Deep Set Neck Tenon

[George Brown]

so deepset neck tenons, apparently they increase sustain an tone and reduce deadspots.

what do you think? is it worth it from the view of construction and the sound it will produce once finished?

(i voted yes)

Edited April 23, 2006 by George Brown

[Mattia]

I can't really answer this. Will in 'increase' tone? Maybe. Will it decrease dead spots? I very much doubt it. If you want to even out a neck, use a pair of CF rods. I like the solidity it provides on models where I do extensive heel carving. Heck, I even leave part of it proud and recess it into the carved top section (also helps things get lined up). But I suspect a lot of it is because I like the percieved solidity, and the minor amount of woodworking dorking (y'know, nice, relatively complicated joints have their own kind of charm) contributes to this. I'll give this a cautious 'yes', particularly given the fact I continuously build with the darn things. Although I tend to stop mine at around the bridge pickup. If you go further, just go ahead and build a neck-through, would ya?

[thegarehanman]

Tell us how to quantify tone and then we'll tell you if it increases it . I don't see how a deep set neck would transfer vibrations any better than a guitar with the same body and neck wood and a set neck joint tight enough to stay together without glue or bolts(not when strung up, of course). I think, at most, the deep set neck minimizes the role the body wood plays on the sound of the guitar.

[crafty]

Well, I can't seem to tell much of a difference between a Les Paul Standard and an R9, but somehow the purists can so there must be something to it. I dunno. I think people split too many hairs with production guitars, anyway.

On another semi-related note, I was at a free Counting Crows concert last night. One of the guys was just wailing away on this Tele with just incredible tone--and it was a mexican Standard!! You could see the screws for the neck pickup and the bright maple neck on the big screen.

[George Brown]

i suppose "tone" was a bit vauge mabey resonance is a better word, and sustain is a more appaerent advantage of this mehtod

in response to mattia's comment about it make a neck through if the joint goes to he bridge this method alows for a maple top, this could be done on neck thru but then you could argue why not make a deep set neck tennon?

[TheCross]

I'm really interested in that topic as well... so mattia: how long are your tenons if not 12"? where exactly do your neck end? do you use no glue at all? just real tight fit and a top?

[Mattia]

I'm really interested in that topic as well... so mattia: how long are your tenons if not 12"? where exactly do your neck end? do you use no glue at all? just real tight fit and a top?

The tenon runs to between the middle or the neck-end edge of the bridge pickup cavity. I kind of work with what I've got, sort of wing it. It's solidly glued in to both top and back, recesses in each part.

[George Brown]

mattia you resess the tennon into your top?

1) how thick are your tops

2) most people seem to avoid this, what is your reasoning behind it?

[fryovanni]

The question covers too much ground for a yes or no answer. Not to mention deep set tenion is no more difficult than a set or bolt or even neck thru. I believe Russ hit the nail on the head regarding minimizing/increasing the role of body/neck wood on tone. The debate about sustain will probably be strongest for neckthru given that you can capture the strings/bridge in the same piece of material, but how much of an increase that provides seems to be slight v.s. any well made joint. You do lose the bolt-on's flexability in terms of ease of replacement if needed(a huge plus for bolt on). Actually I recall a thread some time ago about deep set bolt ons. It seemed to be a nice blending of the strengths of both(nice middle ground). Here is that thread that came to mind-Topic

The deep sets I have done cature the bridge pickup but not the bridge. I have always leveled the body and covered with drop tops. Nothing wrong with the joint at all, but I personally prefer neckthru because I am more used to that method.

Peace,Rich

[Mattia]

Yes, I do. The reason most people avoid this, I suspect, is because it's a bit of a pain in the butt to do. Much easier to just plane it all flat and glue the top on, after all. Why...well, I prefer the solidity of it that way, plus it means my top cannot slip around at all while gluing. Look ma, no brads needed! Mostly I think it's that joinery geekage. It's kind of fun to do, and, while nailing that joint is very satisfying, it's not one anyone can pick out flaws in. I square off the tenon so it's an even height protruding from the body, so the mortise in the top can be cut with a router and no crazy jigs.

My tops vary in thickness, often up to 3/4" - 7/8" thick at the highest point (generally the bridge), with a primary angle planed into the top from the bridge to the neck (so that the top by the neck joint isn't much more than 3/8"-1/2" or so...ish. I build one-offs, essentially, each one slightly different, and the carve sort of carves itself and I build the rest of the angles around it).

Personally, I like 1-piece and center jointed bodies more than neck-throughs for electrics, but I prefer to give my tenon as much solid ground as I can give it.

[George Brown]

thanks for that mattia, making the tennon that rises from the body level in hieght then routing the top is something i didnt even think of yet it makes so much sence, really glad i joined this forum your opinons and ideas really help

[JIFRibeiro]

???????

[Mickguard]

joinery geekage

Just thought this was worthy of being highlighted. Carry on.

[rokeros]

Try a mcnaught style "Set Thru" joint if you really want an enhanced tone and stuff. At least their theory makes more sense than Ed Rom**

The McNaught "SET-THRU" NECK®

Explanation of the Innovation

by David Thomas McNaught

When people hear that McNaught guitars are built with "SET-THRU" NECK® construction, they usually don’t get too excited. After all, they think, “set neck… neck through… I’ve heard it all before.. nothing new, right?”

Well… wrong! Maybe if we changed the name to “incredibly-innovative-all-new-all-different-deep-pocket-augmented-extension-neck-mounting-technique-to-increase-

and-improve-sustain-volume-and-tone-like-nothing-you’ve-ever-heard-or-played-before”, they’d get a better idea of what the "SET-THRU" NECK® is all about.

Hmmmm….Somehow “Set-Thru Neck” seems to flow a bit better… I guess there’s a bit of explaining to do.

"SET-THRU" NECK®: in these words lies the secret of a revolutionary technique that has been painstakingly perfected as one of the cornerstones of McNaught quality. It’s so amazingly simple, and at the same time, so intricately dependent on unique experience and specialized skill, that I can tell you all about it here without spilling the beans on what’s actually a trade secret.

Background: a neck-through guitar is one like the original Les Paul (“The Plank”). It’s a full length neck with body “wings” glued on. A set neck on the other hand is simply a neck that’s glued tight into a fitted socket. The "SET-THRU" NECK® is a combination of the set-neck (Gibson, PRS) and the neck-thru (Jackson, ESP). It keeps a whopping TWELVE INCHES of neck INSIDE the body cavity for amazing tone transfer and sustain, without the sound-sapping (and ugly) necessity for the body to be made of multiple pieces of glued-together wood.

When I first began building guitars, they all were built using a standard set neck. I had read an interview with another guitar company that talked about how their neck extended more than 5” into the guitar body. I read another interview with another guitar company that said their neck extended even deeper. However, when I investigated these guitrs, I found a problem. The Gibson Nashville Tune-O-Matic bridge is elevated from the guitar body to such an extent that the neck needs to be angled back up to 6º. To make this possible against a flat body, the deep set-neck guitars of the past were built in such a way that the butt of the neck was unable to make much contact with the body pocket.

Common sense told me that a good mechanical junction of the neck-butt and the body pocket was critical if maximum sound energy is to be transferred between the two primary parts of the instrument. Think of it like this: would you feel more vibration from an engine in if you pressed on the hood of a car with one finger or with your entire palm?

Eureka! My theory was that it would make more sense to somehow get my 12” extension into the body at a uniform depth. To the drawing board I went. After several months of experiments and designs, I was able to come up with a set of custom jigs that would allow me to tool a 12” neck extension at uniform depth through transverse section of the guitar body.

I swear that from this sentence forward, I will speak to you as one guitar player to another. No more shop talk.

The prototype guitar surprised me, because I didn’t imagine I’d hear such a difference before I even plugged it in. I remembered reading a quote years ago in a guitar magazine. Eddie Van Halen said that a great electric guitar would always sound great when it was played without an amp. The truth of that statement materialized for me as the first E chord ever played on a "SET-THRU" NECK® guitar rang out. It was louder. If it means anything, it was more musical, because there was more OF it. My theories were proven true: it sustained for an eternity. It sounded awesome.

Besides more and more and more of what I heard acoustically (killer sustain, powerful volume, and clear rich tone), the juice brought out something that let me know I had reached my destination. The word that comes to mind needs some explanation though, because it’s tossed around to mean so many different things: the guitar had real presence. A McNaught "SET-THRU" NECK® guitar is more musically "present" because it cuts through a band or a mix more than its set-neck predecessor ever could. And it isn’t just about volume (any guitar can get louder, but if it’s ugly when it’s quiet, it will just be amplified ugly when you crank it up). Think of it like stage presence—you recognize a star because you feel something you can't really explain. It's that same kind of guitar "star quality" that projects from an instrument with the "SET-THRU" NECK®. It’s more than tremendous tone. More than the solid feel. It’s in the way it does everything you always wished an electric guitar would.

I suspect that this innovation is one of the main reasons you’ll be as proud to own and play my guitars as I am to offer them to you with my name on every one. That's why I had to spell it out for you here. So next time you hear the words “"SET-THRU" NECK®" think twice before you write it off as the same old same old…

Thanks for your continued appreciation!

David Thomas McNaught

Edited May 24, 2006 by rokeros

[Mickguard]

Just goes to show you can trademark anything. I just registered set-through and glued-thru as my own. I also wrote the Bible .

Mattia, maybe one of the lawyer types around here can set you up with a trademark for 'joinery geekage' ?

Oops, believe McNaught got that one already too! Anyone else find it interesting that he trademarks a phrase--then uses other companies' guitar designs? Sorry, don't mean to take the Mickey out of him.

I like the idea of a longer tenon too, especially for a double-cutaway, where there's not much meat on the sides of the neck at the joint. But you're pretty much required to use a top, or at least a huge pickguard for a 12" tenon, angled or otherwise. Won't work for a humble one piece solidbody.

I like Southpa's idea too:

My original neckthru design incorporates the neck portion sleeved INSIDE the body halves, only one seam on the outside.

Anyway, if you route the neck pocket using a angle-jig like Myka's, the butt end of the tenon will still fit against the back of the pocket, right?