psw Posted July 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2006 Oh...I forgot to mention MiS....that's some far out processing and sound sculptuer you are getting into there. I see you make extensive use of the fretless guitar, I assume you are aware of the fretless guitar forum. I really think the sustainer is vital for this instrument as it allows for elongated notes and a beautiful melodic and harmonic potential (infinite microtones and sustain). The fretless guitar can have a fantastic vocal quality. Perhaps not what you are into perhaps...I do lean towards the melodic I guess than the pure sound approach...but is interesting. The only thing quite like that was a track I put up called "static field" which uses a loop and various layers of sustainer guitar 4tune8 - Sound Click site of sustainer sounds this is where I post stuff now to demo stuff... Keep on, keeping on... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE MAD GUITARIST Posted July 30, 2006 Report Share Posted July 30, 2006 HEy guys back after a long break so i'm planing to make oone of these assoon i get a suitable guitar for it, I'm thinking of using a Marshall MS-4 Guts for this, what do you think? I can't get good parts for such projects on our market so i have to go this way, I'm planing on using a strat and making it Hardtail so i'll most likly use the trem cavity for teh Amp and battery. My problem is with teh controlss what do i need to control? It has three pots, Tone, Volume and Gain. As for pickups i use only a Hubucer and a single, the hum will eb non splitable in this case, each PU's have an own Volume but i use a regular DPDT switch to ad the single in series with the hum. So i can have only B or B/N combo. For this guitar i want to put the single in the middle position and the driver in the neck. I think a four pole switch will work. I want the On/Off switch to turn on the AMP. But also i want it to switch to the Neck position, and use the midle PU for teh amp signal ONLY, is it possible? I'll post the diagrams later when i look at my other guitars carefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donbenjy Posted July 30, 2006 Report Share Posted July 30, 2006 Hi, I tried searching, but I don't think the search tool likes me, and 99 pages is alot to browse through Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has tried making a driver in a humbucker shape? (i.e. stacked ontop of it, not in the 2nd coil position)/ I've got an old strat project with a P90 neck (humbucker sized, hence the question) and a motherbucker bridge...I guess that there's already alot of information, so sorry if this has been asked before, but how does a wider driver perfom, compared to a single coil sized one? Does my idea sound practical? I haven't really ever looked inside this pickup, and my experience with guitars and electronics stops shrt of knowing whether the P90 is suitible to "butcher" to get a driver ontop! Would it mean unwinding the coil and starting again with a blade? as that's not really feasible...I does have adjustible polepeices though...I wonder if I could lower the P90 by routing the cavity lower, and then extending the polepieces high enough to let me wind the driver around them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE MAD GUITARIST Posted July 30, 2006 Report Share Posted July 30, 2006 Back again ) So this is pretty much what i thought out, i don't use teh Neck Only position, it'S basicly moded after a Les paul without tone pots and teh switch is diferent. Not sure if it'll work, leaving the cables disconected but i think it wont do nothing and with the middle volume pot muted i can use the switch as a cutter it'S basicly what i have running on my other guitar. Sorry for the mess it changed drasticly during it's making. ) Oh and the switch in the bottom right corner is a 3DPDT or what, just a ONE BIG SWITCH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted July 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Mad G...long time no see...it's been a year! Not sure if that switching looks right... The single coil is a driver right (ie not a pickup?)? If so...then you only need turn the amp on and wire direct to the driver via a harmonic switch (you don't seem to have that in there)...you don't want that drive signal to go to the volume/tone controls and to the output...or is that the input? You are missing two more leads to the amp...that is what is confusing me...you have the power leads, input leads (direct from the bridge pickup to the amp) and the output (the speaker leads) to the driver... So, no...something is not quite right there...sorry donbenjy Ben is trying to wind a P90 pickup/driver combo at the moment...so maybe that will help. I can only really vouch for something that is a little smaller in size than a single coil and 3mm thick. Now you could put this on top of the wide p90 coil (might look a bit strange) or wind a separate driver to go next to it with it's own magnet, and leave the pickup alone...it is an option. Primal recently succesfully built a driver from one half of a humbucker by blocking up one bobbin to 3mm on an LP (the other half a pickup is unused). I don't think you want a wider driver, either in the core as we have been discussing lately, and the windings will be no larger than 1cm wide if wound to 8 ohms on a 3mm core at a 3mm depth. Does that make any sense? Possibly, you could wind the driver and have the existing P90 below it and get the cover back on some how...may need new screw poles to get the depth...Ben is adapting and actually rewinding the entire pickuop, but reports that he has wound the driver already...well have to see if that is applicable to your ideas. You wont want to rewind the pickup if you can avoid it. Anyway...hope that helps a little... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donbenjy Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Hey, thanks for the reply! i don't think putting a driver next to the P90 is feasible, since the strat is routed HSH and I wouldn't imagine either the P90, or the driver would suit being in the middle position (although I guess if i took away the divider between the midle and neck pockets, the P90 might be ok shoved over right next to the driver, but I'd rather try to stack it! Sorry, do you mean 3mm in height (i.e. going down into the body), so I could route about 5mm down into the cavity and it'd be sorted (the pickup is annoying close to the strings, as it's fairly deep anyway). I don't see a problem with having the driver on top of the pickup, although would this hinder the P90's capability as the pole pieces will be below another magnet and coil (from the driver). Not sure if I can even get the pickup apart yet, it's a KA P90 and it looks like this . If i can find really long pole peices, would it be possible to extend them above the pickup, and place a bobbin for the driver around them? Has anyone tried a driver with pole peices instad of a rail? Ideally, It'd be good to see if there was room under the cover to put the driver in, but if not, I'm happy to mount it on the top. Cheers for the help! Oh yeah, does the cavity need to be shielded to use the driver well? I do have copper shielding, but the bottom will need to be removed when I route downwards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Enamel Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Has anyone tried a driver with pole peices instad of a rail? Yes, I have... Originally, my driver just used the alinco pole piece slugs from the pickup. It worked but as I bent away from the pole the sustain faded. So I cut a 5mm steel core from a strip of welders steel and just set it on top of the poles and pushed them down into the flatwork of the pickup. Bends worked much better. So, that confirms that theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Enamel Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 (edited) I don't know how to delete a post, so I'm just changing the content. Still no luck with harmonic mode. I'm going back to the breadboard. I'll keep you posted. Edited July 31, 2006 by Tony Enamel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Enamel Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 (edited) I seem to have posted the same reply 3 times! Sorry for that. Edited July 31, 2006 by Tony Enamel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donbenjy Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 lol, thanks! That's really useful! Now I just need to find someone who's taken a P90 similar to mine apart to find out how much space there is inside! I guess I could start out by prototyping the amp and winding a basic driver and then just sticking it to the top of the P90 for now anyway...the long-term implementation will have to wait abit I guess...I'm poor right now anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donbenjy Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 lol, thanks! That's really useful! Now I just need to find someone who's taken a P90 similar to mine apart to find out how much space there is inside! I guess I could start out by prototyping the amp and winding a basic driver and then just sticking it to the top of the P90 for now anyway...the long-term implementation will have to wait abit I guess...I'm poor right now anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE MAD GUITARIST Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Hi, yeah i had alot of work at school and such. But the sustainer was hunting me teh whole year ) The SIngle is another Pickup i run these two the output Jack is marked in the lower part and i want to use the MS-4 as the amp for the driver, that is how it's ment when turned off i could use the single but when turned on the signal from the single goes directly to the MS-4 which powers the driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE MAD GUITARIST Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 (edited) I hope this is more acurate, i'm pretty sure it works, i didn't ad the sustainer controls like phase switch etc, i'm just bithered by teh main guitar wiring. I even think that while having bothe PU's on and turning the Sustainer on the sound wount cut out but only the Single gets out of the mix Edited July 31, 2006 by THE MAD GUITARIST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted July 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Hi there Mad G It's 4:20 am and I have to zip off to work now....but I looked a bit closer at what you are trying to do... I think a four pole switch will work. I want the On/Off switch to turn on the AMP. But also i want it to switch to the Neck position, and use the midle PU for teh amp signal ONLY, is it possible? No...running the signal from the middle pickup will not be possible...but there is no nead too. If you take a direct feed from the bridge pickup (in addition to the wires to the controls) and permanently connect them to the sustainer amp...this will work. Just disconnect the wires from the switch to the amp from the mid pickup so that the thing is completely disconnected. As you always have the bridge on, if the mid is disconnected, you will still have the bridge so you wont need a more complex bypass system. You could wire the bridge pickup directly to the S-amp and then to the controls which achieves the same thing. You are on the right track, but before you set out to mod and plan switches to much, see if you can get this thing working for you. I am not sure of the circuit of the little Marshall, if it has the necessary buffer, but it probably does...maybe someone on the net has the circuit drawn up. The only concern there would be loading, but as it is built for guitars, it should be ok. pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Enamel Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 100 PAGES OF SUSTAINER BABBLE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE MAD GUITARIST Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 I see !! Yeah, well I'm working this whole month as i need a new 4x12" but i'll have some dough left so I'll get fully into this, i was just fidlin with the ideas. Maybe I'll build the driver in my spare time for a start. I think I'll be fully working on this in september. I supose teh bridge PU should be vired parallel to the MS-4 and controls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiS Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 MiS - Don't you hate it when the PG forum rejects the quotes...it's something to do with too many"" it seems...oh well... hmm... will try to keep it down Progress I finally made my coil. I didn't have any ferrite around (I'm on the lookout for some old disposed radios as apparently we can find ferrite core coils in the shortwave antennas) but I did it with a steel (seems like it) core. I got it from an old pickup (that had one little rod per string) so I figured I can't be entirely wrong. Unfortunately I don't have any magnets around so I took this huge magnet (from the same pickup) for testing purposes... The core is about 15mm tall, 5mm round. I wrapped around 300 turns of coil wire (0.2mm i believe) as per your suggestion. I skipped the glue part (just because I was eager to run a test and did not have any useable glue around) and, well, perhaps it's not tight enough. But anyways, I got it working! First I tried to feed it the guitar. It actually worked quite fine as a crude sustainer (I guess I am where you were 2 years ago? ) The only thing is that I have to keep the coil very close to the strings and it does not drive the string hard enough. I guess some adjustments in coil construction/amp circuit are in order... My second test was to drive it with a sine oscillator (and still keep a bit feedback of the guitar signal, of course). It works. I can go up to 3rd harmonic, the 4th is very weak. I would like to go higher, I guess adjusting the strength of the driving coil should improve the overtone reaching. Side note Just fooling around with magnetic feedback (is that what you call it?) when bringing the driver near active pickups makes great sounds. By varying guitar's volume and tone and the amount of feedback (though my mixer) and a little EQ made som beautifully ugly noises. I know I am not the only one playing with magnetic fields (Theremin come to mind) but I think I will use this technique on my upcoming show (this Saturday). The show will be recorded, so watch out. Are we still talking guitar here, of some kind of electromagnetic aeolian harp? Haha! I like this term. Although there is nothing of aeolian in this but this is, in principle, what I am after. I was never aiming to produce experimental sounds from this device but to extend the potential of the guitar as an instrument. The sustainer really does hold the promise of adding a whole new vocabulary to the guitar in terms of technique and musicality... Actually, I am not interested in creating experimental sounds with this. Just going back to basics, pure intervals, harmonic series and the like. Also, a different approach to playing the instrument. I can code live and drive it to create beautiful algorhythmic music, reduce the CPU usage (right now my efx use about 70% CPU) and start doing some visuals with spare cycles If the sustainer can add to the vocabulary of the guitar, I may even be tempted to get back to playing more "conventionally". Keep it up On the other hand, I would like to know what is the amp you people are using to drive the sustainer? Is it the Fetzer-Ruby that I saw mentioned? Also, Pete, now that I've got my feet wet, I would like to start exploring the possibility of using the phase cancellation to control attack and note length. I believe I read you talk about this somewhere... Is it possible to have such control or am I dreaming in color? Anyways, thanks. I'm sure I will have more questions as I experiment. ./MiS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Theremins do not operate via electromagnetic feedback. There is no coil in a theremin, just two antennas. Theremins operate based on the capacitance of the human body and high frequency radio waves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spazzyone Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Have any of you seen this http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5932827.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Have any of you seen this http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5932827.pdf Sorry, that wont work for me...perhpas tell us or link ti USPTO site Interesting post MiS...will reply more soon... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spazzyone Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 try it like this http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5932827.html scroll down and open the .pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Very interesting, spazzyone. However, it seems far more complicated than the system being developed here. That magnet design was brought up earlier in the post, but it wasn't accompanied by the rest of the drawings. That patent gives me an idea for using a full-sized humbucker as the driver. By winding the coils (probably 4 ohms each in series, I'm guessing -- 16 ohms each in parallel would be too much trouble) and wiring them OUT of phase, they would be in phase with each other once the magnets are in place (one coil using N, the other S). Thus, when both coils are driving the string, the magnetic field is more focused and, theoretically, you would be able to pump more power into the coil, thus improving the speed of the device. I need another guitar to test this out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 Yes...the bi-lateral driver...there is a picture posted here somewhere... You will find that both Sustainiac and Fernandes use such designs. It is not really a matter of speed improvement, it is more like a humbucker-driver. The bi-lateral driver emits equal and opposite EMI in an attempt to reduce interferance with the guitars pickup. This may allow more power to be used, but more power, requires more power...as a result fernandes (used to) run off two 9 volt batteries for instance. Fernandes' original verison was even more interesting...the two coils spanned all strings, was like a stacked coil...on it's side!!! Dizzy built one and can be heard on the sound thread. He was able to mount it in the middle position and although could not get harmonic function, he was able to use either the neck or bridge pickup, and drive it from them in a strat (no mid pickup) to great results...great sound clip too. However, his secret electronics with phase compensation (a feature of all the commercial sustainer circuits) makes it a difficult project electronically. Now, my approach to my Thin Driver Design, was to limit EMI and address the speed issue, by the physical shape and depth of the driver design. There are other advantages too, like the ability to combine the pickup and the driver into one unit and share the magnet. The result is that it can be driven by very simple amplification. That is not to say that the merits of bi-lateral/twin coil designs should be ignored...far from it. My Hex designs used effectively 6 driving elements all very small (like the thin driver idea), balanced magnetic fields (a whole different area to explore), magnetic shielding (for which more could be done with this design, and driver element/coil orientation (like, but different in my designs, to fernandes side coil idea. A lot of these ideas are not unique but various apparitions of similar principles. The bi-lateral driver is similar in concept to fenders (and later G&L's) split humbucker z coils, most famously done in the precision bass pickup. Now...will it work better than a fully developed single coil simple design on the thin driver model I have presented...possibly. I would like to develop a bi-lateral, thin coil design at some point. But, remember, the commercial units still suffer from the same difficulties (wiring and the use of only the bridge pickup, and EMI problems) as our simple DIY version to produce a similar result. The thin driver combo pickup/driver idea is the only combination of conventional passive pickup design (no active implementation of the driver coil as a pickup) and driver, giving you the best of both worlds. Remember the KISS principle! My present feeling is that more complexity to achieve the same result is not warranted at this level of Sustainer Technology. Is it really worth all the extra effort to create such designs unless there is some clear performance advantage at the end of it? Anyway, if you can think of novel ways to build this stuff or wish to experiment, there is always people interested in hearing your ideas here! Now when I wake up a little more, I may get back to MiS's post... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 MiS Ok...got a little time...for those who don't know what an Aeolian Harp is, here's a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolian_harp Basically an ancient "instrument" with some strings that are blown by the wind, producing sounds from nature. Interlectualizing this, you could make a harp equiped with sustainers that are triggered by such things as data from midi, documents, radio, radio waves, seismic movements, sun spots, solar winds...maybe even the beats and frequencies of distant pulsars...neato! Anyway, certainly you could compose signals on a computer, harmonic and phase relationships to drive strings electromagnetically to produce and interesting...ummm...thingy! Just a little lateral thinking there... Anyway, to MiS's post... The Fetzer Ruby was proposed as a simple amplifier circuit to run the sustainer from. It is what most people are using, though I have something a little different, though on the same lines. It puts out about 0.25 watts from a 9 volt battery and is based on the LM386 amp chip and a FET preamp. The details can be found in the tutorial. Perhaps it is time again to post the associated links to the DIY sustainer... Sustainer Sounds Thread Sustainer Tutorial there are a few more along with this thread, but that is the main thing and there are links to others. Basically, you want some kind of amplification that can drive the driver and not load the pickup when run in parallel. The aim should really be that the sustainer is transparent, that is other than infinite sustain, the original sound of the instrument is retained. This can be distored and modified as required as normal. One of the unique sounds of a sustainer is that it can produce clean feedback at any volume, even acoustically or through headphones...the guitar will play itself in it's case if you don't turn the thing off!!! I finally made my coil. Well, ferrite isn't essential. I found you could get little ferrite slugs for EMI suppression in cables from electronic stores and for making inductors as found in radios. It is impossible to cut though, so don't get any plans! Ordinary steel, even a little bolt would do the trick (ferrite has some unique properties though), you could even wind the coil around a tiny magnet itself. OK...well the glue part is important, otherwise the windings will try and vibrate (especially if loose) instead of the strings, and create their own signals too in the EMI...not ideal. 300 turns could be right for a small coil like this...but it really should be measured so that you get between 6-8 ohms to run from a typical amp. 15mm tall is 5 times the recomendation of the thin driver principle. My original single string coil was 5mm tall as I recall. It was stunning what this could do...the strings would vibrate with incredible force and power to the extent of their ability to move...they crashed into the frets though...lol. Stll all the amps power was being concentrated on moving a single string with no competing frequencies in a very small area...not a very practical device for a player of a guitar...still, with your interests, perhaps such coils would be adequate! It works. I can go up to 3rd harmonic, the 4th is very weak. I would like to go higher, Well, the higher you go, the less physical movement and the more movement is being suppressed by the driver so these high harmonics are going to get weaker and weaker. Also, one can only hear to a certain frequency so super high harmonics on a typical guitar string are going to be inaudiable to most of the audience...unless playing to a dog pound! Of course, if you were to ignore the guitar part, and try doing it with an electric bass...now you'd be getting soimething, and the thicker strings are easier to drive...but you still may have problems at super high harmonics, they are by definition weak! Still, making progress. Just fooling around with magnetic feedback (is that what you call it?) when bringing the driver near active pickups makes great sounds. Well, yes if you like ocillating uncontrolled feedback squeal...oh, you do...well yes then , it does...hahahaha Theremins do not operate via electromagnetic feedback. There is no coil in a theremin, just two antennas. Theremins operate based on the capacitance of the human body and high frequency radio waves. This is true primal...radio waves are used to trigger off and control internal electronic oscillators. You can get very similar sounds via the electromagnetic oscillation feedback effect. You can make theramin type effects though with a sustainer guitar fitted with a tremolo with a wide range or a frettless guitar. The tremolo can control the extended pitch of a note and a volume pedal or control could work the dynamics...the harmonic switch or FX processing the timbre too if you wish. Also, Pete, now that I've got my feet wet, I would like to start exploring the possibility of using the phase cancellation to control attack and note length. I believe I read you talk about this somewhere... Is it possible to have such control or am I dreaming in color? Possibly. One of the problems with driving the feedback loop is that the signal from the driver...the electromagnetic forces on the string...need to be in phase with the actual physical vibration on the string. If it is completely out of phase (as our harmonic switch does) it will try to stop the vibration of the string. In otherwords...when the string is moving up, the driver needs to be doing the same. There are problems with this, especially at high speeds/frequencies. The driver coil has some latentcy and there is a little delay in the circuitry too so it is not perfectly in phase and the higher the frequencies, the more critical these delays become. The commercial units (Sustainiac, et al) address this problem by electronic circuits that cause a compensating delay in the signal to put it back in phase with the vibration of the string. This circuitry is complex and in itself will cause further delay, requiring compensation. I approached it by driver design that was fast enough to work without compensation of this kind, or the compensation was built into the design itself (as in some of the hex designs with drivers tailored for each string). Another approach is what you can do with an Ebow...move the driver to correct phase...simple! Anyway...since you are driving strings by electronic means (and as such I feel the guitar itself is becoming supurfluous in the exercise), you could control various parts of the note (attack, duration decay and timbre) by processing means...with some limitations. I am not sure that more satisfying results could not be made purely with synthesis though, leaving the physical world behind completely. Still there's no accounting for the esoteric...there is a guy down here that plays wire fences and telephone wire. If you go down to a yacht clu on a windy day, you can hear amazing aelolian harp effects with percussion, now if you could only get them to tune the rigging to a chord...lol. It is interesting though, the natural harmonic series...there is a more natural "in-tune-ness" about it. Hence the buzz fetlin tuning system, etc. There is also something magical about the harmonics of strings too, a kind of purity or something. To dream in colour a little, being able to coax harmonics out of any fretted note on the guitar is getting there with the sustainer, and is possible on my guitar to some degree. The sustainer (for want of a better term) is not just about "sustain" but a wide range of effects and technical possibilities to do with the tone and range of the guitar. If one thinks about a violin, it is little more than a poor mans ukelale with out the bow...perhaps if sound could develop a truely polyphonic sustainer system for the guitar, it would have a similar effect on the instrument and the sounds that it could make...who knows...but it is a way, aways for the moment. For now, this sustainer technology brings the guitar "alive" in a unique way and offers a lot of scope for musical expression, in addition to all that is great about the guitar itself...and that is quite a bit. If you are happy to experiment without a plan, do so...If I were you, I'd try making one of these and fitting it to a fretless guitar, that really transforms the instrument that, due to a lack of frets, has a chronic lack of sustain...except on the bass of course, wheich is a stunning sound if played well. An interesting era in the sustainer thread...100 pages, who would have thought! On one hand we have successful working DIY sustainers and a blueprint for future development that actually works in a practical way...and ont the other, a continued interest in development and pushing the boundries of the concept as a whole. This is very much the intention of the thread...Sustainer Ideas", keep them coming... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Enamel Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 Hey guys, When I switch to harmonic mode, should my tone change? I thought it would not but, it does. The tone goes really trebley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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