!!METAL MATT!! Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Well I need to learn to do a scuff joint for doing a headstock but I have no idea how it is done some pic's would realy help, also a list of the types of tools needed to do a scuff joint would help this will be my first neck so any related info would be nice Thanks for any help !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Headen Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Do you mean scarf joint? I'm not sure what you're asking if that's not what you mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Hit the search button, type in "scarf joint" and you will find tons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted February 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Well if that's the joint used for doing an angled Headstock than that's the one i need! this realy shows how much I know about building necks HAHA I guess now if I spell it right I may get a bit more info hay !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Pardon me for asking (I asked once before in another thread and never got an answer), but.... ...why do a scarf joint at all? If you're going for an angled headstock, why not just build a 3-piece laminated neck? Get yourself some nice flat wide boards, trace out the profile of the neck including the angled headstock, then cut & glue and go to work on it. Glue on some "ears" for the headstock width, & toss on a headstock veneer if you need it. I could be missing something, but I cannot for the life of me see the wisdom behind a scarf joint (unless it is to repair a broken headstock). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 You got two answers Erik - maybe you missed it? http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...pic=13587&st=0# Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgmorg Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Grain runout is the biggest issue in my mind. Cutting an angled head out of the same piece of wood as the neck makes it so the grain cuts across the headstock at an angle. ( looking at it from the side ) This makes it much easier to break. Matt, will you be scarf sanding between the sealer coats? From what I've seen of your work here, I believe you will do just fine building a neck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 (edited) Thanks Setch...I'd lost track of that thread. I can certainly see the wisdom of giving the customer what he/she wants...just seems to me that if I wanted a really clean-looking headstock, I'd be bugged by having a joint right at the end of my neck. I guess that's what bugs me about it anyway, but hey...it's not my guitar. I can also see that you do end up using more wood when laminating, assuming you're cutting everything from 4/4 stock. I'm not producing so many guitars that I'm super picky about wood conservation (although on the one laminated bass neck I've made, I did use the remaining board feet to make two more laminated bass neck blanks). Grain runout is presumably not an issue in a laminated neck, if you orient the laminates properly. To each his own. Edited February 20, 2005 by erikbojerik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Headen Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 How would the grain runout not be a problem with a laminated neck? Most people that I've seen add headstock veneers so you can't even tell it's scarfed. That or paint it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 It seems to me that if you reverse the grain orientation of the laminates (and/or have a center lam of different wood) then yeah the grain still runs that way, but at all different angles. So yeah it would affect the appearance of the headstock, but it would still be stronger than if you hewed the whole thing out of a single piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 i notice that neither of my new gibsons has a scarf joint. i doubt i will ever build a neck with a scarf joint...maple and mahogany are just too easy to come by around here in the proper sizes...and since i always do laminated necks ,they end up very stiff.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Matt, here are a couple of extra links that may help out. method 1 link 2 Where the joint is located seems to be a matter of preference. I couldn't say if one way is better than the other. I found a quick quote from Neil on the subject of to scarf or not to scarf. Here we go. Someone stating that one piece necks bow forward because they are one piece. Bull pucky. The "scarf joint or luthier's joint" is very strong, however, after seeing and working with thousands of BC Rich guitars over the years, I see no indication that a one piece neck is any less viable than a neck with a "scarf joint". They will both work very well. Especially if you laminate your blank vertically. Frankly, I don't use the scarf joint because I don't like the way it looks. That is the only reason. So, don't be afraid to use a neck that is cut from one piece, or one laminated piece. The main reason that Jackson uses a scarf joint is because it's far easier to get wood the right size, and you use less wood to do it. (cost effective). It's also easier to get a plank of "flat sawn" wood and laminated it vertically to get a "laminated quarter sawn" neck blank than it is to find a large piece of quarter sawn maple to make one piece quarter sawn necks out of. That's one of the reasons we use the vertical laminated neck blanks. The wood is easier to get and the laminated neck is stronger. (Also, cost effective). Personally I scarf some of the time, usually if it's not a neck thru. Neck thru I always usually wind up with flatsawn laminates on edge (effectivly quartersawn) so I really don't even think about grain runout. If I had a one piece flat sawn board I could see how runnout would be something to conscider. The #1 thing I really focus on when I do a scarf is to get the joint surfaces mated as close as possible. When I clamp the joint I really wanna make sure the pressure is even. I use shims with a bunch of string rapped around them "snug", then I tap the shims in to put the squeeze on it. Good luck, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Headen Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 I always see the same style of scarf joints, but I'm reading through the Cumpiano book and he laminates the scarf on the back of the neck. It's kind of hard to describe without a diagram. It seems like that kind of joint would be more attractive, because you could cover it with veneers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted February 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Well would grain runout be such a problem if the angle of the headstock was not as extrem as A 13 Degree headstock? maybe more like a 10 or 11 Degree headstock? !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Matt, If I understand correctly, the issue with runnout is a product of flatsawn wood and a 1 piece neck w/no scarf joint. Is this what you are doing? If so then the angle and how bad the runout would be would really depend on the grain of the wood. If you are doing a scarf joint (even w/flatsawn wood)don't worry about it, because it should improve the strength. Peace, I am sure you will build a fine neck. Your making sure you understand what you are doing so you don't build a sloppy neck. Credit to you for due dilligence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted February 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Matt, If I understand correctly, the issue with runnout is a product of flatsawn wood and a 1 piece neck w/no scarf joint. Is this what you are doing? If so then the angle and how bad the runout would be would really depend on the grain of the wood. If you are doing a scarf joint (even w/flatsawn wood)don't worry about it, because it should improve the strength. Peace, I am sure you will build a fine neck. Your making sure you understand what you are doing so you don't build a sloppy neck. Credit to you for due dilligence. ← Well Iam thinking of trying both I have all ready started on the one piece neck but I would like to learn all I can about both !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 You are doing a one piece neck, w/no scarf joint. Is the piece you are using flat sawn? If so draw lines down the side of the wood at the angle you plan on using. You will see how the grain intersects the angle, each time it does that is Runout. How much that will effect strength???? I dunno. It is a much more dramatic runnout than you would see without an angle. In this type of situation you can imagine by cutting a piece off the end and scarfing you would have much less runout. Peace, Mattsta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted February 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Well I dont think it's flat sawn but what do you think the grain seem's to go from side to side hear's a few pics http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...15entry172383 !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Matt, I see the runnout but I don't think it would make sense to stop. That wood is not perfectly flatsawn and the grain seems to kinda curl around a bit. I guess its not desirable but I doubt its gonna break because of it. Maybe go a bit heavy on the volute as thats the weakest link anyway, if your worried about it. Please let one of the other guys around here who are smarter than me confirm all that. Man that style of neck building is almost exactly what I do for neck thru (obviously I have the body wood also). If ya wanna see what I do on the neck thru I have pics on my Yahoo album. P.S. Keep that block square and true so you don't cut the headstock at a twisted angle. Not that twisted is all that bad, I've been kinda twisted for years. You will need it spot on though. My Yahoo Album Lookin good mister! Keep those progress shots coming!!! Rich Posted this reply to the other thread by accident, sorry. My Yahoo Album Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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