Dugz Ink Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 I've used various types of "wood glue" while making furniture, but was never impressed with the stuff. Then I apprenticed with an elderly gunsmith, and he introduced me to some resins that have incredible strength and longevity. We used Acra-Weld for the wooden parts that had to withstand hundreds of pounds of torque or woods with a high oil-content (like Purpleheart), and Acra-Glass for all of the other wooden parts. The bond is the closest thing I have ever seen to permanent. However, I've noticed in some of the threads that some of you guys are talking about something called "TiteBond"... a water based adhesive. Can you tell me more? Like why you would prefer it to a resin based adhesive? And, if it's better, where would I buy it? Thanks! D~s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluespresence Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 TiteBond is an instrument grade adhesive that is probably preferred by most of us because it is removeable. At some point in time you may need to take off that set neck, bridge or fretboard and repair or replace it. Here's the info from their web site: TiteBond Liquid Hide Glue Make sure you use the "Liquid Hide Glue" as it is the preferred instrument adhesive. It also makes a nice crackle effect when used as a base for finishing. See the web site for more info. I pick mine up at the local True Value Hardware. I'm sure it's available at the big chains also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Make sure you use the "Liquid Hide Glue" as it is the preferred instrument adhesive. it is not preffered by most of the builders on this site...most here use titebond original,as do I it creates a bond which is stronger than the wood...there is no need or use in being stronger than that. easy to clean up...sets strong,and allows an invisible glue join...which that epoxy you linked to(dugz ink) will not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Executioner606 Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 I usually use elmers wood glue or titebond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dugz Ink Posted September 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 and allows an invisible glue join...which that epoxy you linked to (dugz ink) will not... Now that is a big plus. With the Acra-Weld, I always have to add dye (usually black) so the line looks like an intentional part of the design. Thanks for the links and insights. D~s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Thanks for the links and insights. and thank you for posting an intelligent question,specific and to the point,and listening to the answers with an open mind it is quite refreshing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky1 Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 (edited) Edited September 19, 2004 by lucky1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 99% of the time, when someone mentions Titebond, they mean the bottle of yellow aliphatic resin glue that the company makes, NOT the liquid hide glue that the company also makes. And to narrow it down to luthier uses, they always mean Titebond ORIGINAL formula and NOT Titebond II, which I have heard many time, is not good for luthier uses. I'm pretty sure I have gotten " invisible" glue joints with aliphatic resin glue and epoxy. I tend to use Elmers brand yellow aliphatic glue, because it's the same as Titebond as far as I know, and it seems I can get a fresher bottle of that close to home at a store. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 1) Freshly-made hide glue is preferrable to the pre-made stuff, kinda like making your own (fresh) shellac from flakes as opposed to buying it already pre-made, much fresher, much more preferred. 2) The reason they had a picture of a violin on the front is because instruments in the violin family are MEANT to be taken apart on occasion to be tuned, rebraced, bla bla bla,, but guitars are not meant to ever be taken apart, so hide glue doesn't have much of a role to play in building guitars. 3) Titebond II is made for outdoor use, where contraction and expansion are always occuring, so the glue has to be FLEXABLE. Haha!! You know what that means? That means it NEVER REALLY DRIES! I don't want no steenkin' flexable glue! 4) I pretty much use Titebond original for almost everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluespresence Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Thanks for all of the info guys. I have been using the Liquid Hide for a couple of years and have had no troubles. I have used it on fretboard lifts, bridge lifts, joining bodies (2 piece bodies), neck repairs (where the neck was snapped), etc. It appears I have been quite lucky as I have yet to have a repair come back. I did once test it by bonding 2 pieces (a broken neck) and then breaking it several days later and the joint stayed intact while the new break occured elsewhere - meaning the glue join was stronger than the wood. As I said I must have an extremely long run of good luck....but I am not too old to change.....I'll be switching to the TiteBond Original as you guys mentioned. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Under normal conditions, hide glue holds as well as pretty much any other glue if it's nice and fresh and like that, so there's nothing 'inherantly' wrong with using it on guitars, ...as long as conditions remain nice and stable. AND...well, you can always take your guitars apart if you ever want to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluespresence Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Speaking of "nice and fresh" I do replace my glue every 6 months whether it is gone or not. I toss the old bottle and get a new one. I heard this years ago and have always done it. I used to replace it once a year but now do it every 6 months - I can afford it now - I couldn't afford to throw things out when I was younger. I think replacement was discussed here once also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 I don't even throw away the yellow wood glue when it starts drying up. I just don't use it for the same thing. I'll put some hot water in the bottle and it usually gets the dried glue workable again, then that glue is good for scrap jig-making , gluing cardboard, paper, or I guess I should say it's now a "household" glue. Also, I must say when I see many people show how they build guitars, I often see pics where it looks like they used way too much yellow wood glue. If these guys designed car wheels, they'd have 100 lug nuts instead of 4-5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 (edited) I usually use yellow carpenter's glue for all my gluing and clamping needs. I got 2 brands here, one is Elmer's "Probond" and the other is something called "Weldbond" (Frank T. Ross & Sons Ltd.). I suspect they all come out of the same vat. I use it more because its inexpensive compared to most other glues. Never used hide glue and I was always under the impression that its application revolved around acoustic guitar, violin, mandolin etc. building rather than gluing heavy pieces of wood like body wings. Seems like a lot of trouble to buy a glue pot and melt down crystals etc. when all you have to do is pick up a bottle of yellow glue and give it a squeeze. A friend of mine had some excitement when his glue pot caught fire one day so ya gotta be careful with stuff like that. Edited September 12, 2004 by Southpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassman Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 I used liquid hide glue on my very first bass... what a pain... I resanded all of the glue lines about once a month for asix months or so because they kept shifting... you could actually feel the glue line- the only pace i think I would I would use it for again is for gluing on a fretboard... it would be easier to remove later for a repair... however ai would never want to use a finish that builds up- i think the shifting hlue would crack and destroy anything besides a oil/poly finish. peace, Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dugz Ink Posted September 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 I'm in Nashville; 95° heat and 80% humidity in July. Summer heat will be a concern as I go to play gigs and guitar-pulls. And glue-fires wouldn't bother me as much as parts coming apart or shifting. (He he... FIRE.. he he... COOL!) So let me revisit the original question... but with some extra info. I would be using either 2 or 3 full size laminates... basically a face, a back, and maybe another wood sandwiched in the middle. What if I mixed black dye in with the adhesive; then I would have a crisp black "line" between each layer. If I did that, then the whole issue of using an "invisible" adhesive is mute, and I could use anything, right? Just trying to think my way through this before I stick expensive wood together. D~s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 (edited) What if I mixed black dye in with the adhesive; then I would have a crisp black "line" between each layer. If I did that, then the whole issue of using an "invisible" adhesive is mute, and I could use anything, right? You will have to "stick" with a few conventions, sorry, unintended bad pun there. And I would definitely do some experimenting before gluing expensive wood. You have to make sure the glue/dye combo will be compatible with each other. ie. Make sure the dye won't hinder the bonding properties of the glue and in turn, making sure the glue won't change the dye pigment. There might be an issue with mixing water based glues/dyes with "other" based glues/dyes. Just for the heck of it I decided to get off my butt and experiment. I just made blue glue! Mixed a squirt of yellow glue with some blue dye. Both water based but the color is a bunch of shades lighter now. I clamped a couple pieces of mahogany scrap together to see how it works out. If you don't want your black to turn grey I would suggest using a clear glue. But I see some potential in the concept. Maybe it can be used the other way by mixing the glue to the same color as the finish to help hide glue lines in the grain. Of course, your main concern is making sure your joints are as clean as possible and clamped evenly. Edited September 12, 2004 by Southpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 (edited) I often mix black powder dye with epoxy. it works great. If I wanted a nice crisp contrasting line between pieces of wood, I'd inlay a strip of something else. Your basic glue joint, should be so tight, that it shouldn't be a noticable line, except maybe a " hair line" Edited September 12, 2004 by soapbarstrat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky1 Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 (edited) Edited September 19, 2004 by lucky1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dugz Ink Posted September 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Well, I'm not familiar with the TiteBond (that's why I started this thread), but with the Acra-Weld you don't want to squeeze the joint too tight... leave 1/64th to 1/32nd of an inch for the absolute best bond. That's why tha stuff comes with a packet of powdered black dye or brown dye. And, no, the dye doesn't spread and soak into the wood. You just have a black line. But that blue line has me thinking. Hmmm... what about deep purple? I don't really like working with veneers; the edges tend to feather while I'm filing. Some people use a black plastic spacer (that has most of the non-visible palstic cut out) to provide the same look, but hate plastic. I think it's ugly and it creates weak spots. D~s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 I think the proper way to glue 2 pieces together is to rough sand the pieces with the grain, to create hundreds of tiny "channels" for the glue to sit in, then clamp together firmly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 with epoxy you want that gap you speak of...with wood glue you do not...and you don't rough sand either...you want as thin a layer of glue as possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 you want as thin a layer of glue as possible Which is why you have the surface rough enough that there are little channels and allowing loose wood fibers to inter-lock with each other. Epoxy has worked fine in thin layers on fret-boards for me. probably many others as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 sorry..wood glue has very little tensile strength...but the bond is extremely strong...i NEVER rough up my alphetic resin join...and if you do all you are doing is making your glue join weaker it is just the mechanics of the different types of glue...epoxy is different...you need a gap for epoxy to reach it's strength...if you squeeze it all out of your join...it is weaker than a wood glue join Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tirapop Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 In Fine Woodworking Magazine, they'd done a few tests of surface prep and bondline strength. They found that a freshly planed surface gave the best bond strength. When the surfaces are sanded, the outer layer of the wood is a fuzz of fibers. The glue bonds to the fuzz all right, but, bond strength is now limited to what it takes to shear those fuzz fibers, not the strength it takes to tear the surface fibers apart from a continuous piece of wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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