Selling Guitars On Ebay

[rhoads56]

Perry

Again your jumping on me about not running before I walk, but please give me some credit, i'm just sounding out idea's and creating a discussion, this is after all a discussion forum. I'm totally clued up about what i'm going to do, and totally realistic. I'm thinking of years down the line and just seeing what experiences other have. But let me itteriate that I do appreciate the sentiment, so it's all good.

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Not jumping on you, just sick of seeing people talking about making careers from something they have never even tried doing as a hobby first. Damn, there are two of you on the forum RIGHT NOW. Make a guitar. Stop talking about it.

Would you have considered starting your IT business BEFORE you had ever even touched a computer for the first time?? Same thing.

[Drak]

Again your jumping on me about not running before I walk, but please give me some credit, i'm just sounding out idea's and creating a discussion, this is after all a discussion forum. I'm totally clued up about what i'm going to do, and totally realistic. I'm thinking of years down the line and just seeing what experiences other have. But let me itteriate that I do appreciate the sentiment, so it's all good.

Without being overly negative about it (but 100% completely realistic about it), I agree with Perry's sentiments.

It's a fun question, but that's about as far as it goes 99.9% of the time.

I have seen SCORES of people ask this same question so many times it has become almost nauseating by now.

You wanna know why it's nauseating? Because -none- of them -ever- do it or go thru with it. -Ever-. All they do is talk and dream and ponder and BS, they -never- follow thru with -any- of it. So you'll have to forgive us, it's just the reality of the thing. And every single one is going to be the one who's gonna do it, they're gonna be different than all the rest. Ya buddy, heard it before.

Matter of fact, you want to know something funny?

The guys who I've seen who have come here and started from scratch, the ones who DO actually show follow thru and determination and progress and dogged persistence, the guys who you see inching themselves forward step by methodical step, asking and learning, learning and asking, the guys who actually build guitars to completion, whether they be partial builds, retro-builds, whatever, but at least they finished them and moved on to better things...those guys -never ask this question-, and they are the ones probably the most qualified to actually pursue it if that's what they wanted.

So whenever I see someone asking this kind of question, I silently tell myself there is one guy who will probably never finish even one guitar, because that's what I've seen happen over and over again. It's just the truth, there's no judgementalism in it, it's just a basic raw fact. Big big difference between pipedreaming and learning all the different woodworking traits it takes to build yourself a really nice top shelf guitar.

Big chasm there. Again, a FUN question, but that's about all it ever works out to be.

If they actually finish their first guitar and are still on the forum to show it I consider it near-amazing, so take Perry's comments in context with what he (and I, and many others here) ...have seen. It's not -you- per se, but it's the dozens before you who all ask the very same thing and never did anything with it, never even finished building one single steenkin' guitar, but if you listened to them talk they were going to be the next Paul Reed Smith if you bother listening to them.

Good luck and have fun with it, -then- see where it takes you.

[rhoads56]

Big big difference between pipedreaming and learning all the different woodworking traits it takes to build yourself a really nice top shelf guitar.

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Yup, how many years woodworking experience do YOU (you = anyone) have??? I had 12 years of cabinet making, and fine furniture experience, that was my career. You've gotta learn ALLLLLL that stuff first.

DRAK, how many guitars did you build before you considered you might be at a sellable level??

[Drak]

DRAK, how many guitars did you build before you considered you might be at a sellable level??

11 years now, still not there yet.

I edited out this post, I think the first one covers everything well enough.

[rhoads56]

I wanted to add one more thing that I have noticed with questions like this in the past.

The guys who consider doing this as a business before they ever get one guitar finished, they usually share a common trait, and that is the inability to suck in their egos and be humble, to ask questions and learn from scratch how to do it.

Their heads are already too big to get thru the door and they don't even know the first thing about it yet. bla bla bla

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Yup, do a search for LITCHFIELD as a prime example.

Drak, answer my questions damnit

[Gemleggat]

I have spent about £400 on tools so far and about £200 on wood, fret wire, pups, machine heads etc and all i have got to show for it so far is 3 blocks of wood and finished fretboard. Its a very steep learning curve with pitfalls and sore heads. I have spent far more time thinking, drawing stuff, sourcing stuff and making jigs than anything else so far. I'm sure once i get this first build done with i will make the second in a 1/4 of the time and it will cost me about 1/4 of the $ this one has. Learn Learn Learn. I think you are so far ahead of yourself you are almost getting behind! Good luck with your first build, what you should only be thinking about.

[Drak]

I did.

And I wasn't going to mention Litch, because I've seen many many guys pull it besides him, he was the easy answer to run to, but there are many others.

Oh well, I hope you have a rack of fun building guitars, I know I do, I absolutely love it.

But my reasons are more for the freedom of it all, to create whatever custom instrument I want to build this week, and revel in the freedom of pure creation, there is, and never will be, any dollar figure behind anything I build, just the love of building and playing guitars, I keep it pretty pure and straightforward, keeps me happy, and I am always fully aware of why I'm doing it.

[Guitar_Brent]

i just spent 350 canadain dollars on the parts and the wood for my guitar. i work at a cabinet shop, so i don't pay for tools. and i think i might get someone to finish for me, i think the cost of finishing will be more then $300, plus i don't know what i'm doing and would hate to mess it up and have to spend more on it. but i really want to finish it myself, just to say i did.

but all in all i'm looking at say 600 - 800 Canadian after all is said and done (with out a hardcase)

[Mickguard]

plus i don't know what i'm doing and would hate to mess it up and have to spend more on it.  but i really want to finish it myself, just to say i did.

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Yeah, you have to do the finish yourself...otherwise it won't feel right...the nice part about finishing though is that if/when you mess up, you have the option of sanding it off and doing it again.

Seems like a lot of people here do just that (including the pros--especially the pros!).

For me, doing the finish is the most fun part...I just love the way it transforms what is still basically a block of wood into a guitar...

Oh yeah, I've spend a bit on tools too, but I don't count that toward the cost of the guitars because they're going to be useful for years for other projects I'll be working on.

On the other hand, I paid for all my new tools with the sale of one of my guitars (a Gibson'). But then, all of my gear gets paid for by the sale of gear I no longer use--I call it 'churn'...

[i-j-c]

Byron, don't retort in anger just in case you were thinking about it!

Read carefully what Perry and Drak have said - they are actually giving you 100% good advice. It may appear at first reading harsh, but read it again a few times if you think it is harsh - it's not, it really is good advice.

Think of it another way - in another post someone mentioned about a luthier school - the guy charges 3000 for two weeks. Now lat's say he was doing that 52 weeks of the year (unlikely but for arguments sake) - his income from that is 78000 p/a. Now equate that to making a guitar:

1. You would have to churn out 1 guitar every two weeks and sell it to make 78000 p/a. Now take off your overheads and cost of materials (and we'll underestimate for this purpose) at 75% - that leaves net income of 25% - 19500 before taxes. Take off another 30% for tax and ni that leaves: 13650 divide that by 12 months leaves 1137. Now given that in that course it was an 11 hour day - even at five days a week only that is equivalent to just over 1 ($ or £) per hour..!!

2. That is also on the basis of selling at 3k...if you sold at 1.5k..you would either halve all those numbers above..or churn out double with increased overhead / material cost.

3. That is on the basis also of 'right first time'...and how many times can you say that. If you don't get it right first time...then reduce the numbers again..

4. You have a day job too...there are only 24 hours in a day, you have to sleep eat whatever....

Now, you may say, it'll only be supplemental - fine. But the point Perry and Drak are saying is that don't even go there...give that future dream not one moment thought...it's a waste of time. What will come, will come..really, don't even think about...that!

And that's the other point(s) they are making..concentrate first on earning your living to pay your bills to pay for material to provide you time to work on your hobby. The other point being - concentrate solely on just learning to make guitars..then make your next one better, then better again...

If you read carefully what they say, they are not being nasty or anything...they are not being judgemental..they are offering you help (ask away said Perry) in guiding you to simply..just learn to build...and don't even think about 'down the line' - it's not even a discussion topic (you'll notice there are no specific boards for discussing that..and for very good reason)..

The bitterest pill to swallow, is often the one with 'advice' written on it..

Best Regards,

Ian

[Marzocchi705]

As an Ebay buyer mainly, I say that I generally don't trust custom stuff built by other people, unless its just parts. A body, or a neck, but not a whole guitar, especially when we are talking big prices (£500 upwards). Atm though can't really buy any guitars, saving for a (don't kill me) electric drumkit, which should dent my pocket a good £2000-£3000! On that note, anyone wanna buy my acoustic double bass drumkit?! lol.

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How much?

[ByronBlack]

[rhoads56]

explain how we have got you wrong???

YOU HAVE ZERO EXPERIENCE, and you have stated that you are going to start selling guitars STRAIGHT AWAY.

[ByronBlack]

explain how we have got you wrong???

YOU HAVE ZERO EXPERIENCE, and you have stated that you are going to start selling guitars STRAIGHT AWAY.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[rhoads56]

When I start building my guitars, i'm going to build two at a time (one for me, and one to sell to cover the cost), have any of you had any success in selling guitars on ebay, and if so how do you go about pricing them?

If you have had any success in selling them elsewhere other than ebay, I would be interested in hearing what you did.

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THERE IT IS BLOKE, plain as day to me....

but yeah, you should go away and make some wood dust. Make drak and I proud!!

Edited August 9, 2005 by rhoads56

[Drak]

When I start building my guitars, i'm going to build two at a time (one for me, and one to sell to cover the cost), have any of you had any success in selling guitars on ebay, and if so how do you go about pricing them?

OK, in case I did overshoot your mark, I went back and reread your post.

Upon rereading, I think Stew would be your guy to talk to. He seems to have the most practical advice and hands-on experience on selling home-brewed guitars on eBay.

[ByronBlack]

Perry, in all fairness mate I didn't say 'straight away', and I did clarify in a post further down after the one you quoted - but it's no point arguing, I understand the points you and drak are making, and I dont want to get on a downer with you guy's because i've already learnt a ton of usefull information since being on here.

I will indeed go create some dust, unfortunatly just waiting on wood and hardware at the moment, soon as i got anything to show, i'll post it in the progress forum.

PS Did you see the last test match?

[rhoads56]

Perry, in all fairness mate I didn't say 'straight away', and I did clarify in a post further down after the one you quoted

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right you are. missed that one.

PS Did you see the last test match?

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???? i dont watch any sports.

[Stew]

These comments bug me. Who are you two to say that everybody has to pay their dues YOUR way? So you're saying that in order for me to correctly build a high quality guitar I must go back to the "wax on, wax off" (Karate Kid training reference) stage?

I have never built furniture or cabinets, does that make me some idiot who's chasing some pipe dream? I've built 12 guitars now and now your telling me I need to go back in order to be legit? Ok so that was my initial reaction. It's just that those comments sounded kind of builder snobbish. My total appology if I was wrong in that assumption. Let me try to be a leison betweem Byron and Drak/Perry:

Byron, I think what Drak and Perry were trying to tell you, is make the painting first before you decide where to hang it. See if it's decent enough and spot on to be considered the level of selling. If I had screwed up on my first two, and I did, you may either go back and start over or use for firewood (unfinished of course).

Like Drak, I'm mostly build for therapy. There is nothing like using your hands to create something that you love. I've been a guitar player for 25 years and I had never dreamed of building my own guitar before. I'll never buy a guitar from a music store ever again. Why would I when I can make anything I want?

I'm taking this the same way Bryon is.....well..at least initially. I took this as discouraging info. I'm sure glad I never visited this site when I was first starting out. But now that I've built a few, I can sort of see where Drak and Perry are coming from. Dream that dream from afar, but dream it hard after you've completed some guitars on a consistent level. You may get lucky on your first, and you may get unlucky on your 5th. Ebay might be a place to check if there is a demand for your style of guitars. Even though I didn't sell the guitar all the time, I did get lots of email expressing interest. That's when you know you might be onto something.

Byron, I'm assuming this is your first guitar project? I don't think I was clear about that and I think is the assumption from everybody.

After the first two, I was hooked. I have now built about 12 guitars and thanks to a certain Fender Masterbuilder, I got the thumbs up on every one of them. He's helped me with fret work, set up tips, finishing skills, what to keep an eye on, how scale has an affect, different woods and how they react in relation, building templates, what to look for in particular tools, what to stay away from, what not to try, what finishes are not compatible, how to make invisible repairs if you ding or sand through while finishing.

I sucked at wood shop in high school, but for some reason, building guitars is easy for me. I took to it right away. I'm very **** and detail addicted. This month's GOTM was the first time I choose my own wood, cut and glued up. That went well. Now I want to get more complex.

Realistically I doubt I'd make an exclusive career at this. I may suppliment my income as a side small business. But I don't see but a small handfull of builders getting rich off making guitars.

You go ByronBlack, build your two guitars because if this is your first guitar, you'll be sure to build plenty more after. Each guitar I sell just pays for the parts for my next guitar. Don't expect to be an overnight success, and don't plan on being the next PRS. Just build to the standard that you'd want in a guitar. Get educated, get the right tools, and have plenty of scrap wood around to test first before doing the real thing. That goes for finishing as well.

Recap:

1. build a guitar

2. see #1

3. try to sell on ebay, use cost as reserve, see if you get interest

4. if sold, tell owner to leave feedback on Harmony Central

5. see #1

6. see #1

7. see #3

8. see #4

If you have generated some interest by now, meaning more than 12 emails that ask, "what else have you got"?, THEN start thinking about a business. And even then don't expect too much. It's a very saturated market.

(Ok, now I expect to be rained on by the fury)

[Drak]

Who are you two to say that everybody has to pay their dues YOUR way?

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I never said that, find the quote where I said anything like that. AAMOF, I never say things like that, I am a true believer in each person finding their own path.

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So you're saying that in order for me to correctly build a high quality guitar I must go back to the "wax on, wax off" (Karate Kid training reference) stage?

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No, I didn't say that either, and I'm totally baffled by why you would think I said that. I referenced you because of the exact reasons I stated, I think you have more experience with what he asked than anyone else here, I thought that was a compliment, obviously not taken that way.

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I have never built furniture or cabinets, does that make me some idiot who's chasing some pipe dream? I've built 12 guitars now and now your telling me I need to go back in order to be legit?

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No, never said or implied that at all. Of anyone here that I am aware of, you have the exact information he needs, more than I do, more than Perry does. I think you took something the wrong way.

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Ok so that was my initial reaction. It's just that those comments sounded kind of builder snobbish. My total appology if I was wrong in that assumption.

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I am the furthest person from a snob you will ever talk to, maybe you were talking more of Perry than me, I don't really know, but I am very TRUTHFUL and HONEST, even sometimes BRUTALLY honest, and I HAVE seen dozens and dozens of people ask this same question, almost all of them with NO guitars under their belt yet, so I do stand by everything I did actually say, it is all true.

[rhoads56]

Stew, no one is saying that anyone needs to do it our way, we are just sick and tired of people who havent built a SINGLE guitar, coming in here and start planning to make a living from it. Case in point, this week alone, "Hughes" and "Byronblack". IT IS very difficult to make a living from, and encouraging people to do so is totally wrong, if they havent ever built one. I am the ONLY electric guitar maker in my state, with a population of more than 2 million people (AND half my sales are from the USA), yet I CANT make a living from making guitars alone.... not even close to it. And, im sure you'll agree, ive paid my dues, and i make a quality product.

We have seen how resourceful someone with no clue can be, when he has a dream to be a full time luthier, but without the skills (again, ref: litchfield). How is some total newb (and i use that term with affection) going to cut it???

Selling "practise" runs on ebay CAN AND WILL come back to bite you on the butt if they arent 110% perfect. When and if you do ever start to make it in this profession, you can be damn sure someone who holds your earlier work will use your name to sell it again.... do you want to risk that, with something that isnt quite up to scratch???

By all means, have a dream... i did. But for gods sake be realistic, and get some guitars made before you plan out a pipe dream. There is a reason there is a very small number of guitar makers.... you need to work out why that is, and it wont be from making one instrument (or in this case.... planning to make one).

You're welcome to prove me wrong, no one else has been able to yet.

[Drak]

By all means, have a dream... i did. But for gods sake be realistic, and get some guitars made before you plan out a pipe dream.

I think the saying goes: "Keep your feet on the ground, and keep reaching for the stars" .

And, even tho we never get any credit for it, we would LOVE to see someone actually do it and start pumping out some really atrociously beautiful guitars, hell, that's why we're all here in the first place, so don't you or anyone else ever think that because we are incredibly honest and up-front with our opinions, that we for one second, would not clap like mad if someone started producing some gag-assed gorgeous guitars, I would be cheering like mad myself.

Hell, I've been on the FDP at least 11 years now, and I remember the FDP before you were even there, and you are making BEAUTIFUL guitars now, so I'm completely baffled why you took my recommend the way you did, you are one of the guys who are actually DOING it, step by step, inch by inch, asking, experimenting, improving, never giving up, tackling the next problem methodically and systematically, and you are now producing some beautiful product, which you sell on eBay, so who else better than you to answer his initial question, so I don't get why you got all backed up against the wall, beats me. I don't sell on eBay, and neither does Perry, so who better to ask than you?

But alas, next month, the next guy will pop in and ask the same question all over again and the guy who asked it last month is nowhere to be seen.

Tune in next week, same Bat time, same Bat channel.

[mledbetter]

Drak, I think you were just lumped in with Perry's comments.

And in defense of those comments, 100 people will come through here and say things like "I have found my calling and want to build guitars for a living.. now how do I radius the fretboard??" After a while you just assume that anyone who verbalizes their guitar building dream is just that, a dreamer.

Truth is, probably 1 out of every 100 might even make it and make a living. I'd love to make a living doing guitars but you can't get the cart before the horse and I don't say anything about it because that's my business and there's no use thinking about it really until I have a few under my belt and get a very realistic picture of the market, my quality and what price point will profit me the most.

It all boils down to marketing 101. You can't sell a product if you a) don't have a product or have a crappy product and the knee-jerk reaction is generally to try to ground folks and give them a dose of reality about the business and the relatively slim chances of making a living at it.

Heck even in the beginning of Hyscocks book, he starts out by saying that making guitars is a lousy profession but is extradorinary fun if you let it be.

Ebay is a hotbet of virtual dumpster divers who want the most they can get for as little as they can pay for it. You can sell on ebay and might even break even but you'll never make huge profit margins there. Only in volume will your margins go up and this is certainly not a business about volume.. unless you're fender gibson or PRS

Who are you two to say that everybody has to pay their dues YOUR way?

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I never said that, find the quote where I said anything like that. AAMOF, I never say things like that, I am a true believer in each person finding their own path.

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So you're saying that in order for me to correctly build a high quality guitar I must go back to the "wax on, wax off" (Karate Kid training reference) stage?

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No, I didn't say that either, and I'm totally baffled by why you would think I said that. I referenced you because of the exact reasons I stated, I think you have more experience with what he asked than anyone else here, I thought that was a compliment, obviously not taken that way. 

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I have never built furniture or cabinets, does that make me some idiot who's chasing some pipe dream? I've built 12 guitars now and now your telling me I need to go back in order to be legit?

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No, never said or implied that at all. Of anyone here that I am aware of, you have the exact information he needs, more than I do, more than Perry does. I think you took something the wrong way.

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Ok so that was my initial reaction. It's just that those comments sounded kind of builder snobbish. My total appology if I was wrong in that assumption.

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I am the furthest person from a snob you will ever talk to, maybe you were talking more of Perry than me, I don't really know, but I am very TRUTHFUL and HONEST, even sometimes BRUTALLY honest, and I HAVE seen dozens and dozens of people ask this same question, almost all of them with NO guitars under their belt yet, so I do stand by everything I did actually say, it is all true. 

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[Stew]

I was referring to Perry's comments. Drak, you were more conservative.

It just seemed like instead of giving out some advice, Perry instantly did a "OMG, not another idiot putting the cart before the horse" assuming Byron was just another one of those people who dream too big for reality. Sometimes I'm not aware about something and ask on such a forum. If I was greated with a "hey, we've got another one" response, I'd be pretty frustrated. It's like that customer service rule, eventhough you've been asked for the 100th time, "where's the bathrooms", you have to answer as if it's the first time you've been asked.

I owe so much to what I'm doing now with guitars because of all the advice that I've received. But I've received that advice in a manner that was patient. Maybe you've heard this "selling guitars on ebay for the first time, first time builder" lots of times, but this guy possibly might not have figured out all the pitfalls in his idea.

Anyway, off that soap box. I think this may have been a misunderstanding on both Bryon and my part. But reading the responses that Perry made, I would have been discouraged too at first.

About the cabinet making/furniture building, Perry you made it sound like you were more credible because of your 12 years of woodworking experience. Like it meant more than someone who did not have that experience before building guitars. Maybe I'm reading these threads backwards?

Drak, I was not really pointing fingers at you. Thanks for your kind comments about what I do. And Perry, I understand now what you were referring to. I was voicing what Byron was probably expressing based on his responses to you. Byron, hey, we're all just trying to help you and excuse us if this is the 100th time we've heard this question before. Nothing personal, just that we'd hate for you to waste so much valuable time and effort if you started pedalling backwards. Take all the advice you can, digest it, and take it into consideration.

[unclej]

just to lighten things up a bit you could always try my "quick sell" technique. two years ago my store was broken into...usual smash and grab. they got ten guitars and three amps. three of those guitars were handmade by me and hanging on the wall for sale. i got a quick insurance check for my full asking price...