them in cellophane/ kitchen foil first); and wound the coil in between that, while adding epoxy onto  the windings. If you're a bit careful you can just take off both plates after the epoxy has hardened, because kitchen foil is PE and epoxy doesn't stick to that! et voila...a bobbinless pickup.

The performance is excellent, and the only thing I want to try now is to make a smaller version, but other than that I think it's a keeper.

Here's a drawing made in answer of the construction from that same page...(the little arrow will take you directly back to that part of the thread...)

←

Beautiful stuff but there are others that are equally great around there...check it out.

Your circuit is the best I've seen so far, really very neat. Test it out with a small speaker (say from an old computer or radio) to be sure that you know where full power is...but it sounds as if it's all working fine.

If you are testing it out like this you may also wish to test out another amazing sustainer device...the "power slide". Basically, use the metal back of the speaker as a slide. The vibrations of the speaker will create a powerful infinite sustain...

Fantastic...a treat for me this morning down here... psw

ah-Ha....Randy...I just noticed you have a very long twisted lead from the circuit to the driver.... This can suck up energy and emit EMI. The driver leads are in fact an extention of the driver coil itself. It could be that you are losing energy right there. Try shortening those leads. With that guitar I'd be tempted to put the circuit and the driver in the neck pickup cavity and have those shorts as short as possible...just a last thought and definitely worth a try...the other leads can be as long as you like but should ideally be shielded cable (preferably 2 core) but that is less important (noise issue).

[RV2]

About my amp: I didn't have a plan, I just started. First I began with the transistor and the resistors. From there I looked at the Fetzer Ruby scheme to see how I could best place the other parts. Tonight I will make a picture of the bottom of the circuit. Then you will see my chaotic connections uncovered

About the costs so far I can give a short overview. The circuit parts are ordered from different shops (internet and local) and I guess I paid 8 euro's. For the driver I bought a steel bar (6x6x1000mm, so a lot more drivers possible ) and 0,2 mm wire for the windings, it cost 4 euro together. Then finally I needed two toggle switches (a dpdt and a 3pdt), these probably are the most expensive parts: 2,50 + 3,00 = 5,50 euro.

So all together it will cost you less than 20 euro's for the sustainer! That must be a reason to start for anybody who is still in doubt whether to try this project

[psw]

Absolutely Randy...and enough wire and steel left over for quite a few driver experiments too!!! No excuses for anyone...

Oh and i thought about the mags and will draw a picture soon to show what's going on...till then... psw

[RV2]

Here is a picture of the bottom of the circuit as promised :

I prefer the other side

Haven't had the time for further testing.

Greetz,

Randy

[psw]

There's been some interesting discussion about circuits and stuff and a bit more cross promotion of the project over at DIYstomboxes...the link is in a post above.

Earlier I said I'd sketch up some stuff on magnets

So here it is...

Pic.1 R.E. Magnet (aka Neodyminium)

Rare Earth Magnets are the most powerful that you can get. It stands to reason that you could get away with much smaller magnets (as Randy has done) for the same effect. But the effect required is not so much power of the magnetic field, as it's "shape". Although the RE mags are powerful they are physically small. The powerful force emitted from one pole is just as powerfully attracted to the other. So what comes out the top is immediately sucked back into the bottom...away from the coil and even further from the strings...despite their power.

Pic.2 R.E. Magnet with blade attached

Ok...now, with the driver we add some steel. The magnetic field will prefer the steel and travel through it on it's way to the opposite pole. But the attraction to the other pole is so strong and compact, the blade really only bends the shape a little. The field is still mainly concentrated at the base away from the string.

Pic.3 A big Ceramic Magnet

Now a ceramic pickup style magnet is physically larger and so is it's magnetic field. It is more inclined to travel through the blade (and the string) on it's way to it's opposite pole because it has further to travel around and the forces are a little less and defuse. My drivers worked well with this type of magnet but it is bulky (much thicker than the driver coil itself) and so takes up space. It even works well in the driver/pickup combo on my working guitar, even though it is physically quite some distance from the driver coil itself.

Pic.4 Internal Magnet Core

This is where the coil is actually wraped around the actual magnet itself. A great example is Tim's bobbinless coil pictured above. The Magnetic Field has no choice but to pass through the string and the coil and is quite compact. This compactness is neat as, although Tim's core was wider than mine, the shape of the field is probably narrower...I imagine a good thing. It is also the best in terms of size too as no additional magnet need be added to it.

So, before everyone thinks what would be even better is a Neodyminium core...think again. A strong magnet will inhibit the natural vibration of the string and so sustain (the opposite of what we want). A case in point is traditional strat pickups (which have alnico magnet polepieces within the core). If these are set too close they will cause loss of sustain, wolf notes and even pull the string out of tune and make it impossible to intonate...not good.

The driver should be set as close to the string as the action will allow...and a low consistant action is best.

I should also make my usual warning. Cutting or grinding any magnet is difficult and potentially dangerous. A Neodyminium Magnet is extremely dangerous. When it breaks all the pieces become very powerful individual magnets that will try to get away from eachother at great speed. There is no need to attempt this...so don't. If the right size cant be bought they can be combined as we have discussed. Randy used 10 small ones eventually. It is debatable whether these really are the most ideal magnet anyway, and if used as a pole may simply be too powerful to get close to the string.

What causes the device to work is not the permanent magnets...same as with pickups BTW. It is the action of the coil which is an electromagnet that is doing all the work. It's the changes in the magnetic field. The magnet is only there to establish it, it's the changes in the magnetic field that's going to move the string. It won't work without it, but that is not what makes it work!

Now I did start using R.E. Magnets a lot and there is a bit about them in this thread. Originally I was looking into them to make pickups. These designs however were not conventional. The miniture drivers eventually had two mgnets of opposite polarities either side and running along the string. Each string was aligned in a neutral zone that was very sensitive to changes in magnetic flux...this is how my miniture drivers were able to get so small and efficient and to emit so little EMI. However...this was not really for the DIY, the technology was kept secret (by me) and ultimately, the aligning of the strings and everything made it not the most practical of devices. I hope this little insight of what was going on for a large part of the early part of this thread is of interest, but is probably not of that much use (unfortunately). Rare Earth Magnets do have there place though and I could see a neat Neodyminium cored driver using multiple (probably 11) very small internal magnetic poles being made. But it's performance would be no better than one with a different magnetic field...I suspect.

So...I hope that's been of interest and of help to someone...at the very least it adds a little more of the old psw mega post heritage that this thread was always known for...take care now....psw

Edited December 21, 2005 by psw

[psw]

Hey there everybody

I just wanted to thank all those who have been following and contributing to the sustainer thread and welcome and encourage all those contemplating taking up the project in the new year.

Down here in Oz it's been sweltering but there is a little relief here but on Christmas Eve (10 hours ahead in the US) we've had some relief with even some hail last night, For a few seconds as it melted in the heat, it was a white christmas i guess!

Anyway, for me it has been a very difficult and tremultuous year with still some challenging times ahead but rest-assured I will be keeping an interest and putting in contributions.

I've been playing the prototype a bit recently , I may even post some sounds again in the new year, and I can feel the sustainer bug biting again as more improvements and variations come to mind and are discussed here.

So to everyone, everywhere...take care and best wishes...psw

[lucasbeat]

Merry Christmas!!!

From Argentina,

Lucas

[psw]

Happy New Year All...

I have some new sound from my sustainer strat that will be available soon...some examples of this device as used with effects and as a recording tool....so stand by for that.

I have a whole host of ideas to share and quite a few are looking to join in with their own versions. There is a lot of scope an ideas and I'm sure there is more life in this thread yet

I see that there has been renewed interest of late and the thread has just ticked over 32,000 visits. Thanks to all yet again.

It has been a long time I guess and covered a lot of ground. In the early days it explored some of the patent ideas and I thought I'd post an exploded view of a sustainiac bilateral driver idea to give people a taste of what can be seen there...

It works like a reverse humbucker to help cancel out EMI by radiating equal but opposing EMI...well that's the idea. This is the type of driver that Dizzy used in his mid pickup driver too. I'd been interested in this idea but running separately filtered signals to the high and low strings in an effort to get a bet polyphonic response. Of course the ultimate expression of this was the Hex driver which uses six individual coils. Fernandes used to use a driver coil on it's side but now has a conventional Humbucker look. So there is a few ways this device could be configured...there is sure scope for experimentation. Last years contribution was the "thin driver" concept...who knows what's next...stay tuned to find out...

Happy New Year Everyone...psw...

[psw]

Oh yeah...and I couldn't resist this one...

In case people think this thread is long...people have been working on the sustainer concept for over a hundred years...Here's one from 1892, I kid you not!!!

Enjoy...psw

[psw]

Here it is in time for New Year...a little Sustainer Sound for You all.

Siren Sea

Acoustic guitar for 3 tracks...two sustainer pad tracks...one lead and one weird organ type sound. Lot's of high harmonic sounds and stuff.

It's 2006 already here...happy new year when you all catch up...psw

[GregP]

Sounds great. Nice little tune, too!

[monkey69962000]

great sound. havent been on the forums in like a month and i just caught up. over 100 years trying to get sustain. lol. lets hope it doesnt take us another 100 years to get the perfect sustain. lol. good job and good luck psw

[psw]

Hi everyone...

There have a been a couple of posts recently that may be of interest to sustainer followers, especially in relation to the preamp question. Of particular interest is this one:

onboard booster overdrive

The circuit and details can be found there. This little circuit does three things. With a single 3 way switch you get an active clean preamp/booster, and overdrive, and a distortion all on a tiny circuit.

Now why is this of interest...because such a preamp would also be ideal running into the LM386 poweramp (or other chip) and then to the driver. Especially the bit of compression in the overdriven sounds would be useful i think in bringing the notes out a little quicker.

Now, my thinking has been of late to have a driver that is switched in and out (rather than the power to the circuit) and we have always thought that the preamp could do dual duties for both the sustainer and to amke a guitar active. This thing would take that concept just a little further by providing 3 types of boost as well, whether in sustain mode or not.

Given that I'm thinking that a neat installation would jettison all but the bridge pickup, replacing the neck pickup entirely with a driver, this would make a neat compensation for not having a second pickup. Add an active tone control to the circuit and you'd have more sounds than you'd know what to do with and the sustainer operating with all of them...

Well just a thought...very neat circuit/concept all the same.

As far as my concepts for 2006 for this project. I have in mind something that would look very much like an EMG humbucking pickup. Molded in epoxy, this could contain a thin driver and the circuitry complete. Connections would need to be made for the guitar signal in, the sustainer control switchs, and power. 8 wires.

Replaceing the neck pickup entirely, this would be a really neat and solid item and room would only need be found for the battery and the switches. The epoxy setting would make it look great, protect it, and give the coil some really solid potting.

On potting...I advocated PVA as a simple and safe potting method. Potting of the coil is vital as it will generate heat and try to vibrate causing all kinds of problems. PVA however may soften a little with heat and allow the coil to vibrate. It will reset but is not ideal and if the bobbin isn't tough, the windings could come a little loose.

I suspect that is what happens a little with my prototype, even though it's still going strong, this is a weak point. Using epoxy while you wind is going to be messy and CA (super glue) is not only dangerous, will not do the job so don't even think about it. Tim's epoxy set bobbinless, magnet coiled driver is by far the best construction I've seen...but you'd have to be sure to wear gloves I'm sure!!

All these things are refinements to the device and I'm hoping more will join in, either making their own or coming up with new concepts as I've done above.

Sounds great.  Nice little tune, too!

Thanks GregP...I hope people liked it...there is a description of it over at the

Sustainer Sounds Thread

You can also get Dizzy's more polished Diablo Theme over there too. This uses a mid driver with sneaky circuit phase compensation and a bilateral driver as in that sustainiac patent posted on the previous page.

OK...so please join up to PG and contribute here if you are at all interested as more input is always welcome...psw

[psw]

Here are a couple of posts from another thread that has relavance to remote powering a sustainer device...Onboard Delay Effect

Here's something of interest...

comes from http://guitarelectronics.zoovy.com/. One way to at least get the battery out of the guitar...

I'm still a little concerned (like LK) about sending much current down the lead but it could work for some effects and would be fine for powering little preamps or EMG's and the like...

←

...and how would we DIY it????

Not much to DIY, really, Pete - simply wire the positive power terminal of your circuit to the ring of the guitar's (stereo) output jack, and the circuit's ground to the guitar's ground buss. Then make a "breakout box" that hooks up a battery/power supply to a stereo input jack with its positive to the ring and negative to ground, and a mono output jack wired tip to sleeve. Run a stereo cable between them, connect the mono output jack to your amp, and you've powered your circuit without any serious interaction between power and audio circuits. If that's still confusing, I can work up a diagram if anybody needs one. A well-filtered, regulated (and isolated for safety, if run from the AC line) supply with more than ample current is absolutely essential, to keep from inducing noise/buzz into the audio circuit. Current limiting/fusing, low battery/voltage indicator and polarity protection are left as an exercise for the reader.

The obvious upside is that your homebrew box will work with standard active guitars just like the commercial one, provided you short across the guitar's battery clip like they do.

←

Ok...

Definitely got me thinking...just something nagging me about it...however...

Still...with the sustainer, a power supply like this would provide for a significant improvement in performance by allowing increased power to the driver, the driver could be kept in idle (so no pop!) and it would completely remove the need for space for the battery (by far the biggest component) to the inside of the guitar.

I wonder why this breakout box has no provision for AC powering via a supply?

Anyway...gives me an excuse to bring back the Sustainer Thread by linking this thread to it for future reference...thank you gentlemen...pete

So, my vision for the 2006 DIY sustainer from me is, a driver and circuit self-contained within the pickup...no sensitivity control, just connections for switches and power (possibly supplied remotely through a stereo lead such as discussed above).

If someone helps me with some electronic switching circuitry, the switching could even be triggered by surface mounted push buttons for a simple low-mod installation or any other switch type (push pull, toggle, selector, etc).

Further development to this would be preamplification to use the driver as a pickup (like the Stealth Plus and Fernandes systems) and/or more complex electronic switching to accomodate multi pickup guitars such as my Strat.

For ultimate cool...imagine my bridge mounted hex driver concept on a Variaxe...as it has only piezo pickups in the saddles and the rest is triggered there would be no problem with the EMI affecting them as they are not magnetic. The issue of Guitar Player (INXS issue: Jan:06) describes their Workbench software to program and tweak it to your hearts content...but it still wont sustain like one of these devices will!!!!

[psw]

Hi all...this post came up on the tutorial section but I thought I'd answer it here...welcome jbm222

I wanted to try making one of these but want it to fit nicely into my guitar if it works, so I tore the windings off of a a cheapo single coil with over sized pole pieces. I had some 26 AWG enameled wire laying around, and i tried wrapping it. I put as many turns on it as i could fit under the pickup case, and measured the resistance. About 200 turns came out to about 4.2 ohms so I figured I should probably get some smaller wire.

But before I try this again, I have a question. How do you measure the resistance as you're winding it? The tutorial says wrap 'til you get 8 ohms, but if your pulling wire off a spool, how do check that?

Ok...my idea for this type of pickup "conversion" is to block the lower half of the pickup bobbin leaving a small area about 3mm high at the top. This will create a "thin driver" as we have been discussing and making lately (and as I use successfully on my strat) in what will look like an ordinary pickup.

Now through a lot of trial and error we have found 0.2 mm wire to be the best and about 200 turns will bring up 8 ohms. It doesn't need to be exact, but close for efficiency. Now to measure it...lightly sand off the enamel coating on the end, then start winding...when you have done say 100 turns, without breaking the wire sand anther little area and use a multimeter to measure the resistance between the end and this point. Then keep winding...the resistance will seem to rise dramatically as you get close so don't go by the number of turns.

The coil does need to be potted and we have been using PVA glue while winding presently. This will recoat the wire to stop shorts but is mainly to stop any kind of vibration. PVA is probably not the best (epoxy would probably be best) but it is easy and safe to use and reversable...and works and cheap...all good reasons to use it.

Wrap the whole thing in tape and it will look just like a pickup...especially if under a cover. To test it, hook the thing up and hold the driver above the strings and see how it works...just like a big ebow. If you want to see if the amp is working you may want to connect a small speaker so you know that's all ok.

Anyway...sounds like a good idea and it would be great if you were to post some pics. I proposed this idea for converting a humbucker by blocking one coil...welcome aboard...psw

Oh...and here's a link to a page that I'll be uploading some more sustainer sounds...

Soundclick sustainer sound page

let me know how it works. The Track Static Field is all sustainer tracks. The basis is a loop with some semi random theramin type sounds over it...a little differet, zen out..

[jbm222]

Before PSW's last reply, I was looking around to see if I could find away to calculate how much wire I would need of a given gauge to get 8 ohms. I found this page: AWG Table.

I measured the approximate dimensions of the bobbin to convert the number of turns I counting into an approximate length, then used that table to calculate the theoretical resistance of my failed coil. It came out a little short, but I didn't factor in the fact that windings get longer as you go. Plus I measured with a riciulously cheap DMM which show about 0.2 to 0.4 ohms when you just touch the two probes together. So if I were more careful in my calculations & measurements, the numbers probably would've turned out just about right.

Also, though it requires a bit more thought, you can use the diameter of the wire and the dimensions of the core to figure out about what the physical dimensions of the end result will be to give you the appropriate resistance.

So based on some rough guestimates, I don't think I would fit enough windings of 0.2mm in 3mm of space on my bobbin and still have the pickup case fit over it. I would probably either need about 5mm of thickness with the 0.2, or go down to 33 AWG or even 0.18 to fit it in the 3mm space. I think I'm going to try some 33 AWG and try blocking it most of the way to see how it goes.

I'll take some pics along the way so that with any luck we can have a working example of a pickup-to-driver conversion. Already removed the old wire from the bobbin, but that's a pretty self explanatory part of the process.

**EDIT**

Question about batteries.... I'm thinking about making a pack of NiMH rechargeables. A 9V just doesn't seem like it would last long enough to mess with. Which would be better? 6x AA, or a couple 9v's in parallel?

There are AA NiMH's rated at 2000mAh, while the best 9V NiMH's are around 200mAh. But if the AA's ALL drop to 1V, then there's a problem (probably).

Any thoughts on this? How much current does one of these things typically draw?

Edited January 14, 2006 by jbm222

[psw]

Thanks jbm222...some important points i had forgotten...

First...my drivers on this design have been built around a 3mm blade core. The blade is a bit better when string bending. I'm not sure with your pickup bobbin how much thicker it is. But with this core i have about 2mm more i could wind before it reaches the edge of the bobbin of the single coil and risking the cover not fitting.

LK or someone may correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm not sure if a coil's resistance is solely based on the length of a wire in a straight line...but how much the wires overlap? I know that the bigger the coil becomes so the windings increase in length as you say... Certainly this overlaping of the wire does effect how it works and is surely a part reason for the effectiveness ot the "thin driver" design.

Also...i have tried a variety of wire guages and have found 0.2 (or close) to be by far the best. The number of turns and the wire thickness will have a result on the resonant frequency response of the coil and it's ability to take current and transform it into electromagnetic energy. In that tutorial, Mike used 30AWG but his findings were that he could not get the harmonic drive to work. It is perhaps not the best example of the project, and was done quite a while back. There are a few significant differences though so how much wire guage is a factor I cant be sure. All I can say is that when I have tried different guages, it has worked but not at all as well.

It would be better I think to perhaps block the core to 4mm to be sure than to change the wire guage. A small reel of 0.2 or 0.22 will make at least 2 drivers i should think.

Anyway, the resistance does not have to be exact, I know for some reason my current driver is somewhat less (by mistake), but i could have easily fit a lot more on. I have made drivers a bit thicker than 3mm too that have worked ok and I see some here 4-5mm that seem to be ok as well.

I wonder...have you found the pages on the making of my pickup/driver combo? I'll see if I can make a link...

ohh..that's a dangerous pastime...everytime i go back to find something a similar discussion has been had before...this thread is way to big...this may be of relavance for instance...

28 guage wire? My best drivers have used 0.22mm, I'm not sure what guage this would be but it sounds like perhaps it's a bit thicker. The thickness of the wire allows more power to run through it and a result has a lower resistance for it length (or number of turns around the bobbin). Too thin and you cant put enough power through it. I used 0.125mm with poor results. Tim/onelastgoodbye used 0.03mm and this only slight additional thickness mean't he could only get half the resistance I was getting in a smaller coil.

Anyway...it's a balancing act. The right coil size, core material, wire guage...once it all comes together you'll soon overcome these problems. I really think the driver is the key. I've been using the same preamp/amp setup for a year now and it has worked on numerous driver designs and runs quite happily from a single 9 volt battery.

My work has led me to aim for quite small compact driver designs. I feel that these contain the EMI, which causes the interferance with the other pickups, and so reduce the squeel for a given output. Basically more output working on the strings, less straying about and causing interferance and oscillation (the squeel).

Potting certainly helps, but you may be producing noise in the tubescreamer that's causing the amplifier to oscillate (squeel), so it's something to think about. There is a school of thought (LK) that suggests that the tubescreamer though, is the perfect type of preamp to drive the strings...so who can say!

Yeah the lower strings respond better because they vibrate at a lower frequency and have more magnetic material (steel) in them for the driver to work on. In order for the driver to drive the strings on the higher strings, not only does it have less to work with and a higher string tension, the driver has to change magnetic states much more quickly.

Here's a common analogy

Imagine that the drivers coil is a hose. The thinner the hose, the more difficult (resistance) there is to water flowing through it. But, with sufficient pressure (amplifier power) you can produce a very powerful jet stream. A thicker hose will alow more volume to go through (with less resistance) but you will need a lot more pressure (power) to get the same force from it.

Now, imagine that the pressure has to continually reverse direction (with the + & - waves of vibration), there will always be some lag between the response of the water flowing one way and then having to back up which will inevitably be different from the actual vibrations (of the physical string) that it's trying to emulate. So, at times it is working against it's own current and the response is sluggish. The higher the frequency...the faster the direction has to change...the more out of phase it will be and the less responsive the device.

Also, consider the core material. The purpose of the magnet is to apply some attraction to the strings. The coil in the driver alternatively applies more attraction, or less causing it to vibrate. It is necessary that some magnetic environment be set up for the driver to work efficiently. However, as the coil changes states, so too must the core or magnet. Different core materials respond quicker and retain their magnetic state differently. Some will attempt to hold on to their polarity for longer also making the device sluggish to respond to the constant changes in magnetic states induced by the coil and ultimutely the vibration of the string.

But...it appears not to be rocket science and there is quite a large margin of error for which really positive results can be had quite simply. While previous patent designs have put a lot of enphisis on correcting for phase differences and in pumping more power into the system...I think the biggest advances are to be found with trying quite simple variations in driver design.

Fortunately, I think I might get at least half a dozen worth of drivers from a small reel of wire (about A$7 worth) and the magnets can be reused for successive designs. So the cost is minimal and the circuitry remains fairly simple.

from page 51 (about the time of Mikes Tutorial I think...)

I also found these pics...

The thicker driver there worked surprisingly well and was a converted single coil as i recall...

But that is still not what I am looking for...

Ah...right...Part One and Two Page 49 and part Three Page 57 This is a link to me making my Pickup/Driver Combo (very similar to what you are doing except instead of blocking it has a pickup coil on there...

Here is a pic before i started winding (just the bobbin)...

Ok...now that i have confused you...what my suggestion is, is to stick to the 0.2 or 0.22 or 31-32AWG from your table and make the driver a little thicker!

As for the battery...there has been a bit about that too. I'm have been swayed towards leaving the circuit on (while the guitar is plugged in, and simply disconnecting the driver. This should address the "pop" problem. I does however leave the thing in idle even when not operating so will draw some power so there is a down side. Remote power is the ultimate solution as discussed in some recent posts and way back too.

Rechargables tend to have a lower voltage (a 9v is actually about 8.3v i think) and don't last nearly as long as a normal battery. It's to do with the current drain which is high in this device. A LM386 would work on 6v so there is a wide operating range there. I found my rechargables needed replacing fairly often (i swaped one while the other recharged) where as a normal battery lasts a surprisingly long time considering...

A fair bit is to do with what you can fit in there...they would all work but the idea of remote powering the device (no onboard battery) would seem to be the best possible solution...it just hasn't really been tried yet in a working guitar.

Perhaps post a link to the kinds of batteries you are considering...or test some variations out before installation... Cost has also been a consideration for me and some rechargables can get a little expensive.

So I hope all that helps a little and is not too much...I really must get around to indexing this thread some day...lol...pete

[psw]

me again...

Here is another simple little track...airie

Just the naked solo guitar in fundumental sustain mode. Shows how the sustained note blooms behind the chime-like attack of my strat. Some of the notes aren't picked but just sustain out from just fretting a note. Also, notice how on chords it is the lowest note that tends to sustain...

The battery was running a little flat, but you can see that it still works ok.

Mainly though...i'd like some feedback on this site that I'm using to host it "soundclick". It's kind of a free MP3 hosting site, kind of a photobucket for sound. Anyway, if it works ok for people it may be of wider interest as it is a simple and free way of posting sound on forums like PG...pete

[jbm222]

Mainly though...i'd like some feedback on this site that I'm using to host it "soundclick". It's kind of a free MP3 hosting site, kind of a photobucket for sound. Anyway, if it works ok for people it may be of wider interest as it is a simple and free way of posting sound on forums like PG...pete

I have a soundclick page that I've put my recordings on. Most of it's old. I used to have an ebow, which I used on "Lewisberg". But as far as the site is concerned, I've been pretty happy with it. When I get some this thing working, I'll record something and put it on there. It will probably be 2 weeks minimum though, because the guitar I'm installing it on is getting a fresh paint job starting tomorrow.

Edited January 16, 2006 by jbm222

[psw]

OK...the thread slipped back to page three again and yet there has been almost a thousand visits since christmas looking at about 33,700 or thereabouts.

Anyway, the point of this page is to alert sustainerphiles to the presence of the sustainer project on yet another forum...Guitar Nuts

I see a lot of the visits are by "visitors" but do feel free to join in and welcome to any of you Guitar Nuts to PG and the infamous "big a%%" sustainer thread...pete (aka 4real at guitarnuts)

[FoneBone]

Here are some 3D-pics of my sustainer-board:

FoneBone

P.S.: It's really cool what you can do with Eagle and POVray, isn't it?!

[psw]

Wow...I was just going to ask "how did you do that"?

P.S.: It's really cool what you can do with Eagle and POVray, isn't it?!

That's very neat...so are you going to make it?

How is your driver and circuit going by the way...is everything testing out ok?? Have you worked out how to get the thing onto/into your guitar yet?

I notice that you've even located an LED on board. You may wish to add a diode acroos the power terminals to protect it from someone putting the battery in back to front or wiring it up wrong...i always do

The other thing is to consider how these switches will fit into the guitar...you will have a set distance (like fernandes do) between them which will force the location of the circuitboard. Many will find that this will not work for them and wires will need to come off for all switches (as was shown in that Kramer/Fernandes fittout linked earlier) to adapt it.

Also, I notice a lot of inputs...it's not quite clear how you are switching the neck pickup off and selecting the bridge with the 3pdt. My present thinking is to have the circuit idling at all times (using a switch jack for power) and switching the driver in and out of circuit. This should eliminate the "pop" on turn off (caused by driver backlash) and is the only way according to many experts to deal with the problem. In many ways it simplifies it.

I notice also that you have only two trimmers (one to trim for the transistor bias and one for the LM386 gain). This should be fine and I like the fact that you have them on the reverse side (though you'll need a two sided board I assume). My current thinking is that even the gain pot may not be strictly necessary and could be simply bridged (connecting pins 1 & 8 of the LM386) if you wanted...running the thing flat out.

Perhaps you could post the schematic so that it could be checked over.

opps...you have on page 72 !! Link to page 72

There are a few new members who may be able to offer improvements or suggestions too. I certainly looks spiffy!! At the moment I am looking at developing a new circuit that will have better power specs, no trimpots and be perhaps even smaller. My inclination is also to reduce the number of connections to make the thing easier to install in line with my "complete unit replacing the neck pickup" idea. If anyone knows much about electronic switching, a board could utilized to handle all the switching and give more options in regards to switching. I can see a way for instance where SMD tactile switches and led's could be mounted on a tiny control panel, or even built into a pickup ring making the thing a truely no mod device and convieniant to operate too. But perhaps I'm thinking too far ahead again. Thoughts, anyone?

Anyway, very nice work...almost fell off the chair when I saw that!!! Looks like 2006 will be a good year for sustaining

Edited January 21, 2006 by psw

[psw]

I just added a new little demo tune at soundclick

The Yearning

Actually worth a listen, I'm starting to get the hang of this thing now. Basically, I changed the battery recently and it's so much better. I have been showing off some of the more extreme harmonic functions but it is actually more responsive in Fundumental mode.

One of the tricks is to play much lighter than usual. On this track I'm starting to get the hang of imitating woodwind sounds and getting the chord sounds to sustain a little more. The breathy sound is partly cause with a light touch there is a little bit of swell in the notes, more voice like and the strings slightly hit the frets giving it a kind of breathy quality. Well worth a listen and only a little clip.

Enjoy...pete

[GregP]

I like it! I could use one of those.