silvertonessuckbutigotone Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 (edited) So yeah, I was kinda nervous posting this because some of the most harsh/critical feedback with music comes from musicians themselves, but none the less i want the feed back. My band rerecorded a new version of one of our songs, with the new singer doing his part instead of the old guy. We are a christian band who doesnt really know how to describe our sound. You could compare us to screamo/harcore (Underoath, Dead Poetic, The Used) and grunge/nu metal (Nirvana, Seether, Mudvayne) mixed. The song is called Visions and its one of the 5 original songs that we play, and one of the two that we have recorded (the other isnt done being edited yet). My band is called "Equally Being Offended" or EBO for short. Our website is: http://www.equallybeingoffended.cjb.net and our myspace site is http://www.myspace.com/equallybeingoffended . On the myspace site, the song paly automatically, but on the other site, you go to media and click Visions. Just post your feedback good or bad. ...and please guys none of the "how can u call that music its just screaming and yelling" because thats not really giving us feedback as a band because we're not going to change styles. BTW I'm the guitar player and screamer/yeller. Edited December 3, 2005 by silvertonessuckbutigotone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bytrix Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 not bad in terms of structure. A few things I'd try to 'improve' it : 1 : In the 'quiet' section I would actually lower the volume of the whole thing, it's acoustic sounding but actually comes over louder than the rest of the song does (especially the vocals). 2 : on that quiet part I would use more of a 'classic rock' sound, keep it on the bridge pickup, on a 'crunch' type setting if you have on on your amp/equipment. 3 : I would add in an extra few beats from the drums during the repeating parts say every 2nd bar. + the whole thing is recorded just a little too loud, you're hitting the peak volume often which causes little crackles (and I was just listening to an album before this mp and this was way louder). Overall an interesting song and shows alot of promise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rokeros Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 How long has the guiarist been playing? Not to insult by the fact that I am christian too, but is he meant to lose the rythm? Or maybe I am not used to metal. But overall, cool. But that is not an exellent. I would seriously recommend that if you guys are going to record a decent sound, do one track and a time so you can layer and edit them individually. Just tiny tweaks and changes makes the whole thing sound a lot better. Not forgetting about supercharging your fingers. Here are some tracks my friend did a while back. He only used guitarport and a eric clapton strat. He had only played for 5 years at that time, but just to prove that a little time spending to adjust sounds makes a big difference. P.S. They're christian too so you can compare. http://www.whencehecame.net/ecard.html http://www.myspace.com/whencehecame Ash HK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvertonessuckbutigotone Posted December 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 (edited) what part does he lose the rhythm, i've only been playing for a little over 2 years. i didnt notice it. thats really odd cuz i played other mp3s next to this song and it soudned about the same ovlume wise. thats weird because sometimes it was maxed out in audactiy but still wouldnt be the right volume compared to other mp3s. also, the drummer actually does tear it up on drums when WE actually paly it, but we had to use a drum program so we couldnt add very good fills so we decided to stick with the steady beat. with the loudness of the soft part its the sound we're going for, the intrigueingly loud vocals compared to the instruments, its a new type of feel but its not that horrible depending on what ur used to. and we did edit individually each instrument seperately. theres advantages to recording all at once and recording seperately and with the low tech equipment/software i have, its really hard (tedious, etc.) to edit even single tracks. Edited December 3, 2005 by silvertonessuckbutigotone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 What you need to do is record at a lower volume and then increase the volume of the entire song (once all the levels have been adjusted) through the audio program you use. That way you wont get clipping in the input, but it will still be the same level of other mp3s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Actually, what would be more helpful would be to use different settings for your limiter (AKA maximizing compressor or simply maximizer) for the quiet part. Because the music is less dense at that part, the remaining audio has increased perceived loudness, which isn't what you want. I didn't notice the rhythm player 'losing' the rhythm per se. He seemed to be keeping the right rhythm for this kind of song, and doing a pretty good job of it. The "fills" being played had less rhythm than the rhythm player, and the tone was too 'present' for the little lick-like things to be anything but distracting. This is of higher quality than the tracks I was recording when I first started on a Tascam portastudio. I didn't know what the heck I was doing back then, and at least you guys have something going on here! That said, I'm not sure if any criticisms I could give should be aimed at the songwriting, etc., or if I should be giving you tips on production values. (ie. balancing the mix, using panning and reverb or other effects). Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rokeros Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Sorry, I guess I am not into this type of music, hurts my ears thats all. But cool I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvertonessuckbutigotone Posted December 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 That said, I'm not sure if any criticisms I could give should be aimed at the songwriting, etc., or if I should be giving you tips on production values. (ie. balancing the mix, using panning and reverb or other effects). both would be amazing, but i prefer more on the song writing part, because we will be playing the song live before the next time we rerecord it. and thats the only way we would be able to change any of these things because the computer i'm using is really old, so after having any more than 2 or 3 tracks it starts messing up. so i have to prematurely mix the tracks down. BTW if anyone knows of a better free recording program than audacity, point me to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rokeros Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 (edited) I personally use Ableton Live 5.1. After comparing with protools and Sonar products, I have an overall winning conclusion of cheap, aesthically attractive interface,easy to use and good quality sounds. Those sites I gave on the earlier post were used with protools, and stuff with ableton is something like this: http://www.thelovesong.org/mainpage/mp3s/0...ern%20skies.mp3 http://www.thelovesong.org/mainpage/mp3s/0...20to%20hate.mp3 These may not be your type of music, but just to show the quality you can achieve. btw, it only took a couple of hours for my friend to record these songs. But to have free decent is almost impossible unless you download from somewhere like Limewire. Hope it helps. Ash HK Edited December 3, 2005 by rokeros Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill-Murray Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Ahhhh, sorry. I thought it was absolutely terrible. Keep working hard and you'll get it one day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Alright, without going overboard: The 'clean fills' being played need to be sorted out. They're too much just like plunking on random strings with no conviction whatsoever. The bass guitar is only playing the root note of each riff. Fair enough if he's a new bass player and doesn't know any better, but it leaves the dynamics of the song very flat. What's worse, the rhythm guitar and drummer are playing the same rhythm. So that means that you have: drums = rhythm guitar = bass guitar = NO sonic variety! The screaming isn't actually all that bad for the genre. If you don't blow your vocal chords out before the show, you'll be fine. A bit of distortion doesn't hurt, either. ---- Regarding production: If you can only get 3 tracks of audio before needing to bounce, you'll need a new computer before you can get too much into it, and you certainly won't be able to run Ableton Live. But, when the time comes, or if you want to be creative: - Your vocals need heavy compression to smooth out the dynamics. Also, you are clipping, which means that the limiter/maximizer in Audacity isn't doing its job transparently. You'll need something less distort-y - The bass guitar needs compression as well. Right now its attack doesn't pop enough. Maybe a different technique wouldn't hurt, either-- use a pick instead of a finger, or a finger-snap instead of a finger-walk. - Always mix everything based around the rhythm section first. Right now the whole mix falls apart because the drums aren't sitting right in the mix. It might be hard to get them to sit right with their current rather 'thin' sound, but they do need a bit more presence. That's about it without going nutzo with advice. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenderSurrender Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 If you can only get 3 tracks of audio before needing to bounce, you'll need a new computer before you can get too much into it, Thats definitly a good idea, you could also however buy a half decent multi-track with a fairly decent sized internal hdd and cdrw If you definitly want to stay on the pc route, get your self some decent VST plugins for your software, and as mentioned before get some compression on there since it clips Audacity isnt a bad program and i used to use it a fair amount, it gets the job done but does require some breathing room on the host pc so it can manage all the tracks and recorded sound. Personally id get a multi-track but a half decent spec pc will do you, just make sure you get yourself a nice soundcard so that you minimize any more noise getting onto the signal chain. Definitly potential dude! ~~ TS ~~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvertonessuckbutigotone Posted December 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 A bit of distortion doesn't hurt, either. did you mean vocal distortion, or distortion as in an electronic effect distortion loop over the screams? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 I think he means a distortion effect applied to your voice. As for the multi-track recording thing, since you're already using a PC, I'd stick with that. Get a medium-specced but modern PC, and a proper soundcard that comes bundled with a proper recording software, and you'll be golden. You're a fairly young dude, though, if I'm not mistaken, so you might not have that kind of money to throw around. But if your family celebrates Christmas and it's not too late.....! Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenderSurrender Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 Greg is right, as long as you can get yourself a have decent spec PC and a good soundcard, you should be ok! The advantage of a multi-track over a PC is if you say decide you want to record a gig or just a rehearsel away from your home, it can be perfect. However its accepted fairly universaly that a PC is more versatile One thing to remember is when spec'in up your PC, do not skimp out on a decent sized Hard Drive. If you do as i do, and save all the different versions of a recording and use quite a few tracks doing it, your soon going to be eating into your drive ~~ TS ~~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodBlessTexas Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 The good: The singer has a decent voice on the parts where he sings. At 2:34 in, you switch from the chorus to the verse music, and that transition is the best of the entire song. See below. The mellow breakdown at 3:20 is a very nice touch. Instead of switching back to the screaming part at 3:41, build it up increasingly from the mellow part, getting louder and closer to screaming with each verse. Start soft like the first mellow line, then work up. Example: <Start mellow> Can you help me now... Can I pray somehow... <A little louder> Can you heal me now... Can you find me now... <A little louder> Can you help me now... Can I pray somehow... <A little louder> Can you heal me now... Can you find me now... <Screaming> Can you help me now... Can I pray somehow... Can you heal me now... Can you find me now... <Fade out> The bad: First, the vocalist needs to watch his plosives (p, d, and t type sounds where you can hear something extra when he says it, almost like he's breathing into the microphone.) It's a common problem. Back away from the mic and get a windscreen to help. The fills during the clean/chorus part don't fit at all. Work within the chords you are playing during the verse to figure out what to play. The bass player is always playing the root notes of the power chords/triads. Try having him alternate between the root note and the fifth interval that make up the two notes in a power chord or triad and try coming up with a phrase or melody line. At about 37-38 seconds into the song it seems to transition from the verse to the chorus. The distorted guitar switches in way too early, and there's no real transition between the two. Either have the guitar cut out until he start playing the rythm part again, or have him play something that transitions between the two. The solo doesn't work. It's an off-key repeat of the vocal melody. Get it on-key and loosen up with it a bit because it's stiff. Then it transitions into another part that doesn't fit musically or by its phrasing. I didn't hear a single bass drum in the entire thing. There's a hi-hat in there, but no bass/snare to go with it. Those need to be louder if they're there, and put there if they're not. But whatever you do, don't stop writing and recording. You'll improve, and one of my most treasured posessions is a tape of my playing from high school and college. Some of it is downright awful, but there are some jems in there that make me smile. Start with the suggestions you're getting here, and keep on going. BWT, it's really hard to get a good distortion sound recorded. Just remember that sometimes you have to change your settings when you record to get a sound close to what you sound like live. Sometimes a volume tweak up or down helps, but other times you have to adjust your EQ or lower the gain settings to sound good on a recording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvertonessuckbutigotone Posted December 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 (edited) so, this is the list ive come up with so far for improvement: song itself- 1. distort later in the transition from verse to chorus 2. start mellow then work up to louder in the soft part 3. mix things up a bit with the bass guitar 4. find something else for the solo (BTW as far as i can tell its the same key, ive switched back and forth from the actual verse to the solo a bunch and it sounds in the same key? maybe i have a bad ear) 5. mix things up a bit with the drums 6. do something different with the guitar fills in the verse recording- 1. give the bass more attack 2. do something about the plosives 3. mix the drums to where the bass drum/snare/toms can be heard easily 4. tweak around with the settings and see waht sounds best with guitar 5. heavy compression on the vocals (BTW i dont really have a clue what that means but i'll look it up somewhere, or if uve got a good site to explain it, or if u can explain it) 6. try getting a new pc (yeah im pretty young, 15, and although xmas is coming up i doubt i'll buy a pc with my money, i'll prolly get a new amp, cuz mine blows). tell me if im missing anything Edited December 7, 2005 by silvertonessuckbutigotone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marzocchi705 Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 With regards to the key of the solo, write out the notes of the key ( ie gmaj is G A B C D E F# G) Then write the notes of the solo over it, say if you have all F naturals, then you either need to make them sharp or change the key so you dont get dissonance. You know all about your chord/melody line theory? Try to solo using notes from the chord at first, im going to use G again for this example, Chord 1 is G (G B D) chord 4 is C (C E G) and chord 5 is D (D F# A), my chord progression is 1, 4, 5, 1 each chord 1 bar long. I want to use the notes of the g chord in bar 1, the c chord in bar 2 ect. That way it might not sound impressive due to the lack of notes, but it wont sound bad, and with pratice youl naturaly know what notes go where, and what you can do when. Sorry for the theory lesson if you already knew it, thought it might come in handy for someone atleast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvertonessuckbutigotone Posted December 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 ok so "in the wrong key" meaning in the wrong key compared to the rhythm guitar, i thought he meant wrong key compared to the actual verse vocals. so would the chorus part be a better rhythm part for the solo area than the verse/bridge riff? and instead of doing a mutilated version of the verse vocals, i should play around with the notes from the chords and see waht sounds good over the chorus guitar? that sounds like a better idea. thanks for the advice guys, im off to go play around with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvertonessuckbutigotone Posted December 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 ok, so i checked it out, and it turns out the clipping in the mp3 comes from amplifying it all, and small peaks hitting the maximum volume within audacity. is there a way i can change the maximum volume in audacity so when i amplify the song as a whole it won't clip in the small peaks. when i say small peaks im talking about usually it happens in the vocals near the plosives, and stuff like that. and its only in those parts where its clipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 I think you're mixing up terminology. You can't "amplify" beyond 0db without getting a clip. What you need to do is use a limiter. Since Audacity can load VSTs with an add-on, I suggest installing the add-on and then running the song through the W1 limiter, which is freeware available from yohng.com. Set the ceiling to 0db or -0.1 db, keep the release at the default (200ms), and then adjust the threshold to -10db or whatever sounds good. Also, I held off for as long as I could, since you have obviously put time into the website, the MySpace site and everything else, but... and I'm halfway trying to be diplomatic and halfway just wanting to be blunt... you should really reconsider the band's name. It's got no schnutz! Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenderSurrender Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 I think you're mixing up terminology. You can't "amplify" beyond 0db without getting a clip. What you need to do is use a limiter. Since Audacity can load VSTs with an add-on, I suggest installing the add-on and then running the song through the W1 limiter, which is freeware available from yohng.com. Set the ceiling to 0db or -0.1 db, keep the release at the default (200ms), and then adjust the threshold to -10db or whatever sounds good. Also, I held off for as long as I could, since you have obviously put time into the website, the MySpace site and everything else, but... and I'm halfway trying to be diplomatic and halfway just wanting to be blunt... you should really reconsider the band's name. It's got no schnutz! Greg ← Just questioning something in that statement Greg...I am in no doubt you probably kno wmuch more than me about this but as far as i am aware (through music tech so far), its better to set the peak level at somewhere around -6, giving you head room for any problems later on, ~~ TS ~~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenderSurrender Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 Right, ok ive just spoke a loda rubbish What Greg has put is definitly a good way to go forward... setting the level so it peaks at -6 is only during actual recording... If you set it at -6db whilst recording, it gives you headroom so that if the drummer hits it slightly harder for some reason or the guitarist hits a chord slightly harder.. youve still got from -6 up to 0 for it to go before it clips Sorry for the confusion ~~ TS ~~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 Word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenderSurrender Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 LOL Greg, from now on ill let you do the talking Ill do the whole "yeh what he said" stuff ~~ TS ~~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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