sirspens

5 hours ago, a2k said:

Your high action issue caused me quite a bit of lost sleep over the weekend. I (gulp) didn't do a test string on my bass before finishing and because it's a neck through, there's no shimming. Hopefully the truss rod does it's job. 

Yeah. It worried me quite a bit, and I had some room to play.

But, even with a neck-through, you still have the bridge to play with, as well. It might take some creative thinking, but you can play around with it to get your strings where they need to be.

I'm looking up the Watco oil right now...

I decided to spend more time playing the guitar before taking it apart. It is very nice. When you hit an open chord on this thing, the entire body resonates. Quite nice.

Also, I wanted to update the specs on this thing, since they have changed over the build. And, you know, be self-indulgent documenting the state of the guitar at this point.

Body: 1 piece mahogany
Neck: One I had laying around. Maple neck. Bolt on. 
Fretboard: Rosewood
Scale: 25.5"
Bridge: Top-loading Hardtail. I will never use another top-loading bridge. Stringing this thing was a bitch.
Tuners: Gotoh
Single Pickup: TV Jones Power'tron Plus
Electronics: 1 volume pot with Chrome knob. I'm considering switching out the knob for a push/pull so I can coil-tap the pickup. Side jack.
Strap Buttons: Grover Quick Release Strap Locks

That top-right ferrule, I can't get the screw in any further, and it isn't for lack of depth of the pilot hole. It is PLENTY deep. I'm still working on that one.

I have left plenty of room in the control cavity if I ever want to come back and add a tone knob. Just in case.

I may end up raising the action a bit more. I am surprised how much difference the neck shim made. I think I also need to get longer screws for the pickup, as it probably needs to be raised just under 1/4". You know, if this is going to be a punk rock guitar.

I originally was going to use this random scrap acrylic for the control cavity cover, but now I plan on using the same material as the pickguard.

The guitar is a bit neck-heavy. Which is to be expected with a small bodied guitar.

So... work to be done before finishing.... I need to get this area filled....

I'm going to round out this corner...

That's the state of the guitar right now. Just a bit of clean-up work to do before starting on finishing.

And here's the plan for that....

The pickguard is going to an 1/8" piece of translucent acrylic, which will also be used for the control cavity cover as well. The finish will be a light cream, used for the headstock, too.

I'm not sure about the finish for the back of the neck. I don't like lacquered necks. Should I go with True Oil here? I want to keep the maple pretty light, and I think True Oil would make it quite a bit darker. Any suggestions?

As an aside: There is another body, identical to this one, which will be finish off very similarly, the two differences: Maple fretboard, GFS Retro'tron with the the same specs as this Power'tron. I am interested to see the difference between the $150 pickup and the $35 GFS pickup.

I tried C.

C took like 10 minutes.

C worked.

Action is set (might actually raise it a bit). Intonation is set. Neck is straight. Guitar plays beautifully.

....

Thank you very much, @Andyjr1515

I guess now I have to take it apart and get it ready for finishing.

Okay. Not a dud truss rod. I got the bow out of the neck.

It did not, however, fix my action problem. I mean, it did some. Like 20% of the distance has been closed.

I now have some decisions to make on how to address the problem. As has already been discussed...

(A) Lower the bridge by routing out the body a bit;
(B) Raise the neck with a shim;
(C) Angle the neck with a shim.

I am going to ponder this a bit. (C) is my least favorite option.

I'm gonna go measure some shit.

6 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

Ah, you kids don't get spam these days. Our minds were ruined by promises. 

Are you making fun of me making it out of a pill bottle? It works perfectly.

8 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

Man, did I EVER get spam mail about those. You should have consumer rights about distance selling if they sent the wrong size. 

I think you might be high?

7 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

Let me backtrack and see what type of rod you used....

Didn't. I cheated. I used a neck I had laying around that I bought when I was trying to figure out how necks are made.

1 minute ago, Andyjr1515 said:

how many 1/4 turns do you think you did before you stopped?

... 6?

Maybe it was just getting engaged. I mean, if I destroy this neck, I'm not going to be heartbroken, so I'll give it a go.

So it would seem that I have no clue what I am doing. Ugh.

First thing this morning I got my drafting straight-edge out to make sure about the bow in the neck, and indeed there was a wide gap at the middle frets when laid across the entire neck, both low and high side.

I have spent most of the morning and afternoon slowly adjusting the truss rod to bring the action on the neck down. Figuring this is a Fender style neck, clockwise to reduce forward bow. Quarter turn, wait 15 minutes or so, check it again. Until I got all the way to where it wouldn't turn anymore, and it doesn't seem to have changed anything.

... So I let it rest for about an hour. No difference.

Then I figure maybe I am wrong about the direction. So I slowly, with even longer breaks between my quarter turns, start going the other direction. Until I make it all the way to the other side. No difference.

So either I've lost my mind or this truss rod is not doing its job.

In good news, I got the string trees installed. They look good. I did a "temporary" wiring to hear the pickup, which sounds really good.

Does anybody use one of these?

I built it a while back so I could bypass any portion of the wiring to isolate problems.

4 hours ago, Prostheta said:

The sparse nature of the Jr. style body configuration might clash with its minimalism...

Didn't you already say you planned on doing something special with the pickguard? Jr-ish but customized? That could give you some room to bring the visual interest of the body up to meet the neck.

Personally, I love a good one-pickup design. If that is what you are feeling, don't abandon it for aesthetic reasons. While I am light-years from putting the same consideration of design into my guitars as you are doing here, that is why I ended up adding the pickguard to my weekend build project.

That's how I got from trying to pick out a color, to designing a pickguard...

Bottom line: Use your pickguard to help with the visual balance. That's my thought.

6 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

I suspect that when you straighten the neck, you will find that the action magically comes within adjustment limits.

No probs - been meaning to get down on paper the 'how I do a first set up' for ages 

Yeah. It's a good list. Especially considering setting up a guitar and setting up a self-built guitar are slightly different animals. I plan on using your list.

Oh, also, @Andyjr1515.... Thanks. I won't move the bridge yet. I already planned on getting the guitar set-up before making any moves like that. But thank you very much for the education there. You too, @2.5itim!

@Andyjr1515, @Prostheta, @2.5itim....

First, thank you very much for your encouragement and advice.

Second, you are WAY over reacting! haha. I don't want to step on any toes here, but that is my job.

While this is my first guitar build, I have set up a few guitars in my day. If you go back to my original post last night (from my perspective for you Old Worlders), you will see that I test the neck bow by fretting the low E at the first and 17th fret, and found a HUGE amount of relief. I even had a picture of it.

It's a bit fuzzy. Taking that picture actually took quite a bit of planning. I'm fretting that string with my hands....

While it is certainly possible that the neck may need to be raised a bit with a shim (it does sit a tad lower than I had planned on), the vast majority of the problem currently is that there is a huge amount of bow in the neck. So much so that it is obvious when you are holding the guitar.

Before strings were added, you could run a line from the nut to the saddle and it was pretty straight and evenly spaced from the fretboard. Now, with the full tension on the neck, it just needs to be adjusted.

What is that Coors can sitting on? I feel like it is defying gravity!

I just sat down with my Gibson SG to do a few comparisons. It's intonation is dead on (of course, because I set it up that way). But what was surprising, and what I had never measured before, was each note going up the scale. They were WAY off. I mean, it plays beautifully. But going up the low E, from one fret position to another, they would be off by +/-1 to 1.5 Hz. All over the place. Wow! And you'd never guess that just sitting down and playing it.

I also checked the neck angle in comparison to the center of the bridge. Not dead on.

I'm trying to get a feel for necessary precision, here.

The more surprising find... my "cheapo" $140 SX Liquid (which I am not ashamed to say is my most played guitar since I bought it about 8 months ago) is far more accurate going up the scale than my SG! Most notes are right on, with only a slight variation on a few fret positions.

Oh, I forgot to mention. I assume because of the huge forward bow in the neck, and the inability to intonate it with that kind of bow, if the low E is tuned dead on, the F plays fairly sharp, by 1.1Hz...

Some progress...

I got the bridge installed, tuners installed (I was half way through stringing when I noticed, "shit, I'm doing this backwards" ugh), pickup installed, volume pot installed, The neck angle isn't a problem at all. 

Here's the problem... 

There's a huge gap between the fretboard and the strings. Even with the saddle all the way down...

So, I fretted the low E at the first and 17th fret, this picture is around the 8th or 10th fret. LOTS of space...

The neck, now that it has tension on it, has a good deal of forward bow. So, I am slowly adjusting the truss rod. I'll have to do that slowly over the day tomorrow.

Also, even though I measured this thing like a THOUSAND times, I may have to move the bridge forward a 1/4", because it is dead on 25.5" with the saddles moved all the way forward.

Even though the neck has a huge forward bow, so there is absolutely no way to properly intonate this thing, I did sit down with it and play it for a few minutes. I am a pretty big guy, 6'-4", and this is a pretty small guitar, only 12" tall, it is surprisingly comfortable to play.

So, onward and forward. I'll get the neck straight. Probably have to move the bridge forward. See if I can get this thing intonated correctly. Then I'll wire the thing up and see how it sounds.

I am asking part of this question in a current build. I am building two identical guitars, except one will have a $150 TV Jones pickup, and the other will have a $35 GFS pickup built to the same specs and going after the same sound. I am really curious to hear the difference between the two.

1 hour ago, ScottR said:

Yours looks like it is going to feel great. Carry on and get it finished and set up and see if that is not the case.

Thank you! And that is the plan. I am going to get it strung up and wired before the weekend. I want to hear and feel this thing.

And I am excited about moving into the finishing process. Still a lot to learn there. And I am really interested to see how this pickguard turns out (of all things).

8 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

i love the overall look, by the way.  Really nice design.

Thank you very much!

I assume by CF you are referring to carbon fiber?

I'll head in that direction, then.

Thank you very much for sharing your experience!

2 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

That you are able to examine and quantify these errors deserves applause. In reality, it won't matter. I think it's good to know that room for adjustment exists in there, and just to shift the neck into place during final assembly. Fenders are easy to do this to. Loosen the screws a bit and force the neck one way or the other. It's getting to the point of hair splitting I think. I'd find something bigger to worry about. 

Good. I'm moving on, then. I'm going to finish getting my bridge and volume knob located. I guess I should do a test setup, string it up and wire it in before moving on to finish.

I can probably get that done before the end of the week, then move on to sanding this weekend.

So, this evening I took an attempt at bolting on the neck. I drew my center line down the back of the guitar, center-lined the back of the neck. Clamped it down...

The neck went on really level. Even though in these pictures it looks a bit off, it measures completely flat, what you are seeing is just a bit of gap, because, you know, that is the problem I have been having...

So then I got out the ole laser level to see how things lined up...

So, when the laser is straight down the center line, it hits just a bit off center of the neck.

If you line it up so that it hits the middle of the nut, you can see it is a bit off. I measured it. 0.195degrees off. 0.0465" off at the neck joint.

S0, even though I tried to align it as best I could, and used my drill press to make sure the holes drilled into the neck were as straight and dead on as possible, All the gap went to the "top" side....

The guitar looks good, though....

So, of course, here is my question: Is that enough to be worried about? 0.195 degrees? Do I cant the bridge to align with the neck? Do I keep the bridge where it was going to go? If you run a string from either E string, it is about 0.6mm off from where you want it to be in the "vertical" direction.

I just have no clue what the margin of error is for doing this. I'd obviously love to nail it perfectly, but I'm not sure if that is reality.

29 minutes ago, ScottR said:

In general, after I've sprayed all the coats of lacquer I'm going to, let it cure for 3 weeks and leveled and polished I've got a layer of lacquer roughly 1mm +/- 25% thick.

I understand there is no way to say definitively, since spray applying isn't exact, but thank you very much for the rough estimate!

If that is the case, and I finish out the neck relief and finish the neck, it is actually going to be a tight fit. 1mm = 0.04", and I am off by less than that on each side, according to my feeler gauge measurements.

I was recently reading about Rickenbacker 12 strings, and read that their necks have 2 truss rods. I can't find a lot on the web about special construction requirements for 12 string guitars. I understand there are more strings, but is a second truss rod really necessary?

Also, here's a question... After one puts on 5 or 6 coats of lacquer to finish off the body (and the neck), how much does that add to the thickness?

I guess I can run a test if nobody has ever tried to quantify this before.