Guitar prices?

[westhemann]

i agree with everything you said in your last post.i just believe that,if after you spend years learning how to play properly ,you still find playing the guitar to be the most consistently rewarding thing you have ever done,then you deserve the guitar of your dreams.and if that guitar is a custom $3700 jackson,then so be it.you spend $20,000 or more on cars to get you to work,which most of us hate(except for those of you lucky enough to love your jobs).so shouldn't you be able to buy the guitar you want without someone telling you the $400 guitar in the window of the guitar center across the street is the same thing and that you got ripped off.

i mean really,anyone can take paint and throw it on a canvas,but it is not the same as what michaelangelo did.just as a master luthier creates a guitar which has more craftsmanship than a guy who is trained to spit out guitars as fast as he can.i am willing to pay for that craftsmanship

and really,if people like me were not willing to pay for these guitars,then these luthiers would be out of work and all we would have would be the same mass produced stuff that everyone else has.

i was one of those kids without money and i can tell you that i loved my first crap guitar more than anything.but it was terribly hard to play.nothing like what is available now.kids without money will always be buying the cheap guitars and more power to them.but i love the high end guitars and dream about the day when all i have are incredible guitars that are personalized for me.some i will build and some i will buy.

but anyway i love a friendly debate but the question was what do you get for the extra money for the high end guitar.and the better materials and craftsmanship are what you get.if you don't want to pay for it then that's cool but the cheaper ones just aren't the same.if they were they wouldn't be cheaper.

[GEdwardJones]

I think that after a point you're not paying for quality, you're paying for perceived prestiege. Maybe it's worth it to some people. To me, I'd rather have a fun guitar that I'm not afraid to play. To each his own. I love strats, you don't. I wouldn't spend $3700 for a guitar, you would. I'm not, nor have I ever said that there's not a difference between a $400 and a $1000 guitar (you can look back to my first post where I said the components are usually lower quality). But when I first started playing guitar I knew a lot of people who turned their noses up at guitars made in Japan (I still know a couple), that wasn't THAT long ago. To see the people who swear by Japan turn their noses up at Korea strikes me as humorous to the extreme.

In the end, play what you want. We live in a great time for guitars. Seriously, think about a time where you could get more for less than right now. Everybody wins.

[westhemann]

it's not where it is made.it is how it is made.i don't care if it is made in afghanistan as long is it is done by a well trained luthier with good components and without someone ready to fire him if he doesn't work fast enough.don't think it doesn't happen.they don't have the labor laws we do.and there was a time when japanese guitars were crap.not any more.same thing will happen with korea and when it does the prices for korean made guitars will go up.that is the way a free market system works.

i am not a bigot against korea or anywhere else,rather i am a bigot against inferior quality.but buy what you want.they will make more.and as long as people keep buying the cheapest available product,they will keep on bringing the quality down to make them cheaper.

i mean really.abolone inlays for one are worth extra.just as a diamond is worth more than a cubic zirconia.

but really i don't turn my nose up at korean guitars.i just know that when i buy a $400 korean kelly,that it is not the same guitar as the u.s.a. made kelly.the only similarity is the shape and the name on the headstock.and it is not that it is made in the u.s.a. that just happens to be where they make their best guitars.

and you are right about living in a great time for guitars.but i am afraid that alot of people think that just because it says jackson or esp it is good quality.that is not the case.but quality vs price(i.e. value)has definately increased the last few years.i have always believed that.

i draw the line at $10,000 guitars.unless it is coated with diamonds then the price is excessive.but $4000?i don't have a problem with that.

[Alchool]

I think that paying $3700 for a KE2 (it's not custom made, but it's still made in U.S.A.) is wasting your money. You can have one for less than 1500$.

Talking of low end guitars, I'm a kid without $$$ so I bought a Yamaha Pacifica 112 for $200. It's made in Taiwan. Now we are together since 4 years. The only thing that I don't like are the single coils. And the tremolo is "rusted in peace". But as long as the humbucker rocks and she plays, and as long as I'm not going to play as a pro, she works just fine for me. If in the future I'm going to play as a pro, I would consider to buy a high end guitar, so even if I had money now, I'll just save them for other things.

[GEdwardJones]

Given the same level of equipment a Korean guitar can exist that matches Japanese and American guitars in every way (as can be seen in various LTD Delux models). That being said, yes, a $400 can have a body and neck which are constructed in a way that matches the build quality of a guitar that costs WAY more. In a blind test most people couldn't tell a $500 from a $1000 guitar, a lot might even PREFER the cheaper one.

Sure you're going to pay for gold hardware or abalone inlays, but let's not confuse decorations for quality. A lot of things go into making a guitar more expensive. In the 80s a LOT of people bought Japanese Squires, which were cheaper (but higher quality) than American Fenders. The Fender cost more money partially because it said "Fender" even though the quality of workmanship was lower.

My point, I guess if I stillhave one after all this time, is that highly paid American luthiers can produce utter shite and less highly paid Asian luthiers can create really good stuff. Don't get caught up in labels, don't get sucked in by the pretty (I think it was Lisa Sharken who said if you see two guitars that are the same price, always buy the less flashy of the two because less money was spent on flash and more on quality), test drive everything before you buy it and be happy with your purchase.

[PaulNeeds]

Interesting thread.

My favourite stage guitar is a Chinese Squire strat. Pretty much everything is changed on it, but the neck and the body remain. I ADORE the neck on this guitar. It was bought as a cheap spare because my USA Standard Tele's neck broke in the joint while in the case, and I had to carry on gigging. "Goldie" as she's called will probably be with me for the rest of my life.

I've also a Mex Tele - my girlfriend got the neck and body from n.aalox on EBay for me as an early birthday pressie. All the USA Standard fittings have moved to it, and I tell you something, once I set the thing up to play as I like, it's really very nice indeed. I can't see anything in the finish or construction that I'd bitch about, and it sounds SOOOOO Tele - moreso than the USA with it's alder body, etc.

Yes, I love really expensive guitars, but as a low-end pro I need the function more than the abalone. With these instruments, I can afford to have more guitars - rather than just one hyper expensive instrument.

But having said that, when I get that record deal (hahahaha) or win the lottery, I want a custom instrument - and have a luthier on here in mind. I'd commission one from him now if I had the beer tokens.

[westhemann]

i guess in reality i am speaking more of the customs and less of the mass produced psuedo-customs.my point is just that if noone were willing to pay the bucks for a truly custom instrument,then all you would have is mass produced,boring,one size fits all guitars.but i also have a problem with this

read it and tell me that doesn't bother you.

[GEdwardJones]

Well NewsMax in general bothers me and I find it incredibly ironic that they are decrying the free market in action which, of course, goes against everything they stand for. Anyway...

China is what Korea was 5 - 10 years ago. While I think it's not cool that people are working 12 - 15 hours a day for a quarter an hour it's a double edged sword. They could work for a quarter an hour or they can *NOT WORK*. No one is at a point where they'll pay more $$$ for Chinese goods because the quality is, admittedly, iffy, but this will (hopefully) change. It bugs me that a good amount of Chinese goods are made by UNPAID prisoners who are, in many cases, locked up for political crimes.

Bringing this back to guitars, tho. Apples to apples, is a guitar that is "hand made" in Korea (and with the advent of CNC "hand made" is meaning less and less) comperable to a similarly spec'd guitar "hand made" in Japan or the US? I say, yes.

[westhemann]

well you present a good argument and i respect that you stick to your ideals.

however we were talking about a $400 ke3 vs a $3700(retail) ke2.of course as has been said it is readily available at $1500 to $2000.and is quartersawn maple,abolone inlays,premium hardware,fine attention to detail,etc... worth the extra $1100 to $1600 ?i still believe it is.otherwise people like the businesses on this forum and shops like erlewine guitars would be out of business.

and i still don't believe that just because the korean deluxe models have a better looking top and a finer finish than the other korean models that they are on par with the fine instruments that jackson u.s.a. and esp japan create.how does the quality compare where it is out of sight?control cavity,truss rod routing,etc...?i don't know the answer to that.

these things will possibly change in the future.korea may get better labor laws and a minimum wage.the quality of their guitars will continue to improve.but i stand by my belief that as soon as they do these things the price on those instruments will go up equal to the quality.and then indonesia will be making the cheap guitars and we will be discussing the quality of korea vs indonesia.

i think the wages and labor laws are shameful in these places though,and that is not free market.that is creating an unlevel playing field through the gross misfortune of others.i see it every day right here in texas.the construction companies pay an illegal mexican worker 1/2 of an american's wages for twice the work,and then cry to the government that they need to do this to stay competitive.i am not exagerating and you would not enjoy seeing how these people are treated.and that is nothing compared to what happens in other countries.want a free market?you can only have it with countries that have similar labor laws.otherwise you make it impossible for our businesses to compete without cheating.something has to give.how much of your way of life are you willing to give up to compete with countries who pay 25 cents an hour?

but maybe we should just agree to disagree for now.i have the feeling that soon enough we will all see the problems these poor wages in other countries create in our own.

but we were just talking about guitars ,right?

[westhemann]

by the way gedward i admire your debating skills.most people have a hard time presenting a case without resorting to slams and insults.i bow to you.

i much enjoyed our discussion.

[GEdwardJones]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back at the beginning of this thread you stated that one of the main reasons for the inequality of was due to the slave labor like wages paid to uneducated non-luthiers to produce crap guitars. My point was then and is now that there are many (probably by their standards) well paid luthiers in Korea putting out guitars which have similar build quality. Let's not get caught up in bells and whistles. If you want to add abalone or gold hardware or a fingerboard made out of solid, close grained unobtaniun wood then you're going to pay more money, but these things don't really have anything to do with the quality of the guitar. PRS 10 tops are chosen because (Kevan, please memorize this) they are the top 10%, *AESTHETICALLY*, of all PRS tops. Not because they sound better, not because they're better wood, because the look pretty. You'll pay out the nose for a 10 top, but you didn't really get a higher QUALITY guitar, you got a better LOOKING guitar.

If you're getting any better quality out of a custom shop instrument you're getting it because, hopefully, part of that extra cost is going to tighter QC. But, you're probably paying more because you're getting EXACTLY the insturment that YOU want (economies of scale being what they are, my theoretical mahogany Ibanez RG with a neck like a 59 LP, a Gold Top finish, Abalone binding ande EMGs will probably cost more than an RG550 for the same reason a gallon of milk costs less than two half gallons). The actual QUALITY might not be any higher than one that comes off an assembly line (and, honestly, even the cheapest guitars are coming with really high build quality these days. At some point the quality just doesn't get any better).

Fact is there are INCREDIBLE Chinese guitars and there are utter crap USA custom guitars. That really can't be argued.

By the way, by definition a "Free Market" is a market where consumers have complete access to information regarding the goods/services that they are offered, using this information they decide a fair price for the goods/services. By definition a minimum wage sets a price floor which flies in the face of a free market. In a free market if all the employers decide that someone picking apples is worth $.10 an hour then the average salary for picking apples will be $.10 an hour, period. If it has been decided that the fair price for Chinese guitar makers is $.25/hr then the free market says that the average Chinese guitar maker will make $.25/hr. A minimum wage sets an artificial price for these services, that is not a free market concept. The concept of a "living wage" is not a free market concept. The free market doesn't care if you can live off what I'm paying you, the free market only cares that I'm getting the best goods for my money (the corollary is also that in a free market no one would work for less than it costs them to survive and some products would simply cease to be produced because of this). There is no such thing as a true free market. This is not a bad thing (it's not always a good thing, either).

Thanks for the complement on my debating skills. Trust me, if I thought you were stupid I would have been a lot more insulting. I tend to debate at the level of my opponent

[westhemann]

touche!

there is nothing incorrect in what you say.i am arguing in a general manner rather than specific.meaning that generally the cheap korean guitars are not of the same quality as their expensive japanese and american counterparts.of course there are exceptions,as there always are.

i do realize that abolone and binding have nothing to do with the quality of the instrument.as you say they are merely for show.the only reason i used them as examples is because the opening question of this topic mentioned these things as upgrades which i believe are worth more money.a guitar is so much more to me than just a tool.it is a form of expression and the way it looks makes a statement just as the way you play it does.aesthetic upgrades are much apreciated by me and i think they are worth extra even though they do not contribute to the sound.even a plain simple guitar such as what tommy victor plays says something.to me it says that the music is the only thing that is important to him,that the guitar is a tool and the way that it looks is irrelevant as long as it plays well.and i respect that.

but i love the extra bells and whistles.

and i am glad you don't think i am stupid

but i still believe the qc is poor on the low end instruments.if i had a high def camera i would take a picture of my esp f 100's neck pocket and you would see for yourself.but you are talking about the high end korean guitars and i am talking about the low end ones.i admit that the deluxe ltd models are nice.i really don't know if i would buy one though until they get their labor market up to date.it kind of goes against my principles.yes i do own some korean guitars but that was before i became aware of the way they treat their people.

it is hard for us to understand what these people are up against.they don't have the choice to not work.we all have to work but they don't have the job choices we do.and as long as everyone keeps buying their products they have no incentive to change.although i think our government is doingf the right thing by pressuring them to clean up their acts.

but maybe i am wrong.time will tell.but i think i have a pretty firm grasp of the situation.at least you take the time to be informed.many people do not.

[krazyderek]

lol.... u guys were the debating team losers in high school weren't ya?

i just think low end guitars should be taken out of the picture all together.... there should be like some kind of international luthier commite that sells certificates to make guitars, and ur shop or factory is inspected twice a year to make sure ur keeping everything up to standards, otherwise it's illegal to make and sell guitars on the market.

[GEdwardJones]

No, I just like to argue.

[westhemann]

on a side note you would love a local radio show host here in austin.all he ever does is talk about the wonderfulness of a free market society and how free market should rule.it is his holy grail.

[westhemann]

No, I just like to argue.

me too .but i disagree with you krazyderek.i hope you were joking.beginners always have to have available,affordable,decent guitars.

what you are talking about is regulation,which is very seldom a good thing.

[GEdwardJones]

on a side note you would love a local radio show host here in austin.all he ever does is talk about the wonderfulness of a free market society and how free market should rule.it is his holy grail.

I'd turn him off mad every day. People with a slavish devotion to "the free market" annoy me. Pure capitolism works as well as pure Marxist communism does, that's to say, it doesn't.

[westhemann]

yeah that's what i do.

but by the way the free market does care about a living wage because the same people who build the products have to be able to afford other products.otherwise the system fails.the only way it works without a living wage is if you sell the product to a totally different market.such as ours.but that still doesn't give them a good economy.it only makes the people in charge rich.

[westhemann]

there is another word for pure in that context.extreme.and extremism is also seldom a good thing.

[krazyderek]

i disagree with ur disagrement wes.... beginners shouldn't have shitty guitars to start out with... they should have a less spiffy high end guitars, like no binding, no spiffy inlays, just a good solid guitar to start off with...

and regulations, how could that be bad? i think it's a great idea, to keep quality products on the markets.... instead of hunting around for weeks for something good..

[GEdwardJones]

i disagree with ur disagrement wes.... beginners shouldn't have shitty guitars to start out with... they should have a less spiffy high end guitars, like no binding, no spiffy inlays, just a good solid guitar to start off with...

and regulations, how could that be bad? i think it's a great idea, to keep quality products on the markets.... instead of hunting around for weeks for something good..

That's fun. Until you realize that most beginners won't actually KEEP PLAYING guitar and their parents aren't terribly hot on the idea on spending a lot of money on something that's going to sit in Timmy's closet forever.

Inexspensive does NOT mean shitty.

[krazyderek]

well..... in a perfect world with nothing but quality instruments, the guitar (of high quality yet lacking certain cosmetic upgrades) could be resold thus the parents would make back most of they're money

[GEdwardJones]

well..... in a perfect world with nothing but quality instruments, the guitar (of high quality yet lacking certain cosmetic upgrades) could be resold thus the parents would make back most of they're money

When was the last time you made back *most* of your money from selling something?

[krazyderek]

a couple of times.... but my point is.... if the industry WAS regulated, and everyone knew that they were quality products you wouldn't have a problem getting a decent return on it...

[GEdwardJones]

a couple of times.... but my point is.... if the industry WAS regulated, and everyone knew that they were quality products you wouldn't have a problem getting a decent return on it...

My wife and I just bought a new car. In order to buy this new car we traded in her old car. Her old car was a Lexus, in immaculate condition. It was, by all accounts the very definition of a high quality, incredibly maintained, four year old car. New car value = $40K, trade in value = $13K.

With the possible exception of Harley-Davidson motorcycles no mass produced non-perishable good can be resold for "most of it's value" after any decent amount of use. It just doesn't happen.

Plus, a lot of people LIKE cheap guitars and many of those guitars have gone on to become collectors' pieces in their own rights. Think about your plan the next time you see someone with an old Danelectro/Silvertone or you hear The White Stripes or The Jon Spencer Blues Explosion.

And one more thing, if new guitars cost more money and they're all "high quality" so that used guitars cost almost exactly as much, how is someone of limited economic means going to buy a guitar? Seriously. If I can afford to spend $200 and even USED guitars cost $300, I'm just SOL, aren't I?