Sustainer Ideas

[onelastgoodbye]

NICE!!

[curtisa]

Can you double check the coil core width for me, it sounds like it will be close. I try and make them 57mm as suggested, but sometimes they are a hair narrower. I am attempting to solve the problem by machining "production" bobbins with integral cores. The prototype jig made a vastly improved coil, but machining them is very tricky to get the core as I want it.

Assuming by "core width" you mean the distance from the outer edge of the treble pole piece to the outer edge of the bass pole piece, I still measure 57mm in mine. I don't think it shrunk too much since I washed it last

[mrjstudios]

Ooooo, pretty driver coil....

That kind of smoothed-looking precision is something I appreciate, having made some very horrible looking driver coils myself.

By the way, I checked the original measurements I made a while back of my pickups -- they are perfectly accurate, so you can use them as a reference for most strat copy/cheap electronics strat guitars.

-MRJ

[psw]

NICE!!

That kind of smoothed-looking precision is something I appreciate, having made some very horrible looking driver coils myself.

Thanks...it is taking a lot of work to get them to come out like this...it is the only way to get this amount of wire in such a small space. As you can see, the driver leads are secured in a thin ribbon as Col suggested.

One problem I am having is with the jig that makes the production jigs to make these coils. I will need a few winding spindles and these need to be accurate if these are to be viable as a commercial thing. It is coming along and the principle is sound.

Otherwise, most of the parts have arrived for my hot-rod squier...yesterday I received a genuine JB Seymour Duncan zebra that will look great with the JB fender noiseless.

A lot will have to go into the switching and wiring of this guitar. One new thing is that I have devised a way to make push-pull 4pdt switch pots. I have been trying to bid for S-1 switches and knobs on eBay, but these things are selling for astronomical prices and you need to use the special pots which are also mega expensive! The S-1 is not available from fender as a part.

My push-pull version could be used in exactly the same way with any knob. So, I now want to keep a slick streamlined look to this guitar and so have a push-pull sustainer activation on the volume control (pull for on/bypass), a push-pull on the drive control for harmonic drive (pull for harmonics) and another 4pdt pot for the tone that also provides the functions of the S-1 providing another whole set of pickup selections. So the end result will be very stock looking, just the three knobs and the selector.

I may eventually put a DIY piezo pickup on the trem block to add a few "acoustic" flavors to the alternate selections with a small preamp. Of course these things don't sound "acoustic" but they can add a percussive edge to magnetic pickup sounds...but that would be a future project. The guitar now has a super-switch in it, so the possibilities there are huge. All the pickups are noise canceling, so it should be super quiet too.

This whole guitar is getting a makeover with a lot of new hardware and little innovations here and there...super cool...some surprises too. Will be one unique guitar for a squier...perhaps I am over-capitalizing, but it is a nice looking unique guitar and I'm a kind of one guitar at the time guy. Oh...and I have a new amp coming to complement it which will be really nice and I hope that this will spur me back into playing a lot more once it is completed (between winding coils and stuff).

----

On the theory and stuff there is an interesting discussion going on with a thread here on using FEMM with pickup designs. Of particular interest is this quote from Rick Turner, renown guitar and pickup innovator...

FWIW I got the message below from Rick Turner, who spent many a year working for Gibson on their pickups including coming up with new designs (some of which never made it to market); he now runs his own company.

First of all, I consider aperture to be the length of the string sensed, not the depth of the coil. Secondly, magnetic phenomena drops off as the square of the distance. To think that the bottom turns of wire...the ones farthest away from the strings contribute as much to the voltage as the closest ones is simply to not understand how any of this works. There are things you can do to make the lower turns more efficient, and that's one of the "secrets" of string surrounding pickups like the Rickenbacher horseshoe pickups or some of the National/Valco lap steel pickups.

To test this, wind about 1000 turns of wire on a Strat or Tele style bobbin with the two bobbin plates spaced about 3/16" apart. Use all the same length magnets. Put one bobbin at the very end of the magnets, and the other bobbin at that 3/16" distance. Now try the pickup with the coil closest to the strings. Now flip it upside down so the magnets are at the same distance, but the coil is down at the bottom. Tell me which is louder... No, don't bother; I already know. So now show that to someone who thinks that distance doesn't matter...

A magnetic pickup works in a 3D matrix of flux, coil positioning, and string motion. Everything counts.

"Pancake" coils are inherently more efficient...but such a pickup will sound different. As I said, everything counts...

Note, you will find more induced current in more distant turns with an "iron load" coil core as opposed to a coil that has a ceramic magnet core. String motion will vary the flux at the bottom of a pole magnet...a bit...but won't do that with a ceramic magnet.

Like I said, everything changes everything with mag pickups.

__________________

Rick Turner

www.renaissanceguitars.com

www.d-tar.com

"Pancake coils"...sounds like the things I am making...but I have no idea of the science of this...hmmm

Still pretty busy, but getting organized and still enthusiastic about the project. Have to get used to this camera, I get a lot of flash glare, these photos were taken on the baby no flash mode but comes out a little weird.

[heggis]

Haven't seen it this quiet here ever...

SO to break the silence I'll post some pics of my sustainer that I made last weekend. It works, but it can be improved by making a better driver. The circuit I'm using is the Pre-champ coupled with the champ amplifier that has been mensioned a few times earlier. It is available as a kit from Jaycar and a few other stores. To build my driver I used a bit of wood as the centre of the bobbin, and the ever-reliable CD cover for the top and bottom. I used a flat piece of unknown (but magnetic) metal as a blade core and 0.25 mm enameled wire for the coil. I ran into a few problems that I hope to rectify with a new driver, such as fitting everything together neatly and potting.

Because the blade I was using was quite thin and I had no tools able to cut such a thin slot into the wooden core, I had to cut the core in half, make a slot in it with a file to accomodate the blade and then glue it back together with epoxy (messy!). I then glued on the top and bottom covers and wound the coil. I used PVA for potting, but it was not good enough. On of the problems was that the cover lifted slightly from the wooden core and allowed some of the wire to get between the cover and core. ANother problem was that I probably didn't manage to wind the coil tightly and neatly enough. I suspect that the scatter-winding (that's what Bareknuckle pickups call it) caused some pockets inside the coil that now causes vibration and microphonic feedback.

Now, on to some pictures. This is the driver:

There is some green electricians tape around the coil, and then after trying it I wound some string tightly around it to try to tighten the coil. It didn't do very much. I wanted the see-through cover as I think it looks cool, but it didn't turn out very well, because I made a mess with the glue, and the coil didn't lie tightly enough against it to show very well in most places.

Here is the circuit. The champ is on the right and the pre-champ is on the left.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/he...ng/DSC04766.jpg

I tried the circuit first with a small test-speaker, and can inform you that it makes noise even if you wire the champ and the pre-champ in the wrong order, although music did sound a LOT better after re-wiring it the right way around.

The tools for the job:

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/he...ng/DSC04762.jpg

The piece of wood in the foreground became the core. The little piece of metal on the left became the blade of the driver. The straight-edge may become the blade in a future driver. You can see why i would use it, seeing as it is useless as a straightedge as I've written on it. Oh well, it was only AUD $2. However, I'll need to find a way to cut a narrow slot into the wood. Alternatively I have some round metal which is the perfect size for some pole pieces.

My setup:

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/he...ng/DSC04764.jpg

I use crocodile clips (aligator clips for the americans here) to connect everything. I hold the driver over the strings, and yes, it does sustain well for as long as I let the strings ring. However, as soon as I venture closer to the pickups than the 15th fret everything starts squealing and I get a high pitched feedback. I can also hear what I'm playing from the driver, that is how much it vibrates. I haven't really been able to test it's full potential seeing as I have to use one hand to hold it and then simply tap notes with the other, but it sustains all the strings from open up to a few frets from where I hold the driver. The low E-string is prone to harmonics and the high E-string needs to be fairly close to the driver to sustain, but it still works.

I might try to build a new driver if the weather is nice tomorrow (I work outside), although it has been storming today, so we'll see.

Hope to see some more progress around here soon.

Heggis

[mrjstudios]

I can also hear what I'm playing from the driver, that is how much it vibrates.

Uhmmm....

I think you may have a way overpowered driver, or maybe just a super-microphonic driver here.

You shouldn't be able to hear any sound from the driver....

Plus, the fact that you can't get it anywhere near installation distance from the pickups without squeeling would indicate to me that it is overpowered.

But good job anyway so far. Your circuit looks really simple and clean. And at least you have a working driver period at the moment.... (I managed to screw up both my circuit and drivers now....)

-MRJ

[psw]

I has been quiet, and I apologize for my absence but there are some pressing matters that I need to attend to I am afraid. Apologies also to JPL and others who have emailed me, will have some more time in the near future if I can overcome some of these things.

The driver heggis is the problem. I don't see any reason for the wooden part of the coil. wrap electrical tape around the steel blade and wind around that! The problems you are experiencing are a result of the driver vibrating and generating it's own signals. That is why you can hear it.

The champ/prechamp will work and I have some mods for the prechamp if you want them, to provide even more power. I do not think that the circuit is overpowering the thing but that the coil is not of sufficient quality nor quite fits the specifications I have suggested. A good start though and on the right track. Most have to have a couple of goes at the driver.

As for my projects. Much of this has been suspended but I am working of a couple of related things for my guitar extravaganza.

On the sustainer front, but with other applications, I am making a new kind of switch. This is a push pull pot with a collar around the low part of the knob with a trigger that operates a 4pdt switch. With this one control then, you can switch on the sustainer, have the drive control pot and pull it to enable harmonic function. It could also be used as the equivalent of the S-1 switch to change the pickup selections completely, plus the push pull dpdt switch for more functions.

I have made a battery compartment in behind the tremolo. I have also installed a piezo element into the neck pocket. SO, the options affordable to three of these switches with both dpdt and 4pdt switching capabilities hidden into the three control pots, plus a super switch, provides a powerful potential for options. I have even a mind to tap the noise canceling coils of the noiseless pickups to work with the humbucker to provide a noiseless split single coil option.

Anyway...I thought it best to test the new sustainer in my own guitar before unleashing it on the testers. especially given the turmoil presently in my personal life. This should be a very interesting guitar though...I wonder if a heavily modified guitar like this would be eligible for the GOTM competition.???

better run... pete

[heggis]

Thanks for you replies!

mrjstudios; I think the issue is, as you call it, supermicrophony  on the drivers part. If the driver is too strong, should I expect the sustained note to rise in volume or not? As it is now, it sustains it, but the volume stays level.

The driver heggis is the problem. I don't see any reason for the wooden part of the coil. wrap electrical tape around the steel blade and wind around that! The problems you are experiencing are a result of the driver vibrating and generating it's own signals. That is why you can hear it.

Yes, I also think that the driver is the main problem. However, there is a trimpot on the champ, so i could experiment with turning it down a little. Do you normally have controls on the face of the guitar to adjust the strength/gain of the amplifier, or do you just set it to full and leave it there?

The champ/prechamp will work and I have some mods for the prechamp if you want them, to provide even more power. I do not think that the circuit is overpowering the thing but that the coil is not of sufficient quality nor quite fits the specifications I have suggested. A good start though and on the right track. Most have to have a couple of goes at the driver.

I have put a piece of wire instead of the resistor between pin 1 and 8 already as suggested in the instructions to bring the gain up to 200. Are there any other mods?

What are the specifications I have gotten wrong (apart from the wooden core)? I have tried reading what the consensus on the best driver is, but there are so many different ones (and so many pages), that I am still not sure. The enameled wire I got was the only gauge I could get my hands on, but I 

ight try finding a slightly thinner one, such as 32AWG. However, the driver is working with the one I'm using now (30AWG), so maybe I should just stick with that. Just try to wind the coil tighter and possibly pot with something other than PVA.

Thanks for your help

Heggis

[psw]

hEGGIS...I work in mm's (metric) as gauges are too confusing (there are US and english as well as others). I have found that 0.2mm wire works best, thinner wire will result in fewer winds for the same resistance and not be effective. Remember, when working with small things like this, the difference between 0.2 and 0.25 is a quarter 25% increase for instance and is significant.

I used a 3mm ordinary steel core with a ceramic magnet below for my driver and the pickup driver with some success. I wound some PVC electrical tape around the core and wound over that. I also cut thin strips of tape to stretch around tightly at the end of winding to ensure that it wasn't going to move anywhere while the glue sets. PVA will work, epoxies and such are very difficult to work with and I went through A$100 worth of product before I found the right stuff to wind my new coils...and I use a machine! Epoxy can be dangerous and superglue is definitely to be avoided.

I have put a piece of wire instead of the resistor between pin 1 and 8 already as suggested in the instructions to bring the gain up to 200. Are there any other mods?

Keep the 10uF cap in there between 1 and 8 as supplied with the champ but replace the resistor with a wire. You could also install a trim pot (1k ohm) to adjust this gain stage, but I didn't find I needed to. A well made driver should not emit any signal and while you may feel some vibration, if you can "hear it" there is definitely something loose in there. Any movement in the driver is energy not being used to drive the strings. You do need to balance the amount of power for a driver, pickup power and given guitar.

I don't have the mod handy, but there is a resistor swap you can do on the pre-champ to increase the gain in that stage which I did find useful, especially with low powered pickups like single coils. This pair is an excellent start for this project and should work well...have to be able to fit it into the guitar of course. My new circuit is about the size of the champ circuit complete

This new control system looks like it will be great, at least for this guitar I am building. The mid control on the strat (with tele style knobs) will work the entire thing. Twist the bottom collar and it turns on and bypasses the selector etc, pull the knob and you get the harmonic function, twist the knob itself for variable drive control. On this guitar it will be very discrete and look like a normal plain chrome tele knob. It has been going so well, I am going to build them into all three controls.

It looks like I will be able to attach the actual circuit to the switch too, so that it can be all wired up and dropped in! The wiring of this guitar is a nightmare though because, as so often happens, I have designed so much into it.

Just on pickup selection, it has a humbucker and two stacked single coils, if I split the HB it is like having 4 pickups. Then there is a piezo installed as well so that is five. Now, if I split the HB to be single coil, I may be able to wire the lower coils of the single coils to provide humbucking functions and power to the bridge pickup split sound.

What I hope to achieve is a range of HB and SC sounds, the ability to add the piezo into any of these and then have an S-1 type function to provide a whole new pallete of sounds from the five way. With these new switch pot, pull and twist controls, I will have a lot of switching power without any visible switches at all.

However...to enable all these option you are looking at 4 conductors per pickup plus the piezo the LED's and the sustainer stuff...a lot of cabling.

Once this one is finished, I will do a more straight ahead version on a few copies to illustrate a few different options perhaps.

got to run again... pete

[col]

Theres some coil winding 'porn' near the start of this clip. Just for you Pete

Col

[mrjstudios]

mrjstudios; I think the issue is, as you call it, supermicrophony on the drivers part. If the driver is too strong, should I expect the sustained note to rise in volume or not? As it is now, it sustains it, but the volume stays level.

Yes, now I can see that "supermicrophony" is the problem!

If the driver is too strong, the strings will rise in volume to a point, and then go out of control and "distort" -- for lack of a better word. I think PSW or Col had this problem at one point, ask them about that.

If the sustained volume is level now, but not too quiet or 'slow' to react, then I would say that your level is about perfect!

As I understand it, {{{30AWG is .25mm wire}}} {{{32AWG is .20mm wire}}}

I used .25mm wire on my single driver (in the youtube video) but I am remaking that one with .20mm wire. PSW and others on this forum have established (and now I have confirmed) that the .20mm is just better for single 8ohm driver coils.

I am working on rebuilding my single coil driver right now, so we'll see how it works with the PSW circuit later on.

-MRJ

[Mike Nolley]

Hi. I'm having trouble getting my sustainer to work. I ordered the suggested "Canakit" CK008 which included both a preamp and 386 amp, but it turns out the impedance was matched for dynamic microphones, not the DIY piezo pickups that I am using. Does anyone have any idea how to change the input impedance of the preamp? Any other suggestions on how to make this baby work better?

Thanks.

--Mike

[psw]

Welcome Mike Nolley

I think I may have suggested this kit as a possibility. Piezo's have a very high impedance, but I would be surprised if this didn't work. The whole field of running a sustainer from piezo's is a little untested. They often have a very high treble bias and other noise that could need to be toned down...a bit out of my field.

Interesting though, as I am doing a DIY piezo system in my present guitar. I don't intend running the sustainer from it as I have mag pickups, although it will sustain with the piezo if I choose.

Give me a little more detail on the DIY piezo system. What kind of preamp are you using for running the piezo's to the amp?

The high impedance of the piezo's generally need some buffering to work properly (you will get a sound of course, but not good) with an amp. An op amp circuit for instance will have a huge input impedance and cope well...but I am surprised if this transistor preamp were not enough.

Also, a little more detail and pics of what you have done to make a driver and how it is being used (guitar type etc.).

I believe it has been tested on an acoustic with piezos in an experiment (by curtisA) but the device will have a lot of trouble driving acoustic strings as bronze is non-magnetic...

pete

[Mike Nolley]

Thanks for your help Pete. I haven't actually built the drivers yet, but they will be driving steel (magnetic) strings on a large acoustic slide-zither. Right now I am testing the "fidelity" with a cheapo speaker. The piezo pickup is not able to drive this preamp except intermittently (at peaks). It makes no sound unless you wail on it, and then it's choppy. Perhaps I should replace this transistor preamp with an op-amp? Or maybe just add an op-amp preamp in series. That would avoid having to replace electronics from these kits. I bought 4, because I will have 4 ranks of strings, so you can see why I'm anxious to keep what I have, if possible.

Thanks again

Mike Nolley

[psw]

Wow...that's a project alright.

I cant see why it is "choppy". How does the piezo sound if plugged into a known working amp? Does these piezos have preamps...are we talking buzzer elements (that's what I am using, mine is in the neck pocket).

I am not familiar with this set up, but you will need to be pretty clever in playing it that all the strings don't feedback. Even on a six string you need to be good at damping. It may require some kind of damping mechanism if you are seeking drones and stuff from the device.

I still think these kits should work out, so there maybe something else going on...even a faulty part or something (say a cap) in the wrong way...

good luck... pete

[Mike Nolley]

I did double check the wiring, and the CK008's are fine. They work fine with a dynamic microphone, which is what they are designed for, impedance wise.

I haven't tried a regular pickup, but I'm a little short on funds at the moment. I will check to see if the piezos work through my mixer. They are from buzzers, so they don't come with any kind of preamp, just a little self-oscillator.

As for the mechanics of the instrument itself, the different ranks of strings (side by side, with individual slides on each, mounted on drawer slides) will have separate bridges with separate pickups. Are you saying that the other strings will start vibrating randomly even if they are not plucked?

I will post pics of the instrument when I get a chance. It's a bit unusual..I've been working on microtonal concepts for the last couple of years.

--Mike

[psw]

Are you saying that the other strings will start vibrating randomly even if they are not plucked?

Yes!

The lower strings first. Everything needs to be damped down as even the slightest vibration will cause a signal which will build up through the feedback loop. For example, one technique is to lightly tap a note, or simply fret it, and the note will bloom and swell from nothing to maximum vibration. My newer circuit has some gain control so that it will release before it goes too far, but still this is the effect. A guitar left on it's own with the sustainer on, even if not plugged in, will play itself!

There will also be cross talk between the pickups if using multiple sensors like this, of course with multiple sensors and driver amps and such, you will be able to turn off banks of strings, etc. One option may be to have felt damping pads with this kind of instrument. With the guitar there are techniques for controlling damping that may be hard to achieve with an instrument such as yours.

pete

[teddybear]

any update to the tutorial?

why didn't update the first page?

[psw]

any update to the tutorial?

why didn't update the first page?

I don't quite follow TB

The tutorial was started by GalagaMike if that is the one you mean, so I can't change anything but my replies on that...GM has not been around for a loooong time.

It has been a bit quiet on here, I have been bogged down in personal issues and been encouraged to keep under wraps what I am doing with the "commercial" side of things. There has been a really interesting and exciting development however in collaboration with a independent US builder and a major artist that involves the device I have been developing.

pete

[teddybear]

kidda confuse follow the thread to 233 pages.

that't why any update/change log from mike started?

thx

[psw]

OK TB

I don't think there is a lot of change....for the circuit if you are going to do the fetzer-ruby thing, I can recomend a visit to bianka's site...diy layout creator and sustainer tutorial site. You will need to download the program and the circuit...all free and fantastic!

Mr B converted a pickup into a driver where as I convert pickups into drivers and pickups. You can check out the pictorial of how I made my first one via the link below in my sig.

Over the last year or so there have been a lot of developments and experiments. Dual coil drivers have featured prominently as have alternate circuits which are more complex but give a more sophisticated response.

I am working on a new version for a kit that will convert a pickup into a pickup driver with no physical modification and have a new circuit to go with it. This is not a DIY device as it is a little tricky to make, but should be a very cost effective and innovative alternative to the commercial systems available with a lot of advantages such as choice or retaining the neck pickup.

Turning an idea into a prototype is one thing, being able to make it in a time and cost efficient manner to be able to supply it to others though is causing quite a few problems. There has been quite a bit of interest and I am encouraged by this so continue to develop it and processes to build it. An opportunity has presented itself to have a prototype fitted and built into a custom instrument for a major artist, this is not an endorsement deal or anything, but it could be of great benefit to the project so am tied up on getting at least this unit out there and will most likely be able to tell you more in January if all comes together.

Meanwhile, still here for any specific questions about the DIY version and to discuss anything. Don't be put off by the big thread here and don't worry if you feel a question has been asked before, most have by now, so we probably have the answer. I encourage those other regulars to continue to add to the discussion and help people out while I am distracted by other things...

good luck

pete

[socrot]

Hey all,

Wow, what a crazy thread.. this is the most information I've been able to find about the sustainer electronics and rightfully so. Great job!!

So I guess my question is a little rediculous. The thing is, I'm not really an electrician. I just know how to move fingers on a fretboard. But here goes...

In the tutorial http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24211 pete explains the building process of a driver, I love it. Would it be very much different to use this process for a 7 string pickup? It doesn't have to be a single coil right? It was mentioned that some have adopted Dual coil drivers.

I would like a dual core driver, single is fine if I can't, for my project.

Thanks in advance!

[psw]

Hi there...

Here's a little teaser of the first "production" prototype and first published picture of my circuit...check it out. This one is for my secret project...

Not much time right now but...Welcome socrot

Would it be very much different to use this process for a 7 string pickup?

I have had a few people interested in seven string sustainers. You can not by such a device (although I think sustainiac may at one time have made them.

You could make one, bass strings are far easier to drive, even bass guitar strings, so you should have no problem in that respect. Making a dual coil driver is a little trickier and I am not sure if the formula is really complete. Avalon made an HB sized driver with quite a bit of success, but it doesn't work as a pickup so it replaces the neck pickup completely. I have plans for an HB sized driver/pickup...if the circuit is practical to produce in number, this could be used to drive such a device...

The driver pickup design in my pictorial would work on a single coil seven string pickup I suspect, just as well...but if you have an HB in there, it is perhaps not the best solution.

Hope you guys like the pic and I hope something more will come of it in the near future...my personal life does seem to intrude. I am also working on an amazing guitar with a lot of neat tricks and electronics in it...if it works out as well as it seems I intend to enter it in GOTM and give it it's own thread to explain it all...watch out and vote for it when it appears...more later

pete

[Franky]

Wow, what did happen to that PCB? It's not good to solder under the snow...

I've downloaded the Installation PDFs from Fernandes' website, and i've noticed something: they use a transformer, and i suppose it's a 1:1 one to make a galvanic insulation (i don't know if that's the right word in english..).. It allows you to put both sides of the driver to the ground when you switch the sustainer off, without making a ground loop with the input (that should be grounded too).. And it could help reversing the driver's polarity (for the Harmonic mode). Am I right?

I'm about to build my own sustainer, i've got all the parts and i'm ready to experiment...

But i've got one question: On the guitar that i'm projecting to build, i've got a P90 soapbar in neck position, and i wonder which one should be close to the neck, the driver or the pickup?

[col]

Wow, what did happen to that PCB? It's not good to solder under the snow...

I think he just got over excited when he finished it!