Fitting Necks, For Dummies

[deadmike]

ok, heres the deal see.

i gots me this neck see, its a black Encore jobbie with 22 of those things you call frets.

i also gots me one lovely body, ready to be fitted up, if you gets me drift.

so whats a guy to do? i start reading all this stuff about some "scale length" and "bridge positions".

lets pretend i know NOTTIN'. what do you do step by step laid out for simpletons?

i honestly cant find any easy to follow instruction for a first timer like myself and need some specifics about what scale lenght is correct for the things i have. also how deep the neck should be set for certain bridge types.

it also doesnt help that i cant find my bridge type anywhere on the net... its starting to scare me!

all info is greatly appreciated

[Drak]

OK, I'll be the bad guy again.

I have answered this question in -great- detail at -least- 5-6 times in the past, and I know many many others have done so as well.

That means that the answer you want is here, in some old conversations, many times over. But it IS there. More than once even.

Use the search feature, use the appropriate words for your search, and spend some time reading.

Unless someone wants to spell it all out again, then next month, again, then next month, well, you get the picture.

It takes about a SERIOUS straight 1/2 hour of typing to answer your question -properly and thoroughly- so that you will understand all the different issues involved.

Maybe someone wants to do it again.

[RAI6]

To find out what the scale length is on your guitar, just measure the distance between the nut (the fingerboard side, not the headstock side) and the 12th fret.

Multiply that by 2, and you have your scale length.

When intonated, the high E strings saddle should fall at the the scale length measurement. The other saddles fall where they may as you intonate.

To know how deep to set the neck, you should really draw everything out at full size to know FOR SURE.

Just draw a straight line that will represent the string, and then figure out how high above the frets it should be (action), then draw in the neck using the actual measurements, and also mark out the bridge height.

I think that's it.......

[Drak]

I'm pretending I know absolutely nothing....(which is not so far from the truth most days )

____________

"To find out what the scale length is on your guitar, just measure the distance between the nut (the fingerboard side, not the headstock side) and the 12th fret.

Multiply that by 2, and you have your scale length."

____________

Well, OK, but what IS a scale length? Why are there different scale lengths? Is my scale length normal? Is my neck OK? My neck fits a little funny in the pocket of the body I bought (separately) What does this mean?

____________

"When intonated, the high E strings saddle should fall at the the scale length measurement. "

____________

Oh really? How do you know that? Can you explain that? You just slide that saddle up to the scale length marker and that's it? Sounds easy!

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"The other saddles fall where they may as you intonate."

____________

OK, you've walked me out on a limb, you're gonna leave me out here and not explain what intonation is and why it's necessary? Just fall where they may?

____________

To know how deep to set the neck, you should really draw everything out at full size to know FOR SURE.

____________

OK, will do. What exactly do you mean by everything?

____________

"Just draw a straight line that will represent the string, and then figure out how high above the frets it should be (action)"

____________

OK, how do I figure that out? Can you help me understand? I don't understand how you do that.

____________

"then draw in the neck using the actual measurements, and also mark out the bridge height."

____________

I thought I already drew the neck when I drew everything? I'm confused now.

____________

"I think that's it......."

____________

OK, thanks!

...as I said, it takes a -serious- 1/2 hour or more to really lay what you asked for, out. And we've laid it ALL out many times before.

Yeah, I know, smart ass.

[deadmike]

cheers drak, i understand these questions have been answered before but i HONESTLY did try the search feature and came up with about 12 questions exactly the same as mine... unanswered.

also i thought this kind of thing would be in the tutorials... but no luck. if its there... i'll find it!!

i really have been reading up, im just thick as mince and need it spelled out.

thanks

[deadmike]

does anyone have any links to any related threads on this? i cant find anything other than the 31 fret pictorial thread which isnt much good to me.

i truthfully am trying to do my homework on this and not simply get quick answers.

cheers

[Drak]

I don't mind answering a dozen specific questions, but I call what you asked one of those broadside of the barn 'broadstroke' questions which are so overwhelming no one could answer it in under a 1/2 hour.

If you have a handle on some of it and need help in specific areas, then ask away, we'd be more than glad to target shoot specifics.

Later tonight I'll see if I can find one of the old conversations for you, gotta go make dat money now. Duckets, Dineros, Benitos, Green Grease, Fatbacks, Bennies, Happy Paper, Tiki Bar Notes, .......

[deadmike]

thanks drak, when im gen'ed up i'll use this thread to pose SPECIFIC questions.

... so its money you want huh...

[Drak]

Yes.

Money talks.

[javacody]

And Drak walks?

I'm following this thread with interest, because I'm just about ready to build my neck, and am looking for every tidbit of wisdom I can find.

[RAI6]

Yeah, I know, smart ass.

But we still love you........

[Drak]

I'm not worthy! (kneeling and bowing profusely)

I should have added in that I meant no diss to RA16 at all, it was aimed more at the fact that NO one could really answer a question like that in less than, ohhhh, 1000 words or more.

[Drak]

I found these old posts in less than 5 minutes with the search feature, sorted by my name only.

You should be able to find massive amounts more with no specific name input.

Try the search engine, you'll like it.

_____________________

Well, I'll give you my normal song and dance routine about the fact that if the relationships between:

1. The scale length being precisely correct between nut and bridge saddles

2. A playable action

3. Neck to bridge straightness (presentation of the strings down the neck to the bridge)

...are all correct, -then- you have a guitar in the making.

If any one of those aren't perfectly up to snuff, then you have a pretty piece of sculpted wood for a wall hanging, and that's about it.

Or maybe a slide guitar, ...but I love slide guitar too!

All the cool woods and body shapes don't amount to a pint of ale in Sydney if she won't play properly like a guitar needs to.

So...leave the worries about your finish at the doorstop, and concentrate on making a guitar first, and a pretty guitar second.

This will adjust your priorities to where they need to be.

So.

Yes, you need to be able to at least place the nut in it's final position.

Maybe not permanently set yet, but it needs to be sitting at home, at least temporarily. So if you need to install it, then install it.

Yes, you need to install your stud inserts so you can set the bridge in place.

Yes, you need to then place the neck in the pocket and check your scale length with a 4' rule from nut to bridge saddles for correct length. You may need to back the neck up a snatch or even move it forward, which would mean re-cutting the neck pocket forward a hair, but you need to know this information, it's critical.

You have already drilled your insert holes, so that end is set in stone, if you need movement, it will have to come from sliding the neck forward or back.

I never drill those holes until I've already set the neck in place, butted up against the pocket, then measure and mark those holes.

You seem to have drilled them w/o being sure of your scale length being on the mark yet...maybe you have? My bad if you have checked that already.

With the neck in the pocket, sit the 4' rule on the neck and check the travel down to the bridge.

Is the neck sitting too high? Too low? (shim)

You need to know in case you need to deepen the pocket or you'll need a little shim or something, but you need this information, this is what makes a guitar a guitar.

Don't worry about your inserts, take a Q-tip and snap it in half and stick them down in the holes to protect your threads...hell, I've even picked up a cig butt or two and jammed them in there (they were mine )...a perfect fit.

Once you get all that figured out, and everything is working OK, then decide how you're installing the neck. If you're using a neck plate, just hold it up to the pocket from the back and line it up, mark your holes and drill them out in the body.

Then get your neck all lined up PERFECT, and stick a clamp (gently but firmly, use a light cloth over the frets) and clamp it in place while you drill out your holes thru the body and into the neck.

Make sure you mark your drill bit with tape so you don't drill thru to the top of the fretboard. Make sure you know the correct drill bit size to use beforehand.

Afterwards, screw that sucker on and doublecheck everything, string travel, scale length, and (rough) action.

Then you can disassemble everything for finishing.

OK for now?

Get your head into what makes a guitar a guitar, not cool body shapes and pkp route holes and quilts and that stuff, none of that stuff makes a guitar a guitar.

____________________________

The relationship of the nut, frets, and bridge placement *IS* the guitar. If you don't have that right, you don't even have a guitar to start off with. The body shape is completely an incidental to the guitar itself, and if the bridge isn't in the EXACT correct place, you just have a body, a neck, and some strings, but you certainly don't have a guitar.

So ask as many questions as you need to ask about the placement of all parts so you got a guitar in the end .

You need to be DEAD certain of these things:

Scale length of fret placement match the scale length of the nut-to-bridge relationship. (You have a 25 1/2" scale neck, your distance between the nut and bridge needs to be 25 1/2" exactly. You have a 24 3/4" neck, the distance between the nut and bridge needs to be 24 3/4" exactly...just coming 'close' don't intonate)

And we're talking about the bridge SADDLES in particular, not just the overall bridge itself.

The left-to-right placement of the bridge in relationship to the neck so your strings travel correctly down the neck and don't waunder off to the left or right. A 1/16" off to the left or right will yield a wall hanging, unless you want to have 2 sets of nut slots in your bridge saddles.

The height of the neck sitting in the neck pocket in relationship to the bridge height so you get a decent action from it. Too high or low = wall hanging (or a decent slide guitar maybe )

The bridge placement distance-wise from the nut to insure the guitar will tune up and INTONATE correctly.

The height of the nut and the neck relief.

There's more, but it's all about the strings, nut, bridge, scale length.

The shape of your body can be pretty much anything under the sun, but those things above have to be DEAD ON or you got no guitar, you got a cool wall-hanging.

So ask away, anything you need, we're here for ya.

________________________________

Everybody has their own way of going about their operations, here's my basic rundown:

1- mark the centerline of the instrument first. This is always the very first thing I do, everything hangs on that centerline. If the guitar is already finished, put some tape down. If not just mark it with a pen or pencil straight down the center of the guitar, top to bottom.

2- neck pocket is the next thing I do. You can hold a 4' rule up against the left and right sides of the neck when held in place, see how it lines up to your centerline, adjust as necessary so the neck is centered. Mark it and route it out. I use a template to do this, don't know how you're doing yours.

3- standard depth is 5/8. give or take a 1/16". Route it out, fit the neck in, check it for centerline trueness, bolt it down.

Don't drill any bridge holes until you have the neck secured down and you're sure it's centered to the centerline.

Post back when you've got that done

_________________

[javacody]

Drak,

That is all excellent information.

On my guitar, the scale is going to be 25.5". Now I attach the neck, measure 25.5 inches down the centerline, and place my bridge where in relation to the 25.5" point? Do my E saddles need to be even with this point in their travel furthest toward the neck (i.e. all the way towards the neck)? How do you recommend I do this? I read about this a few times here, but didn't seem to read any hard and fast rules. Some folks recommended placing the E saddles 3/4 of the way up, and making that the measuring point. What do you do?

[deadmike]

"Try the search engine, you'll like it. "

cheeky beggar, as i said before I DID TRY THE BLOODY SEARCH ENGINE, i honestly on my mothers eyes found nothing like whats above. even using basic searches with words like "neck" and "scale".

thats great info though and im printing it off right now so i can read it in front of the parts.

thats very much appreciated drak, thank you.

[deadmike]

ok. im still learning and still looking for info.

so far from what i can figure out, ive got an encore neck and the frets are slightly wider than my gibson necks. if going by the 12fret to the nut my encore neck is exactly 25" for scale length which is amazing, because the guitar im copying is the same.

with that done im on to two puzzlers which im sure will take equal amounts of reading.

1) now that the saddles must sit 12 & half inches away from the 12th fret, which saddle do i measure from. my saddles arrived all in different places. i couldnt find any info that says anything about that. on my other guitars the saddles are slanted and on some there all over the place, yet my book talks as if they should be in line?

the info above says to line up with the top and bottom E saddles. yet on my gibson guitars the top and bottom saddles are sitting at different lengths.?

2) how deep do i set the neck into the body? now that i have a rough idea of where the bridge is going, how do i figure out how the string should sit?

if i router the hole for the neck i know it'll sit flat. no problem, so is getting the depth correct just a case of trial and error? or can it be worked out with all the parts sitting in front of me?

[javacody]

On my Gibson type guitars, the neck hits the body at the 16th fret and on my Strat it the neck hits the body between the 16 and 17 frets.

I too want to know about the saddles. I just measured on my strat from the center of the 12th fret, my low E is exactly thirteen inches away (intonated properly), my high E is about 12 and 3/4" (which is where it should be on a 25 1/2" scale), however, it is not all the way up towards the nut, so it looks like on this guitar, when the saddles are all the way up, they would hit the 12 1/2" mark (25" from the nut). Does this sound about right to you guys?

[Drak]

I was going to give this thread a nice long thorough reply, just needed the time to sit down and type it out, which I will do here later tonight.

This should be a good discussion.

[deadmike]

come on you boffins! teach us numpties a thing or two!

[G_urr_A]

Sorry for a bit of a hijack.

I just realised that this thread is good in several ways.

1. Deadmike is not just begging and begging and begging, but begging and trying to find for himself and thanking when someone else finds. That's good.

2. It contains lots of good info.

3. It keeps the info availible. This is my main point.

If we would, each time someone asked about scale length, refer to the search function and some older thread, the actual answers to any question would sooner or later be lost from these forums. There has to be an upper limit as to how old a thread can get before it is removed to save space. So after a long while we would have a series of links leading to a dead link. And the answer wouldn't be found. So, *in a way*, it is good that new people come by and ask old questions every now and then, even though you often wish they'd ask a little less often.

And that's all for tonight.

[westhemann]

There has to be an upper limit as to how old a thread can get before it is removed to save space.

nope...the very first post on this forum is still available for perusal

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=21

[deadmike]

i have to say. if similar questions ARE being asked repetitively then it would make sense that best info posted should be stored in... umm ... i dunno ... a TUTORIAL. that way when a numbskull like me comes along looking for info you need only point him to relavent section.

im actaully a bit disspointed in number of tutorials on here. most sections only have 2 or 3 that are pretty much make/style/part dependant. not much use to someone that needs more general knowledge.

[westhemann]

well alot of guitar building tecqniques are very general in nature...and there are ALOT of tutorials on the main site.try taking a look sometime

i remember i learned ALOT of general knowledge when i first came here just by reading for a few months before i ever posted.i know in this generation of teens it is not "cool" to take time to read and learn.i realize you would rather be spoon fed all your info in little snippets as you have time to ask questions between episodes of spongebob squarepants.but really,you get ALOT more respect around here if you show a willingness to bone up on general info through the old threads first.

at any given time when i look at the online list,i see newbs in old threads,reading up,and i remember who they are ,and it makes me more than willing to help when they come back with specific questions that can be expounded upon.

get to know your forum...and get to know projectguitar.com as well...you will learn alot

[westhemann]

on my other guitars the saddles are slanted and on some there all over the place, yet my book talks as if they should be in line?

the info above says to line up with the top and bottom E saddles. yet on my gibson guitars the top and bottom saddles are sitting at different lengths.?

for example

http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/intonate.htm

on the main site...and

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...topic=2342&st=0

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=5188

on the forum

[Daniel Sorbera]

dude seriously check this out, scroll down and it shows pics of what these guys are talking about. Seriously, get this guys book...

O also about the saddels being in a different place, move one (doesent matter which one) to the center posistion, and from there It should be the same distance from the saddle to the 12th fret as from the 12th fret to the nut.

Edited December 7, 2004 by Godin SD