Questions For Those Who've Used Duplicolor Mirage

[ubersam]

I just finished applying a 3 pass coat of the black base coat, on top of a smooth black primer. I noticed that there are a couple, or so, tiny specks that landed on the paint. Since I'll be laying another layer of base coat, I figure it should be o.k. to wet sand the first layer of black base coat. Here is where I'm undecided, I've read someone giving a tip to not sand the base coat before applying the mid coat. In your experience with Duplicolor Mirage, is it better to leave the base coat as is? Imperfections and all. Or should it be prepped, wet sanded, before the mid coat. I know the mid coat shouldn't be sanded at all.

The last part, the clear coat, Would it be o.k. to wet sand between coats? How abou for the final sanding, rubbing and polishing, do I have to wait until the clear coat is fully cured? Does it really take weeks to cure?

Thanks.

Edited May 24, 2005 by ubersam

[frank falbo]

Definitely sand the base coat. If you don't, then any raised specks will become little black dots once you finally sand. The black basecoat should be perfect. BUT there's no need to wetsand. Just dry sand with 400-600 and go from there. There's no reason to add water at this stage. If you're lucky and the last base coat is perfect, then don't sand it. It's better to put the mid coat right over the base coat as it dried naturally. But it's more essential you have a smooth surface.

I sanded once during the mid coats, because subsequent coats re-flow the preceding coats. But it's a good idea not to sand the mid coat. Then wait until you get a good build out of the clear before you wetsand (or drysand) it between coats. You don't want the sanding to penetrate the clear and start leveling the mid coat. You can buff early on in the cure time, because it's really easy to get a good buff while it's still a little soft. But if you do, you'll be re-buffing it later anyway because of the shrinkage. It really takes forever to cure, and it's really never cured. It's always softer than a good pro-grade nitro finish.

[Maiden69]

Sand the base coat until baby butt smooth, then add one dusted coat of black before the mirage paint so it have the dull color that the base have instead of sanding tinny scratches.

Don't sand the mid coat, it is a waste of time. And dust the coats too, don't lay them too thick as the little flakes in the paint will lay flat and minimize the color changing.

Once you are done, start your clear slowly and once again dust the coats, if you lay it too thick, it WILL alter the color changing ability because it will burn thru the mirage coat and lay the flakes down.

Createx

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/Maiden69/DSC01026.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/Maiden69/DSC01028.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/Maiden69/DSC01040.jpg

This wonderfull purple color dissapeared after the clear coats, I think it had to do that this was the 1st time I used it and I did layed the clear too wet on the 2 and 3 coat, I could still see it after the 1st 3 dusted passes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/Maiden69/DSC01005.jpg

And as Frank mentioned, this finish takes forever to cure. So take it easy, I buffed mine 2 months after finished, and it will still get marked if touched too hard. I would suggest you try with another clear brand, but I don't know which will be compatible.

Another option is , they have a chameleon base and you can finish it with DEFT or any nitro based paint since it is water based and dries in a few hours. I used the pearl turquoise on this guitar, and cleared with DEFT with no problem, I haven't seen their chameleon paint, but I would try it to check, it's cheap, I got the pearl for $3 a 2oz bottle.

[ubersam]

Thanks for the tips guys. I was under the impression that the Dupli Mirage Top Coat was of the automotive kind, ie. durable, hard. Now it sounds like it is not. Would the Dupli Truck & SUV clear coat be the same or is it better. I have a can of the stuff.

Here is a theoretical: If I went ahead with the Dupli Mirage top coat and found it's hardness/durability unacceptable, would laying a harder curing clear over that improve things?

Oh, do you have any tips on prepping the mid coat before laying down additional coats or laying down the clear? Like maybe running a tack cloth lightly over the surface?

Edited May 25, 2005 by ubersam

[Maiden69]

Thanks for the tips guys. I was under the impression that the Dupli Mirage Top Coat was of the automotive kind, ie. durable, hard. Now it sounds like it is not. Would the Dupli Truck & SUV clear coat be the same or is it better. I have a can of the stuff.

It's the same stuff, all duplicolor paint are the same. If you have access to paint guns and a spray booth you can use House of Kolor Kameleon, or ALSA Corp SpectraFX or Mystic paints.

http://alsacorp.com/products/spectrafx/spe...fx_prodinfo.htm

http://alsacorp.com/products/metalmorphis/metal_prodinfo.htm

Here is a theoretical: If I went ahead with the Dupli Mirage top coat and found it's hardness/durability unacceptable, would laying a harder curing clear over that improve things?

I have never tried this, but I think you can as long as the mirage color is completely cured, you could take it to an automotive finisher and have them spray the clear over it.

Oh, do you have any tips on prepping the mid coat before laying down additional coats or laying down the clear? Like maybe running a tack cloth lightly over the surface?

←

you don't prep the mid coat, if you sand it, you ruin the color shifting properties.

[Devon Headen]

If you spray a harder finish over a softer one, the soft one will continue to shrink, and it will crack the cured topcoat.

[Maiden69]

Devon the mirage paint is a bit different from their clear, it dries kinda fast, I have some left here, and I will be spraying some over the weekend if it stop raining and try to top it with DEFT. I will post if it works, but I got no camera for pics.

If not the createx is a good choice, Jeremy used it on his paining tutorial and cleared it with 2 part poly, also there is the autoair one that is used by a lot of airbrush artists.

[Devon Headen]

But what I'm saying is that if the dupli takes so long to completely cure, it's still gonna be shrinking ever so slightly. If the topcoat doesn't have much flex (ie completely cured) and the undercoat clear is still curing, it stands to reason that the top harder coat will get cracks. I've never tried so I'm not sure, but that's what I would guess would happen. Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying?

[Maiden69]

I think for experience that the one that takes for ever to cure is the top coat. I was able to mask the lines on this one an hour after I prayed the mirage on this one

and the tape came out clean. So I think that the problem with the mirage is the top coat. The black base is a primer type paint, so it cures fast, and the mirage has to be different than the clear because it dries fast.

The dupli clear you can't even touch an hour after painted.

I don't know if you understand it this time, but I think that it will work with the 2 part poly.

[Devon Headen]

But he was talking about using the Mirage topcoat, then if it didn't get hard fast enough, spray a faster drying topcoat over that. He's not talking about just using the midcoat then topping it with something else.

[ubersam]

But he was talking about using the Mirage topcoat, then if it didn't get hard fast enough, spray a faster drying topcoat over that. He's not talking about just using the midcoat then topping it with something else.

←

That's pretty much what I was asking. I never really thought that the mirage clear would continue to shrink as it cured. It makes sense that laying a faster/harder curing clear on top of that would have adverse effects. Would 2 part poly be harder then? What is 2 part poly anyway, and does it come in a spraycan?

[Maiden69]

Nope 2 part poly doesn't come in cans, it is the one that automotive finishers use. You need a gun and compressor, paint booth and respirator in order to use it safely.

Sorry Devon I guess that I misunderstand what he was saying, I thought that he was asking if he could use a harder clear over the mirage mid coat...

Well I guess that this pic from AFter Forever shows that the DEFT doesn't react to the mirage, so go ahead and throw away the duplicolor top coat and use the DEFT.

[ubersam]

O.k., everything was doing well until, cheet!!! the 5th coat of clear [kinda heavy] looked like it re-flowed the midcoat a tiny bit. Now there is a streak that looks a little off. I'll try to get a pic of the area. Anyway, I'm hoping that it's not a re-flow and it's just the clear, and that it can be sanded away. If not, what would you all suggest for a spot repair. I was thinking of sanding the streak down to the base coat, masking off the surrounding areas, laying down he base-mid-top just on the area. Would this blend in or would the fixed area stick out?

Thanks.

[Maiden69]

Mirage coat can not be spot repaired, you have to re-do. I warned you about this in my post.

Once you are done, start your clear slowly and once again dust the coats, if you lay it too thick, it WILL alter the color changing ability because it will burn thru the mirage coat and lay the flakes down.

[frank falbo]

That's true, he did warn you. You can sand back to the mid coat and try dusting the area over to hide it a little. But it will always be visible. If the clear ran, I can guarantee it re-flowed the mid coat and pulled it too. I had that happen in one little area on my Radius, luckily it was right at the tip of the bass cutaway, and the strap button basically hid the whole thing.

[ubersam]

Well, after the about the 3rd or 4th dusted coat, I thought the clear would be thick enough to handle a heavier coat. I guess I was wrong, and I have bad technique (sprayed in one area a bit too long).

But this just sucks I was checking out the blemish and I dug my nail into the finish right above the bridge p-up cavity. Well, I'll be gone till next weekend. Maybe I'll try to do a spot repair on the damaged areas when I get back. If I don't like the result, I'll just have to re-do.

[frank falbo]

Here's one of my duplicolor guitars, just for fun. I never got any pics of it until now. So now I'm all "picture drunk" and I'll probably be posting them everywhere.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/gpe...nk/DSCF0010.jpg

The rest of the pics are here, and they show all the different colors of the finish. The other guitar is my lap steel 7-string. I'll probably go crazy posting pics of that one too.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v655/gpenguins/Frank/

I'm off to GregP's lap steel post.....

[westhemann]

the picture was too big,so i converted it to a link

[ubersam]

Here's one of my duplicolor guitars, just for fun.

←

Nice! Did you use the clear that came with the kit? I'm in the process of re-doing the whole guitar. I experimented with doing a spot repair on the nail mark and failed miserably. The area looked worse after the attempt. So, going by Maiden's tip, I stripped the guitar back down to bare wood. This time around I used epoxy for filling the grains. Hopefully I won't need to use as much primer as I did in my first attempt.

[frank falbo]

I did use their clear. It was my first duplicolor guitar, and I just wanted to avoid any compatibility issues. It sucks, and it's soft, but because of that, it buffed really easily. So you can look at it either way I guess. Since then I've just put the clear aside, and I use it now on pedals, or truss rod covers, etc. I'm real easy on my guitars, so the hardness wasn't an issue for me.

[ubersam]

I did use their clear. It was my first duplicolor guitar, and I just wanted to avoid any compatibility issues. It sucks, and it's soft, but because of that, it buffed really easily. So you can look at it either way I guess.  Since then I've just put the clear aside, and I use it now on pedals, or truss rod covers, etc. I'm real easy on my guitars, so the hardness wasn't an issue for me.

←

So, what clear are you using now? I thought about using Deft since it was suggested as a better alternative to Dupli's clear. But it is nitro laquer, so I'm not sure how that would workout over acrylic laquer over time. Anyway, I still have a long way to go. I'm still sanding off the excess epoxy.

[Maiden69]

A guy did it here a few days ago and it worked. I tried it at the house and had no problem with it. The mirage is not the same as the clear, I think it is chemicaly different because it doesn't react bad with DEFT

[ubersam]

A guy did it here a few days ago and it worked.  I tried it at the house and had no problem with it.  The mirage is not the same as the clear, I think it is chemicaly different because it doesn't react bad with DEFT

←

I remember seeing that guitar. He even used the Dupli Sandable Primer instead of the base coat. One reservertion I have with the Deft clear is that it is Nitro Laquer and the Dupli/Mirage mid coat _is_ Acrylic Laquer. I have no doubt it works fine in the intermediate, it's the long term effects that I have doubts about. I seem to remember reading something about not using Arcylic and Nitro on top of each other, in that it creates a problem in the long run.

[Maiden69]

I know that there are a few threads on not using them together, but I just did that a few days ago and it worked fine. I think that the mirage coat dries very quick, just like the waterbased createx paints, and it doesn't react to the Deft. This is the main reason why not to mix them, because the acrylic takes longer to dry and if you top it with nitro it will shrink it creating cracks.

[frank falbo]

So, what clear are you using now? I thought about using Deft since it was suggested as a better alternative to Dupli's clear. But it is nitro laquer, so I'm not sure how that would workout over acrylic laquer over time.

I used Deft once and it's fine. Actually I used it over the purple/green just like that dime guitar in Maiden's earlier thread. But even though it's okay, I always felt that since the Duplicolor clear was able to re-flow the mirage coat (as you found out) that I'd rather play it safe and go with an automotive clear. I figure there's some reason why they sell it with an acrylic. Maybe its just economics. So now I have my auto guy do automotive grade clear acrylic. I don't know what he uses. He probably changes brands anyway. If you do a search, Jeremy and others have given some names of good automotive acrylic clear in rattle cans. That's a good place to start. But for everything else lately I've been using Deft and I can't complain. For a consumer nitro it's pretty good.

Hey now that I think about it, maybe because Deft is nitro, you won't have the same flow/sag problems with the mid coat. Whatever you do, have fun and remember don't start sanding back until you get a good clear built up over that mid coat.