Need Help Determining The Right Sg

[1Way]

I've pretty much narrowed my search for my next electric guitar, to a Gibson SG. But now the question seems to be which model, or configuration, would work best for my budget. I like my guitars to be lightweight as I have back problems. Here are my current thoughts over what I would like to have.

Financial

I do not even want to spend a grand, the cheaper the better, but I do not want a lower line instrument that is 20-30% not as good quality as the more expensive stuff. Typically you get what you pay for and I do not want a beginner or economy, just good enough, guitar. I want something with great tone and playability. So far I am targeting a Gibson SG standard, or an Epiphone made with Korina wood, which is considerably lighter than Mahogany. I don't think I could afford a Gibson Korina SG, some prices of Gibson Korina guitars are outrageously high. I am willing to pay $500-$800 or so, and then maybe later fit it with upgraded pickups and whatever else it needs.

Custom Build option

I am intrigued by the idea of building an SG copy, except that I don't think I could do it since I have no shop to work in, and very few tools. I would make it (or have it made) out of a lighter wood, like Korina or similar lightweight wood. This is what I like in SG's

• Lightweight
  
• PAF style humbuckers, like classic 57's, or maybe Seymour Duncan Jeff Beck or Seth Lover, but I'm not
  
• 2 or 3 duel humbuckers
  
• I'm not ruling out active EMG's
  
• Rosewood fingerboard
  
• 24 frets better than 22
  
• Natural or cherry or brown color, I don't like any solid color
  

I'm undecided about a whammy bar, but I like the Bigbsys, if only they would have a greater range, I don't think they change the pitch as much as most other trems.

I went down to the local music shop and played some SG's recently. I liked the pickups on the Supreme guitar the best (Gibson 57's), but I only got to try out the 490 r and t, and 498 and maybe a 500, not sure about that one though. The 57's made the other pups seem like minor league stuff in comparison. It was the first bridge pickup that I was pleased with. But it almost sounded a bit overly tight or sterile. They seemed louder than the other pickups, and certainly had the most bass, which is a bonus that I really like. Plus they had great clarity and punch. I have never tried out a Jeff Beck or a Seth Lover yet. Anyone tried out these pickups and could compare them for me?

If it's relatively easy to make a good quality guitar as some suggest, then why isn't everyone doing it and making better guitars than the major guitar makers? I suspect that the quality that is involved in making a fine musical instrument is a non-tangible that may be nearly impossible for the average unskilled person to replicate with a commensurate amount of competence.

Used or new

I just came back from a guitar swap meet from Toledo and they really didn't have anything in my price range that was like what I wanted. And I don't want a vintage guitar as much as I want just a great working instrument to play with. I would consider buying a new Gibson standard, but as soon as it gets used, you loose about half the value! Buy used and you stand a good chance at retaining your investment. So I suspect that I will want to buy a decent used Gibson SG.

But, which one is for me?

Is there a time period that I should focus on or stay away from?

And are there other lightweight wood options besides Korina?

Should I only be looking for an SG Standard, or are you others that I should consider?

Epiphone elitist copy alternative

I liked the Epiphone SG 61 reissue. It was very impressive all the way around, comes with a great hard shell case and plays and sounds and feels and looks excellent, and all at a lower price tag. If I bought that guitar, I would probably just end up replacing the bridge pickup, maybe the nut too. I can get into one for about $725+tax, brand new, but it says Epiphone, not Gibson on the headstock. Their Elitist guitars are really very nice. Some say they are as good or better than some of the Gibson counterparts, and by my experience with this particular guitar, that might be pretty accurate.

If I bought a brand new standard, I would end up replacing the bridge pickup with a better one. I don't know what they used to put in these guitars years ago.

Thanks in advance for helpful insight and suggestions.

Edited December 6, 2004 by 1Way

[1Way]

Here's a link to an ebay auction of a model that I like, only I wish it was not so "vintage" and thus be lower in price.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...3765882174&rd=1

Also, is 7.2 lbs is the normal weight for these guitars?

Edited December 6, 2004 by 1Way

[1Way]

Maybe to make it lighter, maybe I could add some air grips to the SG, like this one maybe...

[crafty]

That's not even funny...

David Lee Roth:

Your sunglasses won't look right unless they've been splashed in the ocean, and your guitar won't sound right if you didn't buy it in a pawnshop.

If you want a decent axe and you're thinking about EMGs, check out the LTD Viper. It has a deeper lower cutaway and it'll cost you less than a real Gibson. It's not a bad player, either.

Either that or buy an Epiphone and throw a set of Gibson '57s or Seymour Duncan Seth Lovers in it. Both pickups are designed with Alnico II magnets for the vintage output and tone. The Seymour Duncan JB has an Alnico V magnet that allows it to produce more power but tends to muddy the chords and attack a little. The JB and Seth Lover are completely different-sounding pickups, but both are stellar designs.

My fave is the Seymour Duncan Alnico II Pro. I originally tried 'em out because I heard Slash uses them and I think he has probably one of the best all-around rock tones out there. I have found that it is a very versatile pickup for just about anything and I use it in my Strat as a bridge pickup with a coil-split switch for single-coil operation. Very clean clean tone and crisp "brown" overdrive. Some people don't like how it has a scoop in the midrange but I really like the crisp balance between the highs and lows.

I think this thread may either be better suited in Electronics or Player's Corner.

[PerryL]

I've played some LTD's That were very good if you might be interested in those.

If you need a Genuine Gibson SG, It'll take some looking.

[1Way]

Thanks, I'm pretty set on getting an SG, either Gibson or Epi, as I have found the guitar sound out of them to be unique and most desirable. I understand that the pickups can make a big difference in a guitar. Besides how the guitar itself is made, perhaps there is no other ingredient that shapes the sound of the guitar more than the pickups.

I heard that the Vipers are a bit thicker than the SG's and somewhat heavier and have a nice sound to them that one guy said leans towards a Les Paul, which is highly complimentary. But even given all that, I still would prefer an SG for it's unique sound that I like better than a ... Les Paul.

Personally, I like the hand grip idea, but maybe just one instead of two. Or perhaps I could route out some wood on the backside and leave the front alone. having a light guitar is very important to me.

I did not know there was that much of a difference with the JB pickup. I wonder how the Seth Lover and the Semour Duncan Alnico Pro II compare to the classic 57... ?

[Slabbefusk]

IF you got the cash go for the Supreme.

[MzI]

have you taken a look at the Gibson Faded series, they are quite a bit cheaper then the SG standards and sound just as good

MzI

[crafty]

Personally, I like the hand grip idea, but maybe just one instead of two. Or perhaps I could route out some wood on the backside and leave the front alone. having a light guitar is very important to me.

Putting monkey grips on that guitar would look like crap, IMHO. Not to mention the fact that you'll be completely destroying the value of the instrument. You said that you were concerned about the value of the instrument, in fact, and doing that to a real Gibson SG should be a crime. You might as well give someone a $1000 for a bottle of piss and just dump it down your own toilet.

Another thing is the fact that the SG is already neck-heavy because of the already thin and light mahogany body. If you remove even more mass from the body you will lose sustain and make your fretting hand work harder to keep the neck from wanting to point downhill. Putting a monkey grip on the guitar will not change the weight that much, and if you plan on "routing out" even more wood it's going to look and sound like crap.

I hate to sound like a dick, but what you're expecting and what you plan on doing are completely bass-ackwards. Throwing over a grand at any guitar and then destroying it is crazy. I can see screwing with an LTD Viper or maybe the cheapest Epi SG, but doing that to a Gibson or Epi Elite that will increase in value over time is sheer lunacy.

As for the pickups, the Gibson '57 will probably sound very similar to a SD Seth Lover. If you bought a cheaper Epi or the LTD, I'd use the SD pickups because they're a lot less expensive than the Gibsons.

[Daniel Sorbera]

dude you can get a REAL gibson SG for $650 Its a Faded SG Special, They sound great and are good quality.

Hope you get one you like

[1Way]

Slabbefusk,

Chuckles, good idea, but unfortunately, I don't have that much cash, but it truly is really nice.

MzI,

Yes I have, it sounded the most trebly of the bunch, and lacked low end. I would imagine that the pups was at fault, but I can't say for sure.

crafty,

It's an elite that I can get for around $725, not a thousand. There is no need to be abrasive, it was a bit tongue and cheek, but I am serious about wanting a great ax that is also lightweight. Thanks for the pickup comparison. As to my value comment concerns, it was over the buying new verses used issue. For example, if you buy new, you almost always loose in the resale market compared to buying used. You can buy a used Gibson SG for say $825 and turn around and sell it for the same amout. However, buy a new Gibson SG for $1050 and use it for a month or three and you loose hundreds of dollars if you want to sell it. That was the point I was making about considering to buying a new guitar. I'd rather buy a slightly used "like new" Gibson and save perhaps a couple hundred. But if I was to modify my guitar to make it lighter, then resale value would become somewhat of a non-issue because of likely loosing so much resale value.

Godin SD, See my comment to MzI. Except for it being focused on the high end, I like the faded. Oh, and by the way, it has an ebony fingerboard which may be in part why it is a higher frequency guitar. I would prefer rosewood over ebony because of looks and tone, but the ebony fretboard feels/plays really good. Thanks for the friendly attitude and well wishes!

Edited December 7, 2004 by 1Way

[1Way]

Everyone

Back to the original intent of this topic. So far I have some votes for the special faded, and although it is a great guitar especially for the money, but I find it is not deep and low enough in tone. The toneful supreme is very impressive, but costs way too much for my bank account. So far the Gibson SG standard and the Epiphone SG 61 reissue seems to have the nod. Either way I would end up replacing the bridge pickup, probably with a Seth Lover, since it's more economical than the Gibson classic 57, but the quality sounds are similar.

Does anyone have any experience with this guitar?

http://www.musicyo.com/product_images/571_full.jpg

It looks hauntingly similar to the ESP Viper guitars... hmmm I found it by clicking on the Kramer link on Gibson's linked music companies. Wow, I also found another interesting find. My second choice in electric guitars is something along the lines of a Gibson ES 335, only I like the smaller bodies (CS 356) for size and weight issues. Anyway, check out this Kramer semi-hollow smaller body.

http://www.musicyo.com/product_specs.asp?pf_id=173

"Exclusive Kramer Small-Body semi-hollow design with solid-mahogany center block and hollow wings for great sustain with rich, warm overtones! Laminated Flame Maple Top with Mahogany back and sides for great looks with excellent weight and balance."

Does anyone have any experience with this guitar?

I wonder which is lighter, the Gibson SG standard, or the Kramer NightRider...

[crafty]

You can buy a used Gibson SG for say $825 and turn around and sell it for the same amout. However, buy a new Gibson SG for $1050 and use it for a month or three and you loose hundreds of dollars if you want to sell it. That was the point I was making about considering to buying a new guitar. I'd rather buy a slightly used "like new" Gibson and save perhaps a couple hundred.

It really depends on how long you plan on keeping the guitar. If you buy a new guitar and pawn it after six months, yeah, you'll lose maybe a hundred bucks if you sell it to a dealer. If you managed to dicker with the price, something you can't do with musician's friend or musicyo, you may gain some money back if you resell it to a private party. If you keep it for 10-20 years, though, it will either increase in value or stay the same unless you do something that will utterly destroy its value. People like buying vintage guitars and paying good money for them. A Gibson, PRS, or even premium Fender is an investment-grade instrument. Even a limited-production instrument, like the Epi Elite series, will increase in value over time. Look at the guitar blue book sometime and you'll see what I mean.

As for the Kramers on MusicYo, if you like guitars made of plywood in Korea, go for it. The one nice thing about the Kramer and ESP Viper is that they have the 24 frets, just like the SG Supreme.

[1Way]

crafty, no way, are you serious? The SG copies from ESP and Kramer are plywood?!? Or just relatively shoddy craftsmanship?

But I have to wonder if you checked out the link. Kramer's semi hollow body seems to me would not be a likely candidate for plywood. Doesn't that sort of Guitar seem the least bit enticing to you, a small sized semi hollow? Here's a link to one of Gibson's versions.

http://www.wwbw.com/Gibson-Custom-CS356-i96784.music

Nice looking ah? And she plays like a dream. Very nice. But I don't have 3 grand to burn on my next guitar.

[1Way]

Ok, so I am getting closer and closer to knowing what I want to do for my next guitar.

Either I will buy

A new or used guitar like an Epiphone SG 61 reissue, or a Gibson SG Standard

or

I will have a custom SG made via Epiphone (I still don't know if that is even possible)

or

have an SG clone built with a focus on being lightweight and yet more sturdy at the more stressed locations such as the neck-to-body joint and the headstock-to-neck joint and the bridge and stop piece area.

Does anyone know of reputable craftsmen who would be able to build such a guitar without it costing way too much money? And it would need to be something that would end up sounding and playing remarkably as good as the aforementioned Epi or Gibson models. I don't mind it being somewhat different, as long as the major features of the build is sufficiently mimicked.

The problems I see for just buying a new guitar, is that you can't easily improve the relatively frail joints, and I still would want to make it somewhat lighter.

The problems I see for building a custom or clone guitar, is that although the guitar may fit my ideas for a lighter and more durable model, it might not sound as good as I would like, and it might cost a small fortune.

[AlGeeEater]

The kramers ARE plywood. I should know

Edited December 9, 2004 by AlGeeEater

[Sindlei]

SGs are already pretty light to begin with, if you're so concerned with need a light guitar for back problems, then maybe you should consider sitting down when playing.

[1Way]

AlGeeEater - Even the Kramer semihollow guitar is made of plywood?

http://www.musicyo.com/product_specs.asp?pf_id=450

Does anyone have experience with this guitar? How does it compare with say an Epi dot or similar?

Sindlei - Sometimes sitting is good, unless you don't have a chair to sit in, or you prefer standing when playing. Working can make my back sore, but I still do that you know. However the clever thing to do is to try to minimize those pains. Work smarter or carry less weight. Hopefully I'll get better by doing stretching and limbering exercises too. Plus I should get enough sleep, eat properly, and above all else, try to play a lighter guitar.

[Kyle Cavanaugh]

Hey guys, only the low end stuff (under $150) they sell under the Kramer name is plywood! That other stuff is on par with Epiphone, and basically is Epiphone. Actually yeah, it's does say for the hollow body that it's 5 ply laminate, but that's needed for the strength of a hollow body, and to be able to form the curve without cracking the wood. The one thing I don't like though, is they, and most companies take a perfectly good Maple top and put a thin Figured Maple veneer on it to make it look expensive and so they can jack the price up way higher even though it only cost them maybe $5 to do so. It totally kills the tone, I know from experience.

Edited December 9, 2004 by Kyle Cavanaugh

[crafty]

That other stuff is on par with Epiphone, and basically is Epiphone.

You're right. Most of the Kramer stuff is made in the same Korean factory that pumps out the Epis. Everything under $200 is made in a sweatshop in Indonesia, too.

Buying a semi-hollow that isn't plywood is tough. Even the Gibsons are really plywood, too. In order to get the arched top, you either have to carve the wood that way or laminate several plies of wood. What I was trying to warn you away from were the cheaper Kramer and Epi solidbodies that ARE plywood. Like everything under $300.

If you are thinking of going semi-hollow, check out the Ibanez Artcore series. No semi under $1200 had ever impressed me until I played the $300 Ibanez. The pickups and electronics are good quality and the neck feels much better. Seems like there's less deadspots and superior woods used in the Ibanez. Ibanez makes some damn fine guitars that will absolutely slay any Epiphone, Kramer, or Schecter. For a solidbody, the AX series will burn up anything short of an ESP or Gibson, too.

BTW, the last Kramer you posted looks alright, but I'd stay away from the one with the Floyd Rose copy on it. It just doesn't look right...

As for your back, I have major scoliosis problems with my back, so guitar weight is an issue for me too. I physically cannot stand to play a Les Paul unless I've properly completed full-body stretching exercises first. You might check into some occupational therapy for stringed musicians. You'd be amazed at what even stretching your legs can do to improve your back stamina before a performance. Even sit-down musicians like cellists have to get therapy for occupational injuries sometimes.

[1Way]

Thanks guys, this forum is great! I didn't think about the laminates used for the arched top.

You know an interesting find I just found out about is an Epiphone Les Paul-ES. Maybe they are rare and not in current production, I don't know, but it's an double F hole Les Paul made by Epiphone, and Harmony Central has rave reviews about it.

crafty, earlier you said

As for the pickups, the Gibson '57 will probably sound very similar to a SD Seth Lover. If you bought a cheaper Epi or the LTD, I'd use the SD pickups because they're a lot less expensive than the Gibsons.

However I just went to Woodwind and Brasswind and they have the 57 classic at 99.99 and the SD Seth Lover at 101.50. So I guess they aren't so different in price after all. Maybe Gibson is higher priced in general. And SD has a nice return for exchange policy, I'm pretty sure Gibson does not have anything like that.

And thanks for the stretching and occupational therapy suggestions too. As to Ibanez, that is interesting. I always liked the look of the artcore but never looked into them much. Are they smaller in size than the usual 335 design?

In terms of recent demo-ing of guitars, I have to say, it would take an awful lot to get me to fall out of faithful adoration of that Epi Elitiest 61' reissue SG. It is just so completely right that it almost hurts just thinking about it and knowing that it is not already mine yet.

[crafty]

Woodwind and Brasswind!!

Every time I drive through South Bend to visit my sister in Cleveland, I always mean to stop there and check it out. I was a trumpet player in another life and I still haven't made it to that store, yet. I took my old Stradivarius out of the case the other day for the first time in 4 years, so maybe I'll have to stop in there next time I head out east.

Anyways, the price on the pickup is surprising. I've found in most of the music stores around here that it seems like the Gibsons are always more expensive. The Seth Lover IS one of SD's premium pickups, so I guess that would explain the price difference. One thing I've never been able to figure out is why Alinco II magnet pickups are always more expensive than Alnico V or Ceramic. Yes, the sound quality is better, but is the magnet really that much tougher to make?

Ibanez Artcores are a little smaller than the ES-355. They seem pretty lightweight to me, but they are definitely a different animal than an SG. Add unpotted pickups like a Seth Lover to the mix, and you'll have feedback for days.

[1Way]

crafty, man o live, being the multi talented musician that you are, you really need to check out the Woodwind and Brasswind sometime, they have it all. I am lucky in that I live very close to the store. I go there about once a month or so, the place is huge. I just mess with the guitar stuff, but they've got stuff for orchestra too, plus drums, basses, PA systems, you name it. They've got a cool glassed in room for guitars and amps and basses is next door, also glassed in, so you can get a bit loud sometimes and not freak out the entire store. Personally, I like plugging into the Marshall JCM800 reissue, it's cool with a 4-12 cab, but not tuns of distortion. It lets you hear the guitar sound great and how it sounds distorted too.

I appreciate the pickup discussion and comments as I have much to learn. And I have to admit that although I tend to like the old style PAF type pickup, I would check out EMG's active stuff prior to making my purchase. Oh ya, I forgot that the Seth Lover is unpotted, bummer, I think I would like a potted pickup better... I wonder how hard it would be for me to pot a pickup myself? Listening to the Gibson 57's on that SG supreme was great, they were impressive, but to my ears they were a bit almost too,,, something. It was great on the low end, but the high end was a bit too much, ultra very super crisp and tight. "Crisp" is the one word that stands out in my head the most for that pickup, that and almost too much "highs". If I got that pickup I believe I would be tempted to adjust the tone knob down somewhat on my guitar, an idea that just rubs me wrong, more likely I would EQ the signal with a 7 band stomp box to tame the high end a bit. Compared to the other Gibson pickups, the 57's also seemed to be the hottest/loudest pickup.

The review at "legendarytones" dot com

http://www.legendarytones.com/humbpus1.htm

said that the 57's were the least "PAF" sounding of the group, but were still a great pickup. They also had high reviews on the Seth Lover and said that even though it is unpotted, it did not give problems with out of control feedback, but the unpotted Gibson burstbucker was out of control with feedback squeals, but Gibson said that subsequent burstbuckers would be wax potted. Also another SD I would consider is the Antiquity Humbucker, he was noticeably impressed with that pickup, and the SD Seth Lover seemed a close second to it.

I have an 85' Gibson Explorer 425, it has three pickups in it, a duel HB and two SC's. I'm wondering how I would tell how many pickup wires I would need if I wanted to replace the less than impressive bridge position humbucker (it's open faced in black and six screw/poles per side). I've never changed a pickup before. I believe that I would have to remove the front face pickup bracket (it has no pickguard) and then remove the pickup or just dislodge it enough to determine how many wires it is. That may be the only thing I can afford before Christmas since I haven't sold my Gibson and PA monitors yet.

Edited December 11, 2004 by 1Way

[crafty]

That doesn't surprise me that the '57 sounds a little bright to you. Alnico II pickups tend to have very good high-end frequency response. You can either adjust the tone a little or use Alnico V pickups for a bit darker sound and higher output.

As for the number of wires for the replacement pickup, most aftermarket pickups from SD and DiMarzio are going to usually have four wires. Unless you want to use a coil-split switch, you usually wind up soldering two of the wires together and just hooking up one hot and one ground wire to the system. On SD pickups, the red and white wires are soldered together and green goes to ground, black is hot. I can't remember what the DiMarzio combo is, but you get the idea. They'll come with instructions, anyway. On the SD's, to split the coils you just solder the red and white wires together to the same pole on a switch with the other pole on the switch grounded. Switch off, full humbucking, switch on, coil split.

[1Way]

I'm heading out to Guitar Center to see what they will give me for my trade, my Gibson Explorer 425 for an Epiphone Elitist SG 61' reissue. I hope they do me right, however one GC acted like it's almost worthless. But this time, and at a different GC, I am buying one of their guitars, and the guy I was talking to seems like a decent guy, so maybe they'll treat me better this time... I would be so jazzed to bring home such a sweet ax. Gotta blast.