Hanging A Guitar By The Headstock

[bowser]

Bowser- I need time to bring the wet/dry vac up from the shop.

oooohhhhh, now I wish I hadn't asked...

EDIT-

How in the holyhell does the tuning go FLAT if it's being PULLED on?

i second that question.i read it several times to make sure i was reading it right

You know I was actually thinking about this earlier. If you tune it to be in exact tune in playing position, then it would be possible for the guitar to be slightly flat when vertical. This could be because of the slight pull of gravity on the strings and stuff. But, even if that were the case, I doubt that there would be much change in pitch at all, and if it was flat that probably can prove that hanging by the neck isn't bringing any problems with it.

Edited December 6, 2004 by bowser

[soapbarstrat]

Dude, do you store your guitars in some reverse-gravity chamber? Alternate universe? Wormhole? Blackhole?

How in the holyhell does the tuning go FLAT if it's being PULLED on?

That officially defies the laws of physics

Also, what kind of guitar are you using?

Strat? Larrivee? Acoustic? Electric? Double-neck? Steinberger?

Bowser- I need time to bring the wet/dry vac up from the shop.

Nothing out of the ordinary. Basswood black '86 Fender strat. Maple neck, rosewood board. About .005 forward bow in the neck, low action. I did tune it in playing positon first, but then tuned while upright in the floor stand, then simulated the hanger with my two fingers. The nut area is actually being pushed on, when supported at that point ??? , probably, partly due to the neck having string pull and slight relief. maybe having to do with the string pull weight being more than the guitars weight.

We can go on forever about my experiment showing the string tension going slightly flat, if you want.

[Kevan]

We can go on forever about my experiment showing the string tension going slightly flat, if you want.

Absolutely, because I just don't get it.

Unless you're "hanging" the guitar by the nut "area" in a HORIZONTAL postion (like you're putting a pizza in an oven with it), I don't see how it could go flat.

Maybe it's got new strings and they haven't been stretched out?

I'm grasping here....I can't come up with anything. Certainly not anything that relates to a guitar being hung on a guitar hangar.

Back to the Larrivee thing:

1. That newsgroup message you linked to is from 1998. :-)

2. Oops....looks like their voiding their own warranty before they even sell them-

http://www.12fret.com/new/larrivee_SD-60_SH_guitar.html

3. A Japanese guy caught some Larrivee's hung at a NAMM show:

http://www.soundhouse.co.jp/show/namm2003s...stic_guitar.htm

(...wow...most other guitar makers hang them as well....interesting.)

4. And from Ishibashi more from the NAMM 2003 shots:

http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/report/namm2003/48.htm

Man, that's a lot of voided warranties right there....on some pricey guitars!

LGM- how about some shots from your local store that has them? :-)

Or are we done here?

[soapbarstrat]

Why don't you just do the experiment like I did. All I need to know is what I witnessed. You might do it and find you don't see any change in tuning like LGM said.

I read that whole newsgroup thread. Someone still says The company mentioning a warranty void in their manual.

Maybe you were hoping that I hadn't actually seen that written anywhere.

Yes, write to them and see what they say about it now.

And keep telling me my guitar really didn't change string pull with the experiment, and maybe it's all because I have a huge amount of stock invested in floor stands, so I just have to be out to get the wall hanger ones.

[Kevan]

Why don't you just do the experiment like I did.  All I need to know is what I witnessed. You might do it and find you don't see any change in tuning like LGM said.

I don't need to do an experiment. I've been seeing the results for the past 8+ years. Every time I take a guitar off the hangar it's in the exact same tuning I put it up there with. If you want me to videotape something for the Forum, I'd gladly do it.

I read that whole newsgroup thread. Someone still says The company mentioning a warranty void in their manual.  Maybe you were hoping that I hadn't actually seen that written anywhere.

I could give a bologna sandwich.

And I still haven't seen it written anywhere, other than some non-company posts online.

I have, however, seen a bunch of pics showing the "Don't Hang Them Company" actually hanging their guitars themselves.

Yes, write to them and see what they say about it now.

Oh, I will ABSOLUTLEY be calling them first thing tomorrow. I'm sure I could post that the sky is blue and you'd still look up, so I'll record the conversation if you'd like.

And keep telling me my guitar really didn't change string pull with the experiment, and maybe it's all because I have a huge amount of stock invested in floor stands, so I just have to be out to get the wall hanger ones.

I'm not telling you what you saw. I'm still trying to figure out howthehell you went flat. That line just stunned me (and others).

Also, I'm not sure how you're experimenting w/o an actual hangar. It seems to me you only have part of the testing apparatus necessary, and that makes for easily questionable results.

[www]

The things people can argue about!

I say hang em all till the necks stretch and snap.

[Kevan]

OFFICIAL WORD FROM LARRIVEE

"Hanging any of our guitars by the headstock does *not* void the warranty."

-courtesy of Brian in the Service Department of Jean Larrivee Guitars, Vancouver, BC.

[LGM Guitars]

are you sure kev? did you record it LOL

[soapbarstrat]

That doesn't answer the question as to wether or not they ever did say something about neck-hanger = warranty void. Anyway, That's not what my opinion of how much I would trust those hangers comes from. This is what I wrote when I saw what that one guy wrote about larivee having a warranty void :

"Seems that Larivee guitars stated in the owners manual that the warranty will be void if the guitar is stored on a hanger. Perhaps they can actually tell if a guitar has been stored this way. "

And I saw the follow-ups in that google thread about the Larivees being hung up in the shops, etc. Which Kevan had to point out, as if I hadn't read them. But anyone knows, you can't actually tell a person " Ah, I'm looking at your neck with a warping or twisting problem. And I can tell you must have been hanging it on one of those neck hangers for it to get this way".

If I'd buy a guitar, and see that written in the warranty, I would be afraid to buy another guitar from that company, because if I wouldn't be using a hanger, they could just say I did.

I was wondering what John Suhr thinks of the hangers, and he said that as long as the room is well climate controlled the hanger shouldn't cause warping. What he didn't like about the hangers is that he thinks it will put wear marks on the neck. I guess that makes sense, if there's a smaller area bearing the load as opposed to a floor stand where more areas are being supported.

However, finish damage or wear is not why I don't trust the hangers. I don't trust them for the reasons I have already given.

also, When I said my tuning went " slightly flat", don't be thinking my E went to a full E flat., like tuning down a half-step. That would be like me saying the time is 1:08 and your brain thinks I said it's 1:30.

[Kevan]

Damn....I thought for sure that would be enough. I guess I was wrong. *sigh*

Ok, here we go....

That doesn't answer the question as to wether or not they ever did say something about neck-hanger = warranty void. Anyway, That's not what my opinion of how much I would trust those hangers comes from.  This is what I wrote when I saw what that one guy wrote about larivee having a warranty void :

"Seems that Larivee guitars stated in the owners manual that the warranty will be void if the guitar is stored on a hanger. Perhaps they can actually tell if a guitar has been stored this way. "

In my 1 min 43 sec. conversation with Brian at Larrivee he stated that hangars are not a warranty void issue with them. Brian's been working for Larrivee, as he said, "For a very long time". I take that as he knows *** he's talking about. If there was something in an owners manual or any other printed/written warning from J.Larrivee Guitars, he would have known about it and said something. He didn't.

And I saw the follow-ups in that google thread about the Larivees being hung up in the shops, etc. Which Kevan had to point out, as if I hadn't read them.  But anyone knows, you can't actually tell a person " Ah, I'm looking at your neck with a warping or twisting problem. And I can tell you must have been hanging it on one of those neck hangers for it to get this way". 

If I'd buy a guitar, and see that written in the warranty, I would be afraid to buy another guitar from that company, because if I wouldn't be using a hanger, they could just say I did.

Soap- did you, personally, see anything written by J.Larrivee Guitars about hanging guitars voiding the warranty? Or was it simply something someone posted in that newsgroup? Do any of those guys have a scan or something they could fax to me? If so, 614-933-9335...I even put a new ink cartridge in today, and the fax is on 24/7. Do they have a model name/number and/or a serial number of the guitar that has the owners manual that said that?

The folks at Larrivee have the address to this thread. I'm sure they're laughing their balls off right now. If they'd like to post something official, please feel free to do so. You guys will get VIP status immediately. Your input is quite welcome.

I was wondering what John Suhr thinks of the hangers, and he said that as long as the room is well climate controlled the hanger shouldn't cause warping.  What he didn't like about the hangers is that he thinks it will put wear marks on the neck. I guess that makes sense, if there's a smaller area bearing the load...

This is another issue entirely (and hopefully won't cause your guitar to go flat. LMAO). Yes- appropriate protective covers on the hanger arms are necessary. Nitro finishes are very touchy when it comes to this, so be careful with the older gear. If you want, you can get non-marring special covers/tubing for your hangars. I think there are some 'fur covered' ones that are supposed to be good. The red non-marring covers I have on mine have worked great and not left a single mark in the past 4 years. If you're worried, get the protective covers.

...as opposed to a floor stand where more areas are being supported.

This, however, is untrue. I've seen a couple of guitars with marks from floor stands. Both had marks at the neck and on the back of the body. Sorry, but floor stands lose in this department as well. A shame too, one was a REALLY nice EB/MM Silhouette, with a black square on the back of the body, and black line around the back of the neck at about the 8th fret.

Oh man, I just saw this an your earlier post from Soap:

By the way, this stand came with that "surgical' yellow rubber tubing, which dried up and had to be taken off. So I went out in the garage and looked in my auto parts bin, and found some old black hose that had been taken out of a car. I cleaned the hell out of the hose, then put it on the stand.

PLEASE find something else besides radiator hose/heater line to cover them with.

Hell, use a napkin. You'll thank me later on.

However, finish damage or wear is not why I don't trust the hangers. I don't trust them for the reasons I have already given.

Which we helped reassure you that your fears and worries are all for naught. Go back a page in this thread.

also,  When I said my tuning went " slightly flat",  don't be thinking my E went to a full E flat., like tuning down a half-step. That would be like me saying the time is 1:08 and your brain thinks I said it's 1:30.

I don't understand this at all. Does anyone else get it? Please explain it to me. Actually, first tell me how it can go flat in the first place, then explain the rest.

[soapbarstrat]

"One very important thing to remember is never to leave your guitar hanging on the wall in winter. The heat from a furnace rises. While floor temperatures may be 18°C, five feet off the floor it may be 22°C, and eight feet above the floor 27°C! At that extreme temperature, the relative humidity becomes extremely low."

http://www.acousticfingerstyle.com/humdity.htm

As for the other stuff in your last post, re-read what I had written before *slowly*, this time.

[Kevan]

Humidity and temp were not mentioned nor part of our previous discussion, but thanks for the info. I'll add to the hangar tutorial about using an INSIDE wall to minimize the risks of the heat/cold.

I can't control the heat or humidity that someone has in their house. LGM's heat is probably pretty high right now, but his humidity is fairly low (in his living room; not in his shop where I'm sure it's controlled). Brian, on the other hand, is dealing with relatively nice heat, and very high humidity, year round. Different setups for different parts of the world. It's a factor that must be dealt with, esp. with acoustic guitars.

But this thread is about hangars and if they have any adverse effect on guitars and/or necks. Aside from your experiment with the Strat going flat (yes- I'm still working on how you did that), there haven't been posts about damage caused by hanging a guitar.

For the record, I did re-read this thread. Many times. I *still* don't understand your last line in that post- "1:08 but your brain thinks I said 1:30"??!!?? If you said 1:08, why on earth would I think you said 1:30? And it relates to tuning how? I'm gonna let someone else decipher that one.

Please tell me that you'll take care of that heater hose stand ASAP. I'd hate to see any of your guitars with a black band around the back of the neck or body.

[LGM Guitars]

So what if I built guitar hangers that hung the guitars upside down from the body, you know, giant sized that holds the body in the horns, or in the waist of the guitar, if I design that and it becomes famous, will you have issues with how it affects the neck after that?

[soapbarstrat]

For the record, I did re-read this thread. Many times. I *still* don't understand your last line in that post- "1:08 but your brain thinks I said 1:30"??!!?? If you said 1:08, why on earth would I think you said 1:30? And it relates to tuning how? I'm gonna let someone else decipher that one.

Please tell me that you'll take care of that heater hose stand ASAP. I'd hate to see any of your guitars with a black band around the back of the neck or body.

Again : I said the tuning went *slightly* flat, and it's understandable that when a guitar neck gets a little additional pressure on the headstock, it is likely to change the tuning a slight bit. Like when I have a guitar clamped in the neck jig, with the neck suspended freely, except a dial indicator under the neck, then I ever so lightly just touch the headstock with a finger and the dial indicator moves.

So, you had me wondering if my *slightly* flatted note description was interpreted by you, as something closer to an E note going down to an E flat note ( tuned down a half-step), not just gone off tuning a slight bit.

Now, if I have to explain that better for you, I'll have to start teaching basic English lessons here, which I won't.

The well cleaned rubber on my one stand has been on there for about 15 years, with a guitar always on the stand, except when being played. Sometimes different guitars would be on it for a while, including lightly oil finished ones. Maybe you're a rubber and finish expert, but your opinion about this particular stand of mine has no validity , based on my actual long-term use of this stand/rubber/guitar combination.

So, no, I won't be taking the rubber off the stand and nothing bad is going to happen from me leaving it this way.

[soapbarstrat]

Humidity and temp were not mentioned nor part of our previous discussion, but thanks for the info

I mentioned it. I said I saw Suhr make a comment that that's a concern of his in regard to the wall hanger stands.

You're welcome for the Larrivee info. Maybe I can still fax it to you. Isn't there some kind of online fax sending thing I could use ?

You know, some kind of Kevan-like intense way of going about it.

[Kevan]

Again : I said the tuning went *slightly* flat, and it's understandable that when a guitar neck gets a little additional pressure on the headstock, it is likely to change the tuning a slight bit. Like when I have a guitar clamped in the neck jig, with the neck suspended freely, except a dial indicator under the neck, then I ever so lightly just touch the headstock with a finger and the dial indicator moves.

So, you had me wondering if my *slightly* flatted note description was interpreted by you, as something closer to an E note going down to an E flat note ( tuned down a half-step), not just gone off tuning a slight bit.

Why are you touching the headstock? The only contact point should be the bottleneck edges of the neck between the wings of the headstock. Damn, do I have to draw a map? Look at the pics of my hangars in the tutorial or previous posts. There are only two points where the hangar touches the neck, and neither of them are on the headstock.

If you're messing with the headstock IN ANYWAY, of course your tuning will change! My suggestion would be to stop using your fingers/hand as a hangar and actually try a real one for your testing.

When you talk about tunings, please use the cent amount. That's a lot easier than "sort of E flat" or "close to E".

Now, if I have to explain that better for you, I'll have to start teaching basic English lessons here, which I won't.

Sorry, but your explanation is not very clear. I don't think I want English lessons from Mr. Flatted anyway.

The well cleaned rubber on my one stand has been on there for about 15 years, with a guitar always on the stand, except when being played. Sometimes different guitars would be on it for a while, including lightly oil finished ones.  Maybe you're a rubber and finish expert, but your opinion about this particular stand of mine has no validity , based on my actual long-term use of this stand/rubber/guitar combination.

So, no, I won't be taking the rubber off the stand and nothing bad is going to happen from me leaving it this way.

I'm neither a rubber nor finish expert, but I do know that heater hose designed for vehicles (usually silicone) is not designed to cushion finished necks on guitars. It's actually designed to run water/coolant through the cooling system of a vehicle.

I'm happy that you've been lucky with your heater hose stand cushion. I'm glad that you haven't had negative results. I just don't see it as a viable option to use heater hose for cushioning and thus my suggestion for you to replace it. If you like the risk involved, go for it! Your shop, your guitars, your heater hose. I just can't recommend it to anyone. Sorry.

I'll do some digging and try to find the protective tubing that's on the String Swing holders. They're the only holders recommended and sold by Gruhn Guitars, and that's good enough for me.

I mentioned it. I said I saw Suhr make a comment that that's a concern of his in regard to the wall hanger stands.

Like I said....

Humidity and temp were not mentioned nor part of our previous discussion, but thanks for the info.

You're welcome for the Larrivee info.

I'm welcome? For what? I did the digging on line. I called Larrivee. Remind me why I'm thanking you.....

Maybe I can still fax it to you. Isn't there some kind of online fax sending thing I could use ?

I'm not sure what's out there. Try Google.

You know, some kind of Kevan-like intense way of going about it.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

[www]

So what if I built guitar hangers that hung the guitars upside down from the body, you know, giant sized that holds the body in the horns, or in the waist of the guitar, if I design that and it becomes famous, will you have issues with how it affects the neck after that?

Why then the tuning would be a hair "sharper"!

[soapbarstrat]

Yes, draw me a map and explaination of a guitar where the "bottleneck edges of the neck between the wings of the headstock" are not actually part of the headstock. The hangers need to rest on what *IS* headstock wood. That's why you can't put a steinberger *headless* guitar on those hangers stands. It needs a headstock to rest on the 2 bars.

LED tuner. When in perfect tune all 3 light at the same time. Tuned it perfect, then held guitar in hanger position. then 2 LEDs lit, one flickered , like when you're almost, but not quite perfectly in tune.

[LGM Guitars]

At this point, I think the consensus is that no, it is NOT detrimental to your guitars, even the bigwigs have said NO, if you don't want to believe that, then simply put don't hang your guitars! As for this discussion continuing.........

[soapbarstrat]

At this point, I think the consensus is that no, it is NOT detrimental to your guitars, even the bigwigs have said NO

Hey Jeremy, check out what this big-wig wannabe wrote :

http://www.acousticfingerstyle.com/humdity.htm

[Kevan]

HANGARS! HANGARS! HANGARS!

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HANGARS HERE!!!!

Get it?

This thread is NOT about humidity/temp. conditions!!!

Also, I'd *hardly* call Jean Larrivee a "wannabe big wig".

[LGM Guitars]

At this point, I think the consensus is that no, it is NOT detrimental to your guitars, even the bigwigs have said NO

Hey Jeremy, check out what this big-wig wannabe wrote :

http://www.acousticfingerstyle.com/humdity.htm

It's a great article, nothing in there I didn't already know, what relevance does it have to this thread? In a case, on a hangar or on a regular stand, humidity and temperature will affect a guitar. Nobody has disputed that once in this thread.

You act like everyone is attacking you, you're blatantly ignoring everyone else's opinion or facts as though only yours matter. Nobody has blown off your findings, just some miscommunication. It's not an attack, this has gotten really stupid at this point, it's at the point where if it were up to me, this thread would be locked.

[soapbarstrat]

HANGARS! HANGARS! HANGARS!

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HANGARS HERE!!!!

Get it?

This thread is NOT about humidity/temp. conditions!!!

Also, I'd *hardly* call Jean Larrivee a "wannabe big wig".

Jeez, this guy can't even see obvious sarcasm, and the other ones are too quick to see it. Yes *hangers* and what the concerns about using them are. The Larrivee article *mentions* his concerns with humidity conditions/temp conditions when using hangers on the wall. Too obvious to mention, but you're yelling like I went off topic.

I still want to see your "map" of the guitar that can be hung without being supported by the ends of the headstock "ears". Yes, part of the headstock behind the nut area.

Are you going to get around to finding fault with my LED tuner ? I want a peterson, but this one will tune a guitar. I also use a tuning fork, and especially for checking the accuracy of a cheap tuner like mine.

Now, Kevan, maybe you can get something off your chest by yelling :

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT HEADSTOCKS !!!

[soapbarstrat]

You act like everyone is attacking you, you're blatantly ignoring everyone else's opinion or facts as though only yours matter.  Nobody has blown off your findings, just some miscommunication.  It's not an attack, this has gotten really stupid at this point, it's at the point where if it were up to me, this thread would be locked.

Same the other way around. And right, it will probably take a thread lock to end it. I think Kev will need to throw in his last word before that happens.

[Kevan]

The ONLY relevace that article has is these TWO lines:

"Keep your guitar out of the case. A guitar stand is a good idea as it allows the air to circulate around your guitar."

I've read the article 5 times now. That's the only mention in there.

Your map is right here:

http://www.tremol-no.com/images/hangars/WALL009.JPG

Take a very close look. Do you see the two points where the hangar arms touch the guitars?

Good.

Memorize that.

Now, when you do your test, only touch those same two places on your guitar. Don't touch the headstock, body, wiring, frets or anything else.....just those two points. Trust me- if you're going to do a real test, get an actual hangar. Don't use your fingers as a hangar.

I will ABSOLUTELY NOT get into a discussion with you about LED, aka Blip-O-Matic, tuners. Their accuracy isn't even an option in my book. Cents, my man....cents. I have a $15 tuner that shows me cents.

You're right- this thread isn't about headstocks.

It's about guitar hangars.

Steinbergers are headless? Hmmm...who knew?