verhoevenc Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 Anybody know how to do a "mother of toilet-seat" finish? Like on the Pagelli Jazzabilities, or the old Hofners? If you don't know what I'm talking about... That's it. Any possibility of anyone explaining the process, or even how one MIGHT go about doing it/where to get the stuff needed (google turns up nothing...) Or a tutorial????? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitefly SA Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 i would think you'd have to get some pearloid material and veneer it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank falbo Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 I don't know how some companies can wrap the guitar in pearloid. I mean it's flexible, but it looks like it was molded around the guitar. Maybe just heat applied appropriately is enough. But if you want to have a flat pearloid veneer, or just follow some arm contours, you can get drum covering from these guys: http://www.precisiondrum.com/html/wrap.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted September 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 I just emailed those guys, awaiting return asking about how thick their pearloid, and if that heat application is a reasonable idea or not. But I was thinking, you could do this quite nicely if the heat thing works. Like under-route some black binding so it sticks over the top, and hangs over the side by an extra bit as thick as the pearloid. So when you attach the stuff everything is flush, etc. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksound Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 I remembered seeing these and thought it might help, but it's apparently real inlaid shell. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunkielad Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 I don't know how some companies can wrap the guitar in pearloid. I mean it's flexible, but it looks like it was molded around the guitar. Maybe just heat applied appropriately is enough. But if you want to have a flat pearloid veneer, or just follow some arm contours, you can get drum covering from these guys: I have seen this process in the sign world and usually it's vaccum formed. The best way to do it is to build a box then attach a vaccum 'cleaner' to the bottom. Use a sheet of MDF to lay your work on (the air passes through MDF) and then attach the sheet air tight around the top edge. Apply heat whilst sucking out the air and it will form around the guitar. You'd need to have escape holes for theair though - pick up cavitied etc. Here's a complex version for veneer http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/welcome.htm Here's how the RC builders do it http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271187 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted September 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 Chuckielad you are a life saver. The idea seems pretty steadfast. HOWEVER, my one concern is, I read those tuts on vacuum forming, but they're all using what looks to be some seriously thin material... how thick is like "percision drum"'s pearl drum wrap? I'm fearful it'll be too thick to heat/vacuum form. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Alex Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 (edited) At my old school we had a vacuum former which heated the hell out of the plastic and then sucked it over your mold, it was hot enough to burn you and it was like 2mm vinyl we were using(vyvac or something like that). So heat should work as long as that drum wrap isn't like celluloid. If you wanna do the back as well, you'll need to figure out a way to join a second piece, perhaps a black accent line between them. Edit: keep in mind the vinyl could get quite thin on the edges and I broke a piece that was stretched too far. But I'd think a guitar would be fine. Edited September 22, 2005 by Mr Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunkielad Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 (edited) Chuckielad you are a life saver. The idea seems pretty steadfast. HOWEVER, my one concern is, I read those tuts on vacuum forming, but they're all using what looks to be some seriously thin material... how thick is like "percision drum"'s pearl drum wrap? I'm fearful it'll be too thick to heat/vacuum form. Chris ← I'm not sure on that material but if it has any plastic properties at all, heat it and I reckon it'll be just fine IMHO. As far as joining, you'll have to make a back piece and a front piece then either glue them on and trim the two edges to meet square (absolute nightmare) or maybe a trim tape around the join or even trim as best you can, fill any gaps and do a little burst around the edge. If you make a MDF copy of the guitar you could do loads and start selling these on ebay!! Hmmmm new project! Edited September 22, 2005 by chunkielad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted September 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 Hahahahaha I think that stuff IS celluloid... but oh well... trying won't hurt, and this is for the FUTURE too. As for how I'm gunna do that whole thing? Easy, vacuum form the stuff over the top and sides, then cut it flat on the bottom, and add binding that's flush with it that sticks out the back a little, then since the back of the guitar is flat, i just use my body template to cut another piece of the stuff, and fit it in the surrounding groove of the overhanging binding and tada, whole guitar done nicely. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunkielad Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Hahahahaha I think that stuff IS celluloid... but oh well... trying won't hurt, and this is for the FUTURE too. As for how I'm gunna do that whole thing? Easy, vacuum form the stuff over the top and sides, then cut it flat on the bottom, and add binding that's flush with it that sticks out the back a little, then since the back of the guitar is flat, i just use my body template to cut another piece of the stuff, and fit it in the surrounding groove of the overhanging binding and tada, whole guitar done nicely. Chris ← Excellent idea - I'd assumed a carve top and gone off on a tangent! Sounds like a plan mate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted September 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Yeah, it'll be a carved top... but a flat back... Next couple things to think about, will this stuff freak out and chip and break all over is you tried to routeit /through it (ie: to reveal your f-holes again after vacuum forming?) and to accomplish the back edge binding idea. Concern two: see if my schoo has one that I can abuse the use of ... or I guess I just make my own like everyone else online seems to be doing. Chris PS: I've asked Pagelli himself about what method he used (told him our assumptions) and I'll repost with his reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunkielad Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Yeah, it'll be a carved top... but a flat back... Next couple things to think about, will this stuff freak out and chip and break all over is you tried to routeit /through it (ie: to reveal your f-holes again after vacuum forming?) and to accomplish the back edge binding idea. Concern two: see if my schoo has one that I can abuse the use of ... or I guess I just make my own like everyone else online seems to be doing. Chris PS: I've asked Pagelli himself about what method he used (told him our assumptions) and I'll repost with his reply. ← Please do post the reply - it's an interesting one this! I reckon you may be best making and MDF copy of your guitar and using that to make the thing on - this way the air will get sucked through it and the material can be trimmed BEFORE putting it onto the guitar - a bit of adhesive and away you go! I suppose that if you only do one, then you won't need to go that far - you could make a load of different ones for one guitar and change them when you get bored! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted September 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Hahahaha, yeah, a bunch of different ones you can just switch out by using low level adhesives like rubber cement lol, I lOVE the idea. However, with the MDF idea, one fatal flaw... if it's a carved top guitar (Which I'm planning on) then theres no WAY to get the carve on the MDF and the carve on the original the exact same (unless you have a CNC). So there'd always be little parts that aren't right, so getting it to fit even NEAR snug would be a pain in the butt. Plus, from what I've read I'm not risking my guitar body at ALL by forming onto it (as long as the grain is filled/sealed). Aparently the plastic comes RIGHT off. As for my comment on it being celluloid, I was TOTALLY wrong, went to their site, and it's pure plastics. Beautiful 1/2 mm thick plastic Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted September 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 OK, news flash (I still haven't gotten the reply yet) but I think I know how he does it. Gourmet-Guitars.com did I video special on him, you can watch a trailer of that special on their website (or from the link on the Pagelli site itself) and at one point it a fading pictures/slide-show and THREE of those pictures show the process. One pic shows him with half the body's top covered in a white pearloid, while he's brushing glue on the other side. Another shows him using like a ROLLER to make sure it's all flat, and then lastly one shows him trimming the edges. HOWEVER, his guitars ARE carved top that he does this too, but they're a GRADUAL carve like a jazz guitar top with no re-carve. IE the above method wouldn't work on something with a drastic carve and/or sharp/steep edges. Then I imagine the vacuum form would be a must. Chris PS: Go watch the two videos he links to in his "News" section anyways, they're totally pimped out! A real showcase of beauty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunkielad Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 I'll have a look at the vid soon - you need a copy carver too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted September 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Yeah, I'll get right on spending hundreds of $$$. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 Exotic Woods has 2mm pearloid acrylic in 23" x 14" sheets - acrylic is usually fairly easy to shape with heat, so this might work for your vacuum-forming. Have you considered doing it the way they do laminate countertops? Apply edge banding, trim, then apply the front and back, and trim the edges with a nice bevel cutter - that might not be what you're looking for, though. Just a random thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted September 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 And here's what you've been waiting for, Pagelli himselve's response: "i try to explain in my bad english.. the material is celluloid, as used on the accordeon. do you say harmonica? its a stiff material that gets soft when you put it in aceton with water or aceton steam. there are several ways to do it. when its soft, you get maximum one hour to work with it. after that, it is getting stiff again but till its completely dry and ready for sanding and polishing, it need one month. the hard thing is to get it wrapped arround the edges. thats why very seldom you see the whole guitar covered with that finish. its no problem to make just a flat top with that material. we showed that guitar at the largest music fair of the world, in frankfurt germany , a few years ago, and one year later we saw allready approx 10 companys using that material to....(for ex godin.) but i must say that in the seventies it was a common finish, especially in italy. we just discovered that material again. but to work with that material is very unhealthy and a real pain in whatever.. so. all the best to you an your friends at projectguitar.com claudio" So yeah, that's it. However for some reason... after he explained how he does it... I kinda wanna go the vacuum former route with a plastic non-celluloid version. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunkielad Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 So yeah, that's it. However for some reason... after he explained how he does it... I kinda wanna go the vacuum former route with a plastic non-celluloid version. Chris ← How GREAT is it to answer!!!! Marvelous!!! I can understand why you don't want to try it that way mate! Manthat''s not an easy option is it? Maybe there's a plastic look alike that can be vacuum formed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted September 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 Yeah, the pearloid sold by percisiondrums mentioned earlier in this thread is a 1/2mm plastic. Sounds thin enough to heat and vacuum form to me? And to my knowledge (which I corrected after falsely stating) it's not a celluloid plastic material that they use. HOWEVER even if it was, I've read up on celluloid, and also it IS known to go soft in aceton, it ALSO does so under the light application of heat. So regardless of whether it's plastic or celluloid based plastics, the vacuum forming SHOULD work, I guess Pagelli just CHOSE to use the aceton method, or did not have forming as an option. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted September 26, 2005 Report Share Posted September 26, 2005 Real celluloid is 70-85% nitrocellulose (gun cotton), the same resin that makes nitro lacquer clear and hard - I would recommend extreme caution when applying any heat to it, since it is is a nitrate-based high explosive, much like nitroglycerin (nitrocellulose is about 6 times as powerful in explosive force as black powder). It also has a nasty habit of decomposing over time into a gooey or powdery mess that remains very flammable, which is why so many of the old celluloid movie films made before 1951 have been lost to either fire or just plain disintegration. Soak that in acetone, and you've got a potential firestorm waiting to happen - if you decide to go that route, for God's sake, be careful!! I think I'd try the acrylic drum wrap myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted September 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2005 Hahahaha thanks, one more reason under my belt to go the vacuum wrap route! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted September 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Got my sample packet from persiciondrum.com the other day. it ROCKS they give you like a 2"x1" piece of EVERY wrap they make in almost EVERY color! For FREE! Tons to messa round with and try melting, etc. EVERYONE should get one and try to vacuum wrap with it, it has got to be the COOLEST thing I've ever gotten for free lol. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunkielad Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Not sure they'd send to the UK though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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