Hitone Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 (edited) I am having some major issues and I need some friendy advise. I am trying to use Orange Aniline Dye (from Reranch) on my guitar and it's not turning out well at all. I'm trying to get that Gretsch orange look. What I did • I sanded the guitar to 330 grit • Taped off the binding • Wood Filled • Shot a light laquer coat (instead of sanding sealer, advise from Martin Koch's book) • Mixed the orange/let it sit over night/strained it • Added a small amount of shellac (like the instructions said) • Sprayed the dye on the body What happened • The spray went on way to dark. I was trying to get it even. • Splotchy! There were spots of wood that wouldn't take the dye. • It was very uneven after dring overnight. What I did Next • I used a rag with denatured alcohol on it and tried to remove most of the dye. • I did a little sanding and used sanding sealer • After it dried I reapplied some stain. • It looks better, but still a little uneven • The hardwoods (Ash sides and Maple neck) still have areas that the dye wouldn't take. My issue now is that the dye is not even and there are still areas that won't take the dye. I'm not so concerned with the color being darker, I just want it even. Has this happen to anyone else? Should I sand it down and try again? Can I try to add laquer and spray it again? Thanks for any advice. Edited October 27, 2004 by Hitone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 I'm sorry that this happened to you, but it's being said for ever here, Ash is one of the hardest woods to dye! This is why usuly you just grain fill it then use a candy color to "do" for the dye. Like in guitarfrenzy strat. He rgain filled then painted with blue candy (transparent) finish. thne did the burst and then clear. The candy is added to the clear coat! this brings the color that you want, Re Ranch sells a transparent blue, you could have gotten the orange color tone from Stew Mac and mixed it with the color tone clear and shoot a few coates until the desired color depth, then just switch to clear to finish your coats. Sorry dude, should have done a bit more research before starting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclej Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 if you decide to sand it down and try again minwax makes a product to prep wood to accept stain easily. can't remember the exact name but it's something simple like wood prep. just brush it on, let it soak in, wipe it off and stain. that being said, i've only used it on cabinet and trim work. never a guitar but there's no reason that it shouldn't work. just another alternative. good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlGeeEater Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 if you decide to sand it down and try again minwax makes a product to prep wood to accept stain easily. can't remember the exact name but it's something simple like wood prep. just brush it on, let it soak in, wipe it off and stain. that being said, i've only used it on cabinet and trim work. never a guitar but there's no reason that it shouldn't work. just another alternative. good luck. Yea its water-based Pre-Stain...im looking at it right now. It does a good job of getting rid of streaks and blotches... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_here Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 (edited) I've got an Ash Body that I haven't started "coloring" or finishing yet. And have discussed options with several members here at PG (on differing threads). I got "warned" before doing anything.... I don't think "MikeB" would mind my posting this (his thread): Staining Woods, Ash Staining Maybe something here will help. In the meantime, I'm still "studying" (and deciding) how I want to do my project-body. So I'm subsrcibing to this thread for: Any Further Info. Thanx & Good Luck, HiTone! rick ><> Edited October 27, 2004 by rick_here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeB Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 cool, theres my thread... anyhow, the blotchy bits with no stain sinking in, i have a few theories. im by no means going to dispel any info you have gathered from any books, but i think that the thin laquer coat may have ruined it. This is only my feeling, i know mixed with the shellac it should form a pseudo varnish, but it has obviously been incompatible or something. my own method, which i explained to rick in a loong PM, involves using no grain fillers or laquer at the staining stage. i tried fillers etc... i got blotchy results and a VERY fake look! i must say that filler would be fine with the "candy coat" ideas... where you add the dye to poly or something. the wood isn't even soaking up the dye then! if you want info on the dying method i used in good detail (ish) im sure rick or i could paste some of the PM here. just ask. speak to me in PM if further interested. i havent tried using a candy coat yet. i havent tried the shellac, but i did try filler and sealer, and the results were poor. i may still have the test piece. If i find my camera batteries i will get a piccy for you. if i forget please bug me on PM until i do!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdog Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 I've been using aniline dyes for over 10 years.....I never quite warmed up to the concept of putting down any sort of basecoat, be it shellac, sealer or anything else, before the dye process was completed! Surely someone out there could find flaws in other methods, but aren't dyes supposed to be applied to wood?....afterall, you objective is to dye the wood, not the sealer...it is no wonder streaking takes place. Here is a pic of a tele I built a few years back using water based aniline dye..... http://www.fenderforum.com/userphotos/index.html?recid=2958 http://www.fenderforum.com/userphotos/index.html?recid=2973 No sealer was used until the dye job was completed.... If I were finishing this guitar, I'd sand it down and skip the lacquer or sealer until I've dyed the top. Use CA as a grain filler. Be sure to dampen the wood before you apply the dye, this will help prevent streaking. It is like nearly anything else, ask 5 guys how to do something, and you'll get 5 different answers. This process works for me, it may work for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 your problem lies solely in your choice of woods. Hard maple and ash don't dye well. Period. Use a candy color coat instead of dyes next time. Sand it down, and use a colored clear coat, such as the clear from Duplicolor Metalcast sets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_here Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 @MikeB- Yo/Hey, Man!....& maybe we all can work together here then. @tdog- 'Nice looking guitars you have there. The only thing is, Hitone's guitar---(and mine & MikeB's)---are Ash. So we're dealing with problems specifically related to Ash & "Ash-Coloring," so to speak. But Thanx! for yer input...(I'm learning something new all the time here at PG). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeB Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 just before i sleep i shall inject an idea of an ash thread for all people who are stuck/have info about ash. ill organise that pm i sent you rick, and hopefully expound upon parts which i left a little blank. i will probably open the thread tomorrow, if you want to open it, go right on ahead! i am dying of sleep deprevation so i bid thee farewell! Mike ps. candycoat is the easy way out, hehe! this will be about dying. dont give up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdog Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Ash is not a resinous or oily wood...it should not be a problem to dye. I have about 30 or 40 sq ft of dyed ash veneer and it is very evenly colored....It may have been dyed in a pressure vat though. I know furniture makers......myself included....who have dyed ash with no problems. Also, in my years as an artist(working with wood and metal), I've never heard of ash as being difficult to dye or stain. BTW....Thanks for the compliment on the tele....It screams! I hope you guys get it sorted out.....This sort of thing can be terribly frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank falbo Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Yeah I see nothing difficult about dyeing ash with water based anilines. Actually Maple and Ash have such a benign creamy natural color that they are the most true to the aniline dye color of all woods. There's another thread going on about how his mahogany turned his blue into dark greenish blue. I always dye and get my final color before any sealing. Water based anilines are very forgiving, too. So if you make a mistake you can easily repair it. The only "pre-treatment" I would use is to wet it to raise the grain. But you know, sometimes I just use the first couple coats of aniline to raise the grain. Then you get better penetration into the woods figuring and natural beauty. Some guys leave the endgrain wet (plain water) so it doesn't absorb dramatically more finish. I like that idea but I usually find a good, uniform fine sanding prior to staining accomplishes similar results while still looking like the stain took to the wood in a natural way. Sometimes I'll sand endgrain with finer paper like 600, and sand the rest with 320 or so. Surface preparation is crucial with water based anilines. Anyway, I'd strip it and start over, but I know that's heartbreaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...pic=11688&st=30 This thread seems to confirm my belief that ash doesn't dye well; at least, GuitarFrenzy, Setch, and the sources they consulted all thought that. Warmoth.com believes maple doesn't dye well. They say it right on their page that they cannot dye hard maple. Those are both sources I trust. It has nothing to do with the color of the wood; it's about whether or not they absorb dye! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdog Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Skibum......Birds Eye Maple is hard maple and it will respond well to dye, despite the Warmoth website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank falbo Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Yeah, I think (like politics and religion) that no other post or thread confirms any viewpoint, because we'll all have different results. I for one have never had trouble staining/dying maple (hard and soft) or Ash. Warmoth makes their own rules up. If it's easier, and they get less complaints by tinting clear over Maple, then that's their rule. But you can properly prepare most woods for water based aniline dyes. Alcohol based dyes work better on others. Maple is one of my favorite woods to dye. The other thread shows a brown ash tele and everyone assumes the grain was filled with a darker brown. That's probably not the case. Ash does it's own job of absorbing more stain into the deep pores. The creamy smooth sections absorb less. So if you do it right, you can have a guitar with very dark pores and whatever color depth you choose for the flat parts. Then you don't need black grain filler. Black grain filler on Ash (IMHO) looks terribly fake. It makes the guitar look like a photograph of wood, rather than real wood. It makes each pore look like paintings of wood grains. I would use water based aniline and sponge/sand several times to raise the grain. Then you can stain it, and sand it back several times and you'll have extremely dark pores. Or you can stain it black, sand back, then stain it your regular color. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 First off, if you want to dye the wood directly that's your choice, it's just not something that worked for me or other major manufactures. When I was experimenting with Ash wood and using water or alchol based dyes, I ran into a problem. I had read time and time again that the best results on Ash wood was to grain fill first, then shoot color tinted clear to get the transparent color evenly on it, but I refused to listen. I knew that there must be a way to dye the wood to make it look good, no matter what others had already told me, including ReRanch. But guess what, every time I dyed directly to the wood, it looked blotchy and was totally unacceptable to someone who actually cares how the finished product was gonna look. So, I emailed PRS, since they make a Swamp Ash Special guitar that looks awesome to see if they'd inform me of the procedure they used to make their guitars look so great. We'll guess what.. they told me basically the same thing I've been told from the beginning. Wash coat, grainfill, spray tinted clear, spray clear coat, and buff. We tried that, and it worked great, so we went with that method. Later I found out that's how Fender etc. does their ash guitars also. Again, I never said you had to use black grainfiller, clear is just fine. We actually just finished a bass not long ago using this same method. Good luck with whatever method you use. Frank show us a picture of your ash guitar so we can see how your method looks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank falbo Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Ha! Unfortunately the last time I did an Ash body was about 5 years ago, and I don't have any pics. I did two around that time. I have probably done about 10 Ash trans guitars in my day. The most recent one was a salmon color with a water based clear. I went heavy with the salmon and didn't use any black. So the grain was just darker salmon, almost burgundy-ish. I've done dark and bright green, and both were great. On both greens I used the same forest green for the "grain" coat, and then sanded it back. I only used black once and that was with a medium blue stain I made. I did one with a blue stain to color the grains, then I sanded it all the way back and made the guitar a deep red. That way the red wasn't orangish, but rather a little violet, and the grains were purplish. I know everyone shoots tinted clear over Ash because its easier. It's just not the only way to do it. I have a general bias against trans gloss because I feel it acts as a light filter, and I usually prefer to see the wood itself colored with true clear or lightly tinted clear. I have a lot of experience with water based anilines, and one thing that is crucial is preparation. Your sanding grit and consistency is essential. Unfortunately I have no plans to work with Ash in the near future or I would offer to post pics in the future. If anyone out there is working with Ash, and they want it dyed, maybe I'll do it for them, so long as there's nothing on the wood. That bass is fabulous by the way. I saw it in some other post you made and I liked it then. Also understand that I don't argue my position on this with any degree of conviction because I know everyone has different methods and skill levels. But to say "Ash and Maple don't dye well" is false from the standpoint that I think the guitars I've dyed looked fantastic, and I've had great results on both woods. Neither my Maple or Ash projects have had any inherent "failures" in them. So perhaps what we should say is: "A lot of people have trouble dying Ash, so the general consensus has been to shoot tinted clear instead." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren wilson Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...pic=11688&st=30 This thread seems to confirm my belief that ash doesn't dye well; at least, GuitarFrenzy, Setch, and the sources they consulted all thought that. This thread may counter the theory that ash doesn't stain well: http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=11448 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 it might darren but not everybody have such good luck staining swamp ash! And if you read his first post he made a lot of research before even starting, if you are not that careful, you mess up your stain job, in my opinion, why go thru such pain, when you have so many paints, water based and polys that come in transparent colors and will yield impresive results with out bursting an ulser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_here Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 It just occured to me that Hitone didn't say what kind of dye he used. Was it powdered? (and he mixed it himself)? Or was it one of ReRanch's liquid dyes? Also, Hitone didn't specify if he used a water-base? (or not)? Nothing personal, btw, Hitone! (Just curious on the details). Other than that what we have so far on this thread are disagreements and (opposing) chosen methods. Nothing wrong with that, imo. Depends on what you like & what you want. In the meantime, I think I need to study the replies here and actually take some *notes* as we have several side-topics going on as well. ...Hmmmmmm..... Now lemme see here.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_here Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 PS/addendum- Actually it isn't really an issue if Hitone used water-based (or not). I mean, he sealed the guitar first...which just about everyone is not-recommending. NEwayz, I hope he comes back and we can come up with "more" on these different methods for "coloring ash." Seems like Matt's (GuitarFrenzy's) method has been adequately covered. I'd like to know how MikeB's project turned out...or any other ideas from anybody else. Do we need a new thread to "cover" each of the methods step-by-step? or what??? You know, with all the variables.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitone Posted October 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Thanks for all the feedback. I've taken a lot of notes. Rick, I did the Reranch (Transtints) Alcohol Based Dye. The dry power that I mixed with Denatured Alcohol. It looks like my downfall was in sealing the wood first. A costly mistake! I tested the dye on some scrap raw ash. Check it out HERE. It's the looks good but... ...when I saw Guitarfrenzy's pics, I reconsidered my approach. I used Tone sprays on my Mosrite and it came out awesome. I have stripped my guitar down and am ready to refinished it. I went to my local hardware store and lucked out when the Mohawk rep. was stocking the shelves. He showed me the Orange transparent toner that they sale. I tested it out and it's the way I'm going. I will post picks on how it turns out soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeB Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 rick, my guitar is almost finished i will do a thorough write up on it, including the dying process. i think it is looking great. i had to alter it a bit.. neck was a bit too wide at a part, but the beltsander fixed that, better being too wide than too small! anyhow, ill post pics in a few days. i hope fullservesite is working for me again. hitone, good luck man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 I certainly didn't mean to come across as a know-it-all; it seems, however, I have painted myself as quite the antagonist. I am NOT saying ash or maple cannot be dyed; I am sure any wood, in certain situations, can and cannot be dyed based on a number of factors. What I am saying is that multiple respected members have reported trouble dyeing ash and maple, so clearly it is sometimes an issue/ Not always, not every piece of wood. Some wood. It has been an issue for people in the past, so it is something to consider in this situation. It's not the be-all end-all of solutions, but it is one problem people have had that may or may not be recurring in this case. Sorry if I came across as a jerk or a bully; I'm American, I can't help it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_here Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 skibum- Naaaaa, no one's come across as The Big Expert (not to me NEwayz)....just diff approaches. Hitone- Great! Glad to hear you've chosen yer Method & thanx for the FYI. MikeB- Yeah, man! (can't wait to see that)...... So. Y'all take it easy. Till next time, rick ><> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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