asm Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 never seen any hardware made out of copper, why is that? is it because its so expensive? wonder what it sounds like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heugel Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 Copper is very cheap, and soft, and has a tendency to tarnish quickly, and doesn't cure well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted September 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 copper is very cheep in sheet form, but its hard to cast it or pour it in ingots, so a 1.5"x12" square rod cost more than titanium. which led me to believe cost was the problem for milling it. what do you mean by it doesnt cure well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 Yup, very very soft when pure. It just isn't fit for any high stress job. That is why there is brass (copper and zinc mixture)...The zinc atoms alter the crystal microstructure creating stress tensors that in effect make the metal much harder and stronger - sorry, materials science is all coming back to me in a big wave. Fun stuff. Copper is very tough to machine because it is so soft. It can be hard to get a clean cut. Then again, if you are after the look of copper, there isn't much you can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevan Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 ...not to mention the conductivity issues. I know that Driskill is making their vintage trem blocks out of brass. It's got a cool 'tone' to it, but will suck a little bit of sustain (via string vibration absorption). Conversely, I saw a company making trem blocks out of titanium. While I think it's kinda gimicky, it is a nice strong metal. It'll help with adding some sustain, but will take away from that 'sweet tone' everyone is looking for. I guess if you're going into space, it'd be good to have a trem with a titanium block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky1 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 (edited) Edited September 19, 2004 by lucky1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevan Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 One mans tone is another mans Gorilla practice amp. Tone is in the fingers, and it's also in the ears. There's NO WAY to get a tone that EVERYONE likes. It's just how humans are built. And speaking of being built.... When I talk about "sustain sucking" materials and/or alloys, people need to remember that only Eric Johnson and computers can actually hear that difference. Some computers will have a tough time picking up between 16,000 fps and 15,200 fps (feet per second). That's the speed that sound travels thru cold rolled steel. If you raise the density of the material, the fps will increase. Examples: Titanium. A very dense material, EXTREMELY tough to machine (up there with iconel), but great with heat and strength per ounce. I'm not sure on the exact number, but I'll guess that titanium will get you about 24,000 fps. Move over to brass. It's much, much softer than steel, almost too easy to machine (you have to run it thru very slow to get exact tolerances), cheap and accessible, but not good heat or wear properties. Unless your name is Rusty Cooley, you don't have to worry about heat issues when it comes to guitar parts. Now, as for the aluminum....well, it's good for beer cans and engine blocks. :-) All joking aside, it's a very, very versatile material with pleny of decent uses, and comes in about 80 different kinds of alloys. I like working with the 6000-series and 7000-series alloys. Great strength properties, high machinability, high heat resistance, and available all over the place. The only problem is: cost. These tend to be more expensive than the 2000- thru 5000-series alloys (which are also good). An aluminum nut? Ummm...ok. Just remember it's going to wear faster than a steel or steel alloy nut. Just like a brass nut, but might last a few hundred more string changes/million notes. Aluminum also is not very 'slick', so I wouldn't recommend an aluminum nut on a single-locking trem setup (go graphite/teflon or some other kind of synthetic). I'm sure the double-bass that your buddy has came out with some cool tones. He surely dug on it. And that's enough. :-) Anyone remember the Rouge Alluminator? I thought that was a kickass design...until I played one. Yikes. Tone like an AM radio. The bottom line is: there is no 'holy grail' when it comes to metals for guitars. Steel has it's places, as does brass, as does aluminum and, if you want, even titanium. The hard part is finding the right combination to achieve the tone you're wanting to hear. It could be: steel trem plate, brass block, graphite saddles and brass nut. Or, brass trem plate, brass saddles, cast aluminum block, and a steel nut. Whatever combination you like is the best one. I'm sure Sparky has some specs we'd all enjoy. Sorry I didn't look all the material specs up (I'm kinda tired). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiefletcher Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Sorry to hijack the thread but this has me interested. I was thinking of using copper sheet to use as a top to my next project for the body! Does this mean that the pickups will get bad feedback? Or could they be insulated against it. I thought with thte way copper tends to green over time it could look kinda cool... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky1 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 (edited) Edited September 19, 2004 by lucky1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted September 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Sorry to hijack the thread but this has me interested. I was thinking of using copper sheet to use as a top to my next project for the body! Does this mean that the pickups will get bad feedback? Or could they be insulated against it. I thought with thte way copper tends to green over time it could look kinda cool... dont quote me on this, but i could have sworn somewhere i saw a guy that made custom pickguards and said it was ok to use any metal there because it was far enough away. id wait for a second opion though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren wilson Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Sorry to hijack the thread but this has me interested. I was thinking of using copper sheet to use as a top to my next project for the body! Does this mean that the pickups will get bad feedback? Or could they be insulated against it. I thought with thte way copper tends to green over time it could look kinda cool... You'd probably get good shielding as a result of using a copper top. (Heh... coppertop...) But if you're not going to finish it, i hope you like having green copper stains on your picking arm. I once tried copper picks, and wondered why my fingers turned green after playing for a few hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Unfortunately, it's copper's ability to turn -other-things green that's the short-term problem. Of course, you could always lacquer over the copper and body, but I'm not sure how well it'd stick. You see copper roofs turn green because they are rained on and left wet and rained on some more for a period of a few years before they start to seriously oxidize. On a guitar top, the best you could hope for is an "antiqued" brownish red color. Nice, but not the same. However, if you were to take your copper top and speed up the oxidation (i.e. soak it in water for a long time), you could take the already-oxidized sheet, sand back one side and attach that side to the wood; then lacquer over it. The lacquer would stick better, and you'd have it oxidized. On that note, if there's a church or mansion with a copper roof nearby that's reroofing, they could provide some oxidized copper. Or you could steal some off the roof in the middle of the night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorecki Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Or you could steal some off the roof in the middle of the night. Ohh that's a really good suggestion. Very interesting thread though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tirapop Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Yeah, you can cover a guitar in copper. http://www.girlbrand.com/turnall.gif http://www.girlbrand.com/turnhrnx.gif http://www.girlbrand.com/cop-fil.gif http://www.girlbrand.com/cop-fil2.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javacody Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 First off, when you are talking steel blocks for a vintage strat trem and aluminum Stop Bars for a vintage Les Paul tailpiece, you are comparing eggplants to watermelons. Lightweight aluminum is the best on a Les Paul for REPRODUCING vintage tone. If vintage Les Paul tone is your thang, then an aluminum tail piece is definitely for you. The differences are very noticable when replacing a regular LP tailpiece with a lightweight aluminum one. If you want an aluminum strat block, go to tailfeatherz.com. You won't get a vintage strat tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 I assume copper would actually sound better than steel to my ears. I find steel is very harsh and cold sounding and on top of that ,I read that it really alters the tone going through it ,but bounces a lot of vibration back, instead of letting it all pass through it, which is good for more sustain, but maximum sustain is not *the* priority for the guitar tones I really like. I remember in an old guitar mag from the 80's, Scott Henderson said something like " I replace the blocks on my floyds with aluminum blocks because it helps the sustain ". I was never sure what the hell he meant by that. I know I like the brass bridge and saddles on my one strat. I also understand from limited research that at least some brass contains lead, making it easier to work with. Then there's "bell brass" which I would assume is the best sounding brass, and I also assume it doesn't have lead in it, but I could be wrong. I've also seen the fancy bass bridges with the aluminum bridge plate. I certainly plan to try out an aluminum bridge plate on a strat, to see how that works out. I think of aluminum as a cross between steel and wood (maybe the wood would even be balsa ) Copper is probably going to sound quite close to brass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perhellion Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 I've seen home improvements shows with a guy that uses different chemical mixtures to make the oxidation occur faster (still takes a couple of weeks) and to make more color variation (kinda like if you could do a Vai dip/swirl finish, but with oxidation colors). He then waxed the surface to make it more stable, but I don't know how this would hold up to a picking arm. I think the wear would look cool, but your arm would get dirty. I'll see if I can find it. Found it -- http://www.diynet.com/diy/ww_chairs_stools...2276538,00.html -- and it really was more blue than green, don't know why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 I know I like the brass bridge and saddles on my one strat. I also understand from limited research that at least some brass contains lead, making it easier to work with. Then there's "bell brass" which I would assume is the best sounding brass, and I also assume it doesn't have lead in it, but I could be wrong. FWIW, Warwick basses use bell brass frets. Whether it has lead or not I'm not sure, but it seems for frets you would want them lead free because of hardness and constant string/hand contact. I've also heard it said that the tone is sweeter and less bright with brass frets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javacody Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Some folks consider brass to be a tone sink, whatever that means, but original TOM bridges had brass saddles. I never could understand the desire for a brass nut though. Do any of you guys remember the brass plates that were sold to attach to the back of your headstock? They were supposed to increase sustain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 I never could understand the desire for a brass nut though. Do any of you guys remember the brass plates that were sold to attach to the back of your headstock? A brass nut actually makes good sense to me, since it's close to being the same material as fret-wire (minus 18% nickel, or *maybe* minus 25% nickel if you have some real vintage frets) The brass headstock plate was/is (??) made by ' groove tubes' and called a " fat head" as far as I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tirapop Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 I assume copper would actually sound better than steel to my ears. I find steel is very harsh and cold sounding and on top of that ,I read that it really alters the tone going through it ,but bounces a lot of vibration back, instead of letting it all pass through it, which is good for more sustain, but maximum sustain is not *the* priority for the guitar tones I really like. Copper is probably going to sound quite close to brass. The brass plates for the headstock increase sustain by increasing the inertia of the guitar, like those metal bars they stick in some guitar bodies (like Reverend). The heavier the guitar, less energy is transferred to the guitar and more energy stays in the strings, where it dissipates more slowly. Don't know what copper would sound like. I think the relative tone of metals is mainly the difference in their damping coefficient and to a lesser degree the density. The damping coefficient is a measure of how much vibration energy is lost in the metal through heat. More mass lowers the natural frequency. Annealed copper is really ductile... soft and easy to bend. Copper work hardens easily, making it stiffer when you stretch it or bend it. The damping coefficient probably changes with work hardening. I think the biggest knocks against copper as a bridge material are its low strength and its ductility. Anything that has a concentrated load on it is going to creep: saddles, the part of the plate where height adjustment screws for the saddles rest. You don't want to put threads in copper. You probably would want to treat copper like it was wood... You know, if copper and ebony got in a fight... I think ebony might win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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