Extremist Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 A sustainer (specifically meaning a device that magnetically moves the strings longer) is something I want to put into my custom body. The problem is that the concept behind most of them (Fernandes) is to emulate the sound of a large amp. What I really want is something that will sustain the string vibration, perhaps two to three times as long as normal. I just want to be able to hit my high notes and have them not die out for perhaps ten seconds. I am not looking for the feedback form of sustain, I would want it to be clean - but not infinite and not out of control. I saw some information here about some custom ones. Is it possible and reasonable to make one that will do this? I read about one on the site but it seemed feedback based. What would be the parts involved, and would the fit into a one-two size slot or need additional pieces like a battery etc..? I need some direction on this, thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 psw's got a 13 page thread on this, and there are several others - try a search for "sustainer". There's enough there to get you up to speed on how existing systems work, and the disadvantages of doing it the way that it's been done so far. What would be the parts involved, and would the fit into a one-two size slot or need additional pieces like a battery etc..? Well, we've definitely decided it'll need some kind of power source - beyond that, I guess you'll have to learn along with the rest of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extremist Posted July 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Thanks lovekraft - I hated to ask without looking first, I usually don't, but here is such a massive amount of information here. I am taking notes on all I read and I'll get back to you to make sure I understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren wilson Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Fernandes and Sustainiac sustainers can operate in "fundamental" mode, where they just sustain the notes indefinitely. It's the "harmonic" mode that generates overtones and sounds like amp feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extremist Posted July 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Fernandes and Sustainiac sustainers can operate in "fundamental" mode, where they just sustain the notes indefinitely. It's the "harmonic" mode that generates overtones and sounds like amp feedback. Hmm ok. I think someone mentioned something about it being able to "mimic the sound of a large amp" and what I had heard sounded similiar to feedback. I will end up putting a fernandes in, accept the problem is, I do not want the harmonic portion, and I also do not want the console replacement they run their chips through - so I really can't use it unless I had an electrician to remove all that crap. Anyone know if those are removable or do they smash them all in together to stop reverse-engineering? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 I was a little confused about your objections to the Fernandes, so I pulled mine out of storage, and gave it a listen. Darren's right, in fundamental mode, it simply sounds like your string swells slightly and then continues to sustain, kinda like a volume pedal on a steel guitar, but it never dies away. It does this without any interaction with the amp - I just did it without connecting the cord to the amp at all. The only objection I have to it is that it won't sustain chords - there is always a dominant note that wins out, and the others die away fairly quickly (although they do continue to sustain for longer than normal, they are quickly drowned out). After much discussion in psw's thread, we've about decided that it would take separate drivers for each string to eliminate that problem, and we're still not in complete agreement about using a single sensor or a hex sensor to source the drive signal. As you said, there is a massive amount of info there, but it's slowly winnowing down to a few workable ideas. If you don't need chordal sustain, the Fernandes, which I own, and the Sustaniac, which I've only played with briefly, should both do the job nicely, and hey're both proven systems - sometimes it's a lot easier to use an existing product. I don't quite understand the "console replacement" problem - except for a pc board with the switches on it and a battery box, the wiring is stock - 3-way switch, 1 volume, 1 tone and a stereo jack wired to connect the battery ground. The driver is built into the neck pickup, and connects to the board through two separate wires that parallel the pickup cable - that's the only thing I can think of that you'd need to reverse-engineer. I'll try taking it apart to see if there are any hidden surprises on the board when I get time, but it looks pretty straight-forward. HTH - be sure to keep an eye on psw's thread- he's subject to come up with something new at any moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren wilson Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Hmm ok. I think someone mentioned something about it being able to "mimic the sound of a large amp" and what I had heard sounded similiar to feedback. I will end up putting a fernandes in, accept the problem is, I do not want the harmonic portion, and I also do not want the console replacement they run their chips through - so I really can't use it unless I had an electrician to remove all that crap. Anyone know if those are removable or do they smash them all in together to stop reverse-engineering? I assume by "console replacement" you're talking about the circuit board and all the controls that are attached to it. The circuit board is the amplifier that makes the whole thing work, so you're kind of stuck with that part of it. The pickups, knobs and switches can all be changed out or replaced with your existing parts if you are somewhat experienced with guitar electronics. If you don't want to have to rout for the huge Fernandes circuit board, put in a Sustainiac Stealth or Stealth Plus sustainer. Their circuit board is significantly smaller, and they will provide you with detailed installation instructions that match your exact setup. If you don't want the harmonic or mix modes, just hard-wire it in fundamental mode (or wire the fundamental/harmonic/mix switch into the circuit and just tuck it inside the control cavity in case you change your mind later). I don't know why people go to such pains to rout huge control cavities for the Fernandes unit, or try to reverse-engineer it to put different pickups in, etc. when the Sustainiac is, in my opinion, a superior product from a small company with better customer service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveq Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 I don't know why people go to such pains to rout huge control cavities for the Fernandes unit, or try to reverse-engineer it to put different pickups in, etc. when the Sustainiac is, in my opinion, a superior product from a small company with better customer service. I've been using a Model C Sustainiac for several months now and absolutely love it. I don't mind the cables but if that's something that is holding you back from buying that type (the model C acoustic sustainer) - you can build the cable into the neck. I talked with Sustainiac (Maniac Music) and they have had others do it in the past and they do sell the cables separately. The sustain is acheived by physical vibration of the neck instead of the usual magnetic push/pull. The model C comes with a controller unit (floor pedal) that allows adjustment of the string drive, gain, and harmonic gain. I normally leave the harmonic gain low and the others at a mid-level. The guitar sustains as long as I want it to. You still will have the issue of chords fading into a single note but as far as I know, that's the limit of the technology available today. It's worth the money in my opinion. It brings the guitar to life in a way that is hard to describe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren wilson Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Ah, yeah... the original Sustainiac. I hear those are pretty wild to play. I'd love to try one myself. Even using an eBow or a magnetic sustainer brings the strings alive... it's weird to feel them vibrating on their own. When i want loads of sustain and some crazy overtones, the old "touching the headstock to the speaker cabinet" trick works really well... i imagine that's what it's like with the Sustainiac Model C on there, only way more intense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extremist Posted July 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 The sustainiac does look better indeed. I think it was the poor website that initially threw me off. So, another major "issue" I've had is that, because of the magnetic driver, you must function the sustainer with the BRIDGE pickup. My problem is that I wish to be able to function it whenever I want. The way to solve this is to have a bridge pickup that will meet my needs for both distortion and acoustic sounds. You know what I mean? I'd like not to have to use the sustainer only when the sound from the bridge is otherwise what I want. Currently I have two hums and a single -not that I need this to acheive my sound. Does anyone here use a bridge pickup that solely produces excellent sound for both high end soloing and a nice soft acoustic sound? Keep in mind if I also had a piezo, I suppose that'd function for my acousticness. Anyhow - here's another question. What if my bridge pickup wasn't so close to the bridge? Like, half-way between where the mid and bridge pickups usually are? What's the real distance needed to not cause an issue? I am building my model with the entire pickup area gut out - so I can arrange positioning of my pickups, drivers, midi, mic etc... however i wish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren wilson Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 The reason you can't use anything but the bridge pickup is because of magnetic cross-talk between the driver (in the neck position) and the bridge pickup, which is used for the source of the "feedback" signal that drives the sustainer. Moving the pickup closer could result in unwanted noise and/or a weaker sustain effect. I use a Seymour Duncan JB in the bridge position, and with series/parallel or coil splitting, it gives a much more transparent and "stringy" sound... that might do for your pseudo-acoustic sound. In regular series mode, it smokes. If you're putting a MIDI pickup on your guitar, if it's a Roland GK pickup, you could use a VG-88 to simulate acoustic sounds. I also find the acoustic simulator in my GT-6 can also be surprisingly convincing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extremist Posted July 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 darren - that is a good point, the midi could produce just as good an acoustic sound too. Hey you have a gt 6? I just got rid of a gt 5 because i was downsizing to a simple amp (line 6 spider) just to be simple for now...and I am focusing on the guitar itself. Mine rocked! perhaps the midi would be fine, I'm loving the stuff that i hear from Vai on the roland...only till recently did i even know it was midi and not just awesome processing. So darren - i saw on the sustainias page they use a blocker piece that goes at the null point of the driver to the bridge pickup allowing a higher amount of driver power without creating cross talk even on a single coil. Likewise, if the power on the driver wasn't needed to be too high, wouldn't this allow the pickup to be moved closer too? This isn't to big of an issue, just curious. Also, you mentioned series and parallell - i recall what they mean in electronic circuitry from physics, however I am not familiar of there application in guitar circuitry - can you prep me on the role they play here? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
litchfield Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 I like the duncan distortion and JB, and both would work with the sustainer or sustainiac. I just wish I could put a chrome cover on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren wilson Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Hey you have a gt 6? I just got rid of a gt 5 because i was downsizing to a simple amp (line 6 spider) just to be simple for now...and I am focusing on the guitar itself. Mine rocked! Yeah, i've got a GT-6 and i love it. All of my sounds are in it. I just run into a power amp and i'm good to go. So darren - i saw on the sustainias page they use a blocker piece that goes at the null point of the driver to the bridge pickup allowing a higher amount of driver power without creating cross talk even on a single coil. Likewise, if the power on the driver wasn't needed to be too high, wouldn't this allow the pickup to be moved closer too? This isn't to big of an issue, just curious. Sustainiac has been continually improving their design over the last decade or so, whereas Fernandes is still using an older design. One of their improvements is a better driver that focuses the magnetic field better, so you can now use a single coil bridge pickup with the magnetic sustainer. Whether you can move a humbucker closer, i don't know. You should email them and ask. They're very good about supporting their product. Also, you mentioned series and parallell - i recall what they mean in electronic circuitry from physics, however I am not familiar of there application in guitar circuitry - can you prep me on the role they play here? thanks A normal humbucking pickup has the two coils wired electrically in series. Switching them to parallel orientation keeps them hum-cancelling, but gives the pickup a weaker, more "stringy" sound that i find quite useful. It sounds about halfway between a humbucker and a single coil to me. I know from experience that the Duncan '59 and JB both sound amazing in parallel mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 G'day Guys I'm amazed at how many people want a sustainer! Especially since you hardly ever here it on the radio or talked about by the Guitar Gods! OK so here's where I fit in. I am actively working on the ultimate sustainer driver. It is very much in development phase but if you check out the extended thread you can see the progress as it happened. Basically I was able to get working prototypes of half the present size of sustainers. At one point I was able to make a leap from conventional driving means to a new way. This was the x series and it's workings remain secret. Basically it enabled me to make miniture drivers. At present I'm waiting on components to make a micro driver, about 3mm high by 3mm wide. I am working in collaboration with Lovekraft on suitable driving means and once the driver is sorted, we should see some more rapid progress (or at least alot of debate!) again This is the aim of "The Project": > A miniature design to fit seamlessly to the instrument and playing style > No restrictions on pickup type, selection or playing techniques > Little or no modification to the instrument > Unique new natural effects > Low battery consumption, preferably rechargeable I realize that this is a tall order but I believe it can be done and from my work so far, it looks very promising. Perhaps one day it will be the exception not to have one fitted. We are seeing a move towards piezo pickups as standard for acoustic sounds so it may not be so far fetched! So there's my place in this. Don't let it stop you from exploring current systems as it's quite a way off yet see ya psw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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