Mickguard Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 I'm going to use LMI's FW110 fret wire for my guitar -- that means a fret height above the board of 1.27 mm (.50") I'm looking at Allpart's fret page for my zero fret wire. I know I need slightly taller fret wire --but how much taller should it be? Allparts has quite a variety. And I'm thinking of getting stainless steel wire for the zero fret --is that really that much difficult to work with? It's a pity they don't just offer single pieces of ready-made zero frets... Of course, if anyone has any spare/scrap fret wire of the appropriate size that he wants to mail to me, I'll gladly pay your postage! Here's what I'm looking at: LT_0867-000 Fret Wire A= 2.40mm .095" B= 2.90mm .114" C= 1.40mm .055" D= 1.50mm .059" E= 0.50mm .020" F= 0.95mm .037" 2 Foot Length or LT_0893-005 Stainless Steel Fret Wire A= 2.40mm .095" B= 2.80mm .110" C= 1.37mm .054" D= 1.70mm .067" E= 0.60mm .024" F= 0.80mm .032" 2 Foot Length or LT_0895-000 Fret Wire A= 2.80mm .110" B= 2.75mm .108" C= 1.30mm .051" D= 1.45mm .057" E= 0.60mm .024" F= 0.95mm .037" 2 Foot Length or LT_0482-000 Fret Wire A= 2.80mm .110" B= 3.15mm .124" C= 1.40mm .055" D= 1.75mm .069" E= 0.60mm .024" F= 0.95mm .037" 2 Foot Length or LT_0897-005 Stainless Steel Fret Wire A= 2.80mm .110" B= 3.15mm .124" C= 1.40mm .055" D= 1.60mm .063" E= 0.60mm .024" F= 0.80mm .032" 2 Foot Length Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 I know I need slightly taller fret wire --but how much taller should it be? Allparts has quite a variety. No you don't. When you use a capo, do you increase the height of the fret you place it behind? Just use the same wire, and if you really want a fractionally taller frets, add it after you've levelled and dressed the rest. Factory guitars may use taller wire for the zero fret, and nuts which place the strings above the fret height of the rest of the neck, buit that's because *they're cutting corners*. If you want bad action at the nut, sharp chords in first position, and a stiff feel, jack up theheight at the nut, but personally, I build my own to avoid that stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 No you don't. When you use a capo, do you increase the height of the fret you place it behind? Just use the same wire, and if you really want a fractionally taller frets, add it after you've levelled and dressed the rest. You're right about the capo (about most things, really)...so you're saying the relief in the neck is all that's needed? Still, when looking at my Hofner, the zero fret is clearly taller --looks like a different material too. I have no way of knowing if it's the original fret though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 No you don't. When you use a capo, do you increase the height of the fret you place it behind? Just use the same wire, and if you really want a fractionally taller frets, add it after you've levelled and dressed the rest. You're right about the capo (about most things, really)...so you're saying the relief in the neck is all that's needed? Still, when looking at my Hofner, the zero fret is clearly taller --looks like a different material too. I have no way of knowing if it's the original fret though. Well, looking at most guitars in any guitar shop you'll find they have nut action set way above the fret height. That way you can get away without levelling the frets properly. This doesn't make it a good idea. The neck relief has very little effect around the lower frets, usually the slope of the strings as they go towards the bridge is enough to clear the 1st fret without any help from the relief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 No you don't. When you use a capo, do you increase the height of the fret you place it behind? Just use the same wire, and if you really want a fractionally taller frets, add it after you've levelled and dressed the rest. You're right about the capo (about most things, really)...so you're saying the relief in the neck is all that's needed? Still, when looking at my Hofner, the zero fret is clearly taller --looks like a different material too. I have no way of knowing if it's the original fret though. Mickguard: I'm at work (goofing off obviously) but when I get home I'll take a look at my Hohner. I'm the original owner and it has a zero fret. It hasn't appeared to me to be any higher than the rest of the frets but I'll take a closer look later and confirm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegarehanman Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Mickguard. Remember that if you use a different material for the zero fret, your open tone will not be identical to your fretted tone(which is kind of what your aiming for, right? ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Mickguard. Remember that if you use a different material for the zero fret, your open tone will not be identical to your fretted tone(which is kind of what your aiming for, right? ). Well, my choice for using a zero fret is that, after everything I've read about them, it doesn't make sense not to have one--my take is that you don't find them on production guitars because they require more work (as Setch suggested). It's easier for them to slap a nut on there. Not to mention the coolness factor of having a guitar with a zero fret. I'm not sure that there'll be a real audible difference in tone between the nickel/silver wire I'll be using for the rest of the frets and using stainless steel...everything's possible. My choice for stainless steel would be for durability --since that fret is going to take a lot of pressure, more so than any other fret, it makes sense that it be harder. On the other hand, I could always replace it from time to time. So in the end my choice will lean toward ease of use first. Which means the nickel/silver wire I have. But if Setch says I'm good to go with the same wire, that's coming from a pretty dependable source! Worse comes to worse, if it ends up that I need the extra height, I can replace the zero fret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Hey Mickguard - I checked my Hohner G2T (Steinberger licensed copy) and damned if I see any difference with its zero fret and the rest of the frets. To me it seems that the neck relief is all it takes to get around it. Now you've got me curious though so I'll do some digging around on the net and see what I can find. From what I've read, a zero fret sounds like a pretty good idea. If I get to the point of making a neck, I would consider it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Hey Mickguard - I checked my Hohner G2T (Steinberger licensed copy) and damned if I see any difference with its zero fret and the rest of the frets. To me it seems that the neck relief is all it takes to get around it. Now you've got me curious though so I'll do some digging around on the net and see what I can find. From what I've read, a zero fret sounds like a pretty good idea. If I get to the point of making a neck, I would consider it. Okay, good to know...thanks! I actually got the idea for a zero fret while dreaming/drooling over an old Gretsch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Hey Mickguard - I checked my Hohner G2T (Steinberger licensed copy) and damned if I see any difference with its zero fret and the rest of the frets. To me it seems that the neck relief is all it takes to get around it. Now you've got me curious though so I'll do some digging around on the net and see what I can find. From what I've read, a zero fret sounds like a pretty good idea. If I get to the point of making a neck, I would consider it. Okay, good to know...thanks! I actually got the idea for a zero fret while dreaming/drooling over an old Gretsch... Are you going to do a sorta Buzz Feiten mod like we talked about in a previous post. Read the next to last question and answer on this link to see what Feiten himself says about the use of zero fret for this purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Looked at some of my extra necks sitting around that have zero frets and noticed they have significant string grooves worn in them : http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v398/soa...ro_fret3061.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v398/soa...ro_fret3062.jpg *wear* is a reason regular nuts are made so the strings are not *absolutely* as low as possible, and I guess it's also something to consider with a zero fret . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 And it looks like they're all different fret wire (from the rest of the neck) too? But those necks look pretty old --so I wonder how long it took to get the zero frets to that point? And are those necks still playable? The zero fret on my Hofner (as far as I can tell it was built around 1968) also has some pretty significant grooves worn into it, but it still plays really well (bit more wear on the low E though). But again, the zero fret on that stands pretty tall. Still, if it's going to take me 20 years to wear out the zero fret, then it's no big deal...by then I'll most likely have to replace all the frets. Or more likely, by then the guitar will be a wall-hanger: "My first from-scratch build including neck" while I'm playing the fifth generation guitar... Anyway, about the Hofner, a humble Congress type...I've always thought of it as one of those 'magic' guitars--because it played so much easier than any folk guitar I'd ever played. In fact, it was more like playing an electric. And I've had a few other guitarists play it, and they're all amazed by it too... Well, I finally realized that's probably mostly because of the zero fret! Yet another reason to give it a go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 My fav acoustic is an old Jap epiphone with a zero fret. A very little bit of wear on the zero, but far more on the first fret...plays really great. Really...there will be downwoods pressure on the zero but it will be constant because of the nut behind it. It will wear, but probably no more than the other frets because of that. At least that's what it looks like on mine. The zero seems to be of the same fret wire. This guitar has been played for the longest time, hundreds of hours over 25 years with the same frets. The frets have very obvious wear but not so the zero...so I'd say go for it! pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Don't know how playable they are. Two are 70's Epiphone acoustic bolt-on necks that were out for trash pickup (necks are in perfect shape, bodies were NOT). Also I measured the one Epi neck and the zero fret is .006" higher than the first fret. Quite sure the frets are factory stock. Got any low E strings in the .050" to .058" range that you could make "trial" zero frets out of ? ( or they could even be a permanent solution ? [super-glue]) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Well...ok, I can't see a difference but I have always been lead to believe that a zero fret should be a little higher...stands to reason. I'd do something with those epi necks...I know bolt on acoustics may seem a little odd, but they are a good feeling neck really, and the guitars played quite well, even sound ok for what they were... two you say... pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 The discussion came up on an acoustic building forum not too long ago, and the majority used the same fretwire for all frets, including the zero. A number of top-end builders among them. If you're a touch paranoid: install all the frets save zero, level, re-crown, then install the zero fret. That'll give you a marginally different height. And, erm, bolt-on acoustics? The new standard, and in no way inferior (tonally or in terms of solidity) to dovetailed or mortise/tenon guitars. Every Taylor you've ever seen has a bolt-on neck. The cheapie guitars you see will simply be glued, because it's cheaper, easier, and faster to do than a good bolt-on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 I think I'm going to follow mattia's method --it makes the most sense. Don't know about bolt-on acoustics, although I'd wager that those 70-era Epiphones didn't quite fall under the category of 'quality' guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikhailgtrski Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Don't know about bolt-on acoustics, although I'd wager that those 70-era Epiphones didn't quite fall under the category of 'quality' guitar. Hmmm.... my son has a mid 70's Epiphone/Gibson (made in Japan) and it sounds absolutely killer (got it in used but primo condition for $250). Solid spruce top, rosewood back/sides (although it has a veneer on the outside), mahogany set neck. He put a bone nut and saddle on it (big tonal improvement) and an LR Baggs I-Beam. The only thing it gives up to a high-end Taylor/Martin/Gibson (IMO) is it compresses just a bit more when played really hard. And the inlay job is awful - big gaps filled with black epoxy and not leveled properly. We've talked about replacing the fretboard and doing some nice inlay. Needs a fret job anyway. I used to have an Epi Texan 12-string, again mid '70s MIJ. Nice sounding. It had a zero fret, but when I got it (slightly used for $112 back in '79) it wouldn't play in tune. I found that the nut/string spacer wasn't cut right, so some of the strings weren't sitting on the zero fret. It played great after I cut the string slots deeper. Weird thing was it had an electric-style bolt-on neck that bolted onto a large block where the dovetail would normally be. Never seen anything like it since. It's in Russia now... I gave it to a young guitarist in Magadan when I visited there in '94. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Have "big ideas" for bolt-on F-hole hollow body guitars using those 24.75 scale epi necks. 20 frets kind of makes 'em kooky for a solid body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Well...if they are anything like my acoustic necks they will be great. Sure they were "budget" guitars but the necks and general build was stella for what they were and played so well and featured some great ideas (adjustble acoustic bridge, for instance)... I'll take playability and a decent tone over bad build and a lot of plastic binding flash on a budget anyday! Oh, and mine cost A$40, a new set of strings, replaced tuners and a bit of a shim under the neck and, it's been played everyday now for over 25 years...still my secret fav guitar.... pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 I was playing around with a capo this morning....and realized that maybe this fret height thing isn't an issue after all...put the capo just behind the first fret, which is obviously the same height as the other frets, and the guitar sounds great like that, and there's no buzzing at all. So I'm assuming having the same fret height at the zero fret is not going to be a problem at all --unless the slope of the neck --from the neck relief--becomes an issue there? At any rate, playing around with the capo convinced me of two things: one, I definitely want to use zero frets. And two, the nuts slots on my guitar are cut way too high... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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