ansil Posted September 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 20watt of tubepower is very loud!! zhe loudnewss comes more from your box than from your amp when You use amps between 15and75 watt when the box goes to 100watt or so then all of them should be near the same in loudness. Are you trying to say that the speaker cabinet determines the acoustic output? Sorry, but thanks for playing! haaaaaaaaaaaa.. thats funny lk ps we got a shop fone now i jsut have to wire it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biohazard Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Ok so let me try to understand this, since amps aren't my area of knowledge by any means. A 25W tube amp would be way more louder than say a 100W SS amp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MzI Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 usually its 40 watts of tube power is equal to 100 watts of solid state power MzI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ansil Posted September 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 to qoute lovekraft "And just for the record, a 100 watt tube amp at the clipping point driving an 8 ohm speaker generates exactly the same amount of acoustic energy as a 100 watt solid state amp under the same conditions. The only reason tube amps sound any louder is because the distortion is not as objectionable, so you can push the amp further into clipping without the sound becoming unbearable. Now, try to play nice together." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otgordin Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Ansil, Heres a thought... my friend has a peavey head with a backlit logo. It glows green when the amp is set to clean and red in overdrive. Pretty bad@ass. My 2 cents. -Vadim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ansil Posted September 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Ansil, Heres a thought... my friend has a peavey head with a backlit logo. It glows green when the amp is set to clean and red in overdrive. Pretty bad@ass. My 2 cents. -Vadim hmm not a bad idea ithink that if i use a dual pot and maybe blood redpaint dipped in epxoy wiht a clear white super bright led and use the second part of the dual pot to control the brightness from the rectified tube heater powersuppply i could vary the Blood Control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan O' Zakk Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 to qoute lovekraft "And just for the record, a 100 watt tube amp at the clipping point driving an 8 ohm speaker generates exactly the same amount of acoustic energy as a 100 watt solid state amp under the same conditions. The only reason tube amps sound any louder is because the distortion is not as objectionable, so you can push the amp further into clipping without the sound becoming unbearable. Now, try to play nice together." Amen. A watt is a watt is a watt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slabbefusk Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 Meh i thinks its something with the harmonics from tubes...well there are several ways to measure watts and i know three: DIN, RMS and PMPO, PMPO and RMS are the "false" ones and DIN is the real watt. I have two 6l6GC in my amp and they do 30 watt per tube, but it saids on the back that its 100 W RMS. So 100 W RMS is about 60 W DIN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crafty Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 I think all this solid state wattage vs. tube wattage hubris is getting pretty thick in here. There are four basic kinds of amps. Class A, AB, B, and C. There's supposedly a new class D/T, digital amps, but we won't go there since we live in analog right now. Class A: The transistor amp conducts for the entire cycle of input signal. The conduction angle is 360 deg on the waveform. These amps run hot, as the transistors in the power amp are on all the time, but the upside is high sound quality. You will see only 15-35% efficiency of power here. Class B: In this amp, the positive and negative halves of the signal are dealt with by different parts of the circuit. The output devices continually switch. These amps run cooler, but the sound quality is not as pure. Class AB: These amps work by biasing the transistor amp at a non-zero DC current much smaller than the peak current of the signal source. The second transistor conducts during negative half cycle of waveform and the currents from the 2 transistors are combined at the load. A compromise between sound quality of Class A and efficiency of Class B. Most modern amp designs employ this method. Class C: Not suitable for audio amplification, mostly RF and industrial control. The key to all this hubris is that a Class A amp, like the Vox AC30, whether it's valve or transistor, is going to sound "louder" at lower wattage because the valves are being driven constantly at peak current. You'd have to drive a Class AB/B at full (100 watts) in order to get the same sound at 15 watts in Class A configuration. The sound is never going to be as smooth, though, because of the switching effect in the push-pull section. Okay, so why do transistor amps sound different? Physics. Transistor-based amps process a signal as clean as possible until they start to clip at high-voltages. Tube amps are always putting unclean signals and spurious voltages into the signal path. We call it warmth. But the tubes are also capable of handling higher output without clipping, therefore the "distortion" is always going to be "cleaner" with a tube amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirit Posted October 3, 2004 Report Share Posted October 3, 2004 usually its 40 watts of tube power is equal to 100 watts of solid state power MzI I was under the impression tube amps are 3 times louder (or given what's been typed above, "louder"), so your example of 40W tube would be about 120W SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truerussian558 Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 (edited) Amen. A watt is a watt is a watt. quoted for effect (to the person above me) to become the umpteenth person that says this. The only reason tube amps "sound" louder then a ss amp at the same wattage, is because tubes can be clipped more and still sound resonably clean (i.e. before we call it distortion), whereas clipped transistors sound horrible rather quickly, therefore we can't load the ss amp as much before it starts to sound bad, and therefore it appears to be not as "loud" as a comparable tube amp Edited October 4, 2004 by truerussian558 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Let's try this again, for the ones who didn't get it the first time - it doesn't matter what amplifier class is configured, or whether the output stage is MOSFET, vacuum tube or bipolar transistor, so long as the distortion levels are equivalent and the speaker efficiency is identical, there will be no difference in acoustic output level!! The same amount of power will do the same amount of work, period! A 28.28 volt peak to peak sine wave will always produce 50 watts rms (root mean square - the AC equivalent of DC power) in an 8 ohm load, and that 50 watts will always produce the same SPL from any given speaker, regardless of where the voltage comes from. As for measuring wattage, PMPO is a total farce, and is often referred to as ILS (If Lightning Strikes) watts. The rms wattage standard at a defined distortion level and load impedance will tell you how much power any amp will produce under those conditions. As distortion increases, so does power, and since tube amps distort more muscially than solid state amps, higher levels of distortion are acceptable, increasing the apparent loudness, but clean watts are clean watts, regardless of their source or the amplifier class. And while we're busting myths here, while the AC30 is biased extremely hot, it is still a Class AB1 amp - that is, at rated output, each output tube cuts off for a portion of the waveform. Don't take my word for it, get out an oscilloscope and check a 1KHz sine wave at the outputs of the power tubes at 30 watts, and you'll see it. We've got to stop believing all this marketing hype, before we become as lame as the high-end consumer audio crowd! OK, end of rant, you may now resume your scheduled programming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sepultura999 Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Can anyone send or post some links on amp building? I am a noob so a good beginners site would help Thanks. -Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ansil Posted October 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 ax84.com http://diystompboxes.com/pedals/ampmods.html this here is a bare bones aproach to moding amps and understanding them but for the real mother of them all TONE-LIZARD.COM also thanks to lK for showing me that site very groovy stuff there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crafty Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 The AC30 is really a Class AB amp? Hmmm. For some reason I always thought it was a Class A. I stand corrected, now that I look like a complete POS jerk. As for my original post, I screwed up some phrasing, as usual. When I said "the reason why tube amps sound louder", I should have said "the reason why Class A amps sound louder at lower volume levels", or something like that. There's no real good way to explain it, but you're just pushing the Class A harder at lower volume levels because the circuit is running "hot" for 360 degrees constant. There is no difference in actual acoustic volume put out for a given watt output. Class A will CONSUME more wattage than a Class AB/B, but the output wattage is not going to be any louder with a tube vs. transistor setup. I agree, PMPO is fiction. RMS is the only reliable constant way to rate wattage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ansil Posted October 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 I feel like killing myself by jumping on my own head........................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sepultura999 Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 Alright I know that building a guitar from scratch can be more expensive than buying one but what about amp building? Dumb question? prolly haha, but I am thinking of building my own tube amp and I'm just curious if I should step up to the plate to build one or buy one (one i'll buy will be between about 800-1000 canadian which is about 600-800 USD). Thanks for all the help. -Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slabbefusk Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 Ok, we know everything about watts now Now lets hear about the amp! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan O' Zakk Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 Alright I know that building a guitar from scratch can be more expensive than buying one but what about amp building? Dumb question? prolly haha, but I am thinking of building my own tube amp and I'm just curious if I should step up to the plate to build one or buy one (one i'll buy will be between about 800-1000 canadian which is about 600-800 USD). Thanks for all the help. -Jamie It's like anything else, really...you can build a Champ clone for a few hundred...or a Marshall clone for 9 or more...but you'll put a sick amount of time into a project that won't necessarily work terribly well, depending upon your talents...building amps involves melding MANY different skills, and the end product is, as always, the sum of the parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 ...I know that building a guitar from scratch can be more expensive than buying one but what about amp building? ...(one i'll buy will be between about 800-1000 canadian which is about 600-800 USD)... You probably can't build a mass-produced mid-priced amp for anywhere near what you can buy one for - just like building guitars, you don't start building amps to save money. OTOH, if you are clever (and lucky), you can probably build a sound-alike clone of those darling little boutique combos (M@tchlëss, B@d C@t, etc.) for substantially less than the real thing. What kind of amp are you looking for? It's unlikely that you'll be able to succesfully complete a high-gain, high-powered channel-switching design as your first build without a long, frustrating debug cycle, but something simple, like a Fender Tweed Twin or Bassman, or a Marshall JTM-45, might not be too much hassle. The bottom line, IMHO, if you need something reliable to gig with right now, buy an amp - if you've got reliable gear, but you're not thrilled with your tone and want to learn how to make a better sounding amp, start simple and build a few inexpensive projects to get your chops up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sepultura999 Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 right now i'm currently shopping for a tube amp - so far fender hot rod deluxe is in the lead but that could change once i try a peavey 5150, xxx, xxl or marshall atv275 - which in the end i guess from what you're saying may be cheaper to buy -Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ansil Posted October 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 5150 worst amp ever man. they took a perfectly good idea and screwed it all up. However i have heard a good one once and only once and that was this guy i used to party with he built his own guitars and rebuilt all his amps he was playing a line six [dont' get me started] cause he was doing covers but he let me play his amp and it sounded just like any great recording i have ever heard all the life and sustain and such. i was floored but then he said if he had his way he would just bring his rack gear in and use the amp as such but since they were limited on space and time for setup he just plugged in line six that he modded himself too.. that was funny.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sepultura999 Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 maybe the 5150 you tried had some faultyness in it lol or peavey just doesn't know how to make tube amps seriously looking at the specs it looks like a real killer amp - thats why i was thinking it may beat out the fender hot rod deluxe since it's pretty much the same specs except the 5150 has more 12AX7 tubes, and different speakers but then again I won't know for sure until I try. -Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan O' Zakk Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 5150 worst amp ever man. they took a perfectly good idea and screwed it all up. Two words: TIN EAR Might wanna se 'bout that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 First of all, that Marshall AVT is not a tube amp - it's a solid state amp with one tube in the preamp, and sounds like it. You might as well buy a Gorilla amp and a Matchless Hotbox. The Hot Rod Deluxe is a modified Deluxe Reverb with an extra gain stage added post-tonestack ala Randall Smith, while the 5150 is basically a JCM800-style preamp with gain stages added pre-EQ ala Mikey Soldano, so they sound very different, even at similar gain levels. I'm not a huge fan of either amp, but I have gotten some very nice clean and SRV-ish sounds from the HRD, and the 5150 does high-gain stuff fairly well provided you replace those rubbish Sheffield speakers (although it can easily be tweaked to sound as bad as any misajusted Dual Rectifier can). If you can swing the cash, Bogner, Engl, Soldano and Marshall all make much superior amps, but I can't afford any of 'em. I haven't spent a lot of time playing with either the XXX or the XXL, but my impression is overall favorable, and the Carvin Legacy has some nice tones readily available, but it's so freakin' loud that it's almost impossible to gig with, IMHO. In the end, you'll have to let your ear decide what's right for you - me, I'm still looking for that 1964 Supro Thunderbolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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