My First Guitar Project

[George Brown]

First off YAY, my first guitar project has begun !!!

I am planning to build a prs singlecut style guitar. I say singlecut rather than les paul as I prefer the treble cutaway, straight string pull and one piece bridge. im finding quite hard to even think about getting another guitar that I wont build, there are aftermarket upgrades everywhere so why not "get it right" the first time? The specs will be as follows;

Construction

Wendge neck with deep set tenon 25 inch scale length

Kingwood fretboard (ebonized)

K-T-S titanium truss rod and re-inforcement rods

Stainless steel frets

Inlay undecided

Kornia (limba) body

Quilted/flammed maple top (havent quite made my mind up)

Hardware

TonePros AVT-II bridge with locking studs

K-T-S titanium saddles

TonePros kluson tuners

Tusq nut (buzz feiten tunning system)

Electronics

Lace music DP-100 neck pickup

Lace music DP-150 bridge pickup

CTS pots

Tone controls will fade between the pickups in series and paralell

Conductive paint shielded cavities

Planet waves output jack (Includes a shielding sleeve and multiple contact points)

Finish

Dark purple top (polyurethane)

Black back and sides (polyurethane)

No finish on the neck (may have on the headstock)

I think thats eveything. A few things to clear up i know i cannot fit the buzz feiten tunning system that will be done by an authorized dealer. You may not have of heard of K-T-S, but there titanium parts have had good things said about them no there not as good as they want you to belive there still a good improvement, DeTemple guitars are using them after all. The one concern I have is making the neck too strong there was a mention of this on Stewart Macs free information on neck construction. I pressume what is ment be this is thats the truss rods affectiveness is reduced (ie its harder for the truss rod to bow the neck), but my action isnt too low so this may not be a problem if there is a problem with the neck being too stiff.

I dont know when the build will start right now im making plans and want to check everything before anything is set in stone or wood

Comments on this are welcome, thats actualy the reason for this post

Edited April 23, 2006 by George Brown

[GregP]

Sounds good! The actual sillhouette of the singlecut is identical to the LP, but its carved treble cutaway gives it a much more elegant appearance, IMO.

Where do you source your KTS parts? I'd be curious to have a peek to see what they offer.

As for the Buzz Feiten thing, you can still make your own compensated nut, which if done right can be in the same league of effectiveness. He's not the first person to do a compensated nut, he's just the first person who took the time to work out thousands of calculations based on string guage, etc. It's his math that's "important", but compensating your own nut will still give you similar results.

Greg

[George Brown]

thanks greg, i totaly agree with the comment you made about the cutaway. As for KTS here are some usefull links;

you can purchase them from WD Music (sorry its the uk site but i couldnt find them on US site)

their homepage is here

some good DeTemple links are here and here also you might want to see this

thier truss rods and re-inforcements are not currently offered comercialy so you will need to contact them for that stuff

hope that helps

UPDATE-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------l

the tone pros kluson tunners apparently have titanium parts acording to wd music here's the reply i recived via e-mail

"Good Evening,

These are actually a sealed tuner with a 16:1 ratio and titanium inner parts. Turn very smooth and accurately with no lashback. Very high quality.

Regards

David Lewis

WD Music Products, Inc.

David-Lewis@wdmusicproducts.com"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------l

As for compensated tunning as far as i understand it it goes something like this

frets are positioned on a formula made by good old pythagoras, however he made one slight error :O he did not take into acount string tension, thus the first few frets are sharp adn this is compensated by moving the nut slightly closer to the bridge. this is shown well here on the earvana webpage (another compensated tunning system) But yeh it could be done individualy, i mean its a bit of a rip off when you think about it £120 for a mesurment. I dont mean do sound lazy but im sure some will work it out and put it up on the web

Edited April 23, 2006 by George Brown

[Setch]

Sounds good! The actual sillhouette of the singlecut is identical to the LP

Maybe to a blind man in dark cellar! They are both single cutaways with lower bouts wider than the upper, but that's about it. Seriously, overlay the two shapes in a graphics package and you'll see they have very different outlines - at least as different as a LP and a tele for example.

[Maiden69]

I'm with Setch, they are completely different! Especially the single cut side,

[GregP]

I AM basing my opinion on seeing them overlayed in a graphics package. When the whole lawsuit came up, somebody did just that, and discovered that they were identical. I'm willing to be convinced that I'm wrong, but I don't have the patience to go ahead and do it myself. Perhaps a search on the internet or even on this forum would reveal said pic.

Heck, Setch, you're well-known as a DC guy... you're aware at how staggeringly similar even the "modern" (ie. not the original Santana) PRS is to an LP DC, right? The offset certainly tells us that they are different beasts, but in an overlay like the one you describe, you shake your head and go, "damn, I never woulda guessed how close they still are."

That's the case with the Singlecut, too. The small things (headstock type, very different carve, different bridge, different control placement) give us the illusion that the pure black sillhouette must be quite different, too. But they're not. At least, not in my memory which I'll admit to not placing absolutely 100% faith in.

Even if I turn out to be wrong, "completely different" is the overstatement of the day.

Regarding compensated tuning-- details aside, it comes down to the fact that if you're closer to the nut, particularly if your nut slots are cut too high, you will pull your string sharp. Because the varying guages aren't absolutely identical in terms of distributing string tension, the B string in particular is easier to pull sharp, even compared to, say, the D string fretted at the same fret. Since the fretted notes aren't being pulled sharp evenly, and especially in contrast to open strings that aren't sharp at all, tuning on a guitar is pretty much a compromise.

A carefully-cut "normal" nut or a zero fret should both intonate pretty well unless you like your action really high, so those are two options without going for a compensated nut. The pre-cut Earvana-type nuts still operate under the same principles as other compensated nuts like the Buzz Feitin, but the quality and price difference comes down to:

Earvana: We're going to adjust the "common" problems with an average compensation that should work relatively well for most guitars and a variety of guages. A bit of compensation on the B string, even if not scientifically measured, will still be better than no compensation!

Feitin: Tell us exactly your string guage, scale length, and work with our technician so that he can see if you're a heavy- or light-handed fretter. Based on these criteria, we'll come up with a precise compensation that should meet your needs. Plus, we'll show you how to use a tempered tuning to maximize your experience, rather than just using a mathmatically-"perfect" tuning.

Now, the way I've ennumerated what Feitin does shouldn't (I hope) imply that it's magic. People on this board who make their own compensated nuts do so in much the same way. They know from experience and from dealing with their clients (or selves, for self-builds) how the guages differ and how playing style affects compensation, PLUS they know to go bit-by-bit until the right compensation is reached. It's doable (though not by me, I'll say!). As stated earlier, though, a properly-cut "normal" nut or a zero fret might be enough of a compromise that compensation won't seem like a big requirement anymore anyhow.

Greg

[Maiden69]

I don't consider it an overstatement... unless we are going to say that because they are single cut they are all the same. I had both guitar in my hands and are 2 completely different beasts. The LP is clumsy and bulky while the PRS is more finessed. That they shape the same geometry, I give you that, but to me, and even you if you had both in front of you to compare, they will be very very different.

[GregP]

The LP is also much thicker, in terms of the body and the neck. Which is something not visible in the sillhouette view. The heel of the neck is very different, also not identifiable with silhouette.

That's all I'm saying.

It's NOT as clear a difference as a Telecaster and and LP, or an Axis and a Telecaster. They're far more similar to one another than any other singlecuts that I could name. Even a Yamaha Pacifica "tele" (302S) and a Fender "tele" have more differences between them in terms of just the body.

Greg

[George Brown]

looking at the two guitars side by side where the upper horn meets the rest of the body (above the gap inbetween the pickups) the prs has a more gentle slope that the gibson, but thats what i can see (body depth is another factor) anyways its not like im going to buy prs and trace it when i draw it up it will be to suit me but i have a feeling that'l be the prs shape. but who cares anyway the courts have decided

GergP what did you think of KTS?

[GregP]

In any event, I suspect I'll get no peace, so I did what Setch suggested, and my findings were exactly what I expected. Some very subtle differences WERE present when comparing the two photos I could find. Without access to 2 official "absolutely straight-on" shots or schematics, this isn't very scientific, but here's a blend of the two. The PRS is a bit more oblong in the lower bout featuring the electronics cavity-- but as I was getting at, it's the carve of the cutaway in the PRS that makes it "look" different, because our eye follows the shiny line of the carve and not the actual silhouette. There's also a very slight difference in angle coming out of the "waist". It's enough that I'm willing to concede that I'm ALSO guilty of overstatement: it's clearly not "identical" after all.

But "a blind man in a dark cellar"? The differences are subtle, and it's the human brain's capacity for interpretation of detail (primarily, in this case, the carves and hardware) that allow us to so easily differentiate. It's not the silhouette.

In any event, here's the blended shot... dunno if it makes any sense to anyone else-- it's easy for me to see what's going on because I have the "opacity" fader that I can fade in and out... without realtime control over the fader, it might just look like a mess:

The Les Paul's binding is peeking through the transparent PRS at the bottom right, and the PRS is not about 0.5 cm less deep at the waist on the left there. The cutaway horn is actually fairly identical even though that's where most people will have the illusion of seeing the difference. In the right side of the waist, don't let the jaggies from extracting the photo throw you off... the edge of the jaggies is NOT the edge of the PRS. And again, reminding that it's not all completely perfect or scientific.

In summary:

"absolutely identical" -- nope

but it IS a huge overstatement of the case to say that they're completely different. They're at least "almost" identical. Like identical (appearance-wise) twins who you can still tell apart because of our brain's sophisticated ability to separate differences. Present the kind of twins that are physically identical to one-another to new friends, and it'll be a while before they can tell the difference. But once you're around them for a bit, it'll become obvious. This is the same. Present the sihouette (which is what we're talking about-- the rest is a dead giveaway) twins to someone not "friends" with them (a non-guitar-person) and they won't know the difference. Give them a few years of intimate familiarity (in some of our cases, a lifetime of familarity with the LP) and they'll spot the difference.

That kind of subtle difference doesn't warrant the "blind man" OR the "completely different" comments.

George-- the KTS stuff looks interesting! I don't know if I'd buy TOOoo heavily into their "vibration" and "hexagonal crystalline structure" arguments, but the part looks to be -quality-, which is important enough, scientific justification aside.

[Nitefly SA]

they are a lot more similar than i thought

[Setch]

That's a pretty poor example Greg - around the time of the lawsuit I traced the outlines and overlaid them, and the differences are very visible. The lower bout is round on a Les Paul, whereas the PRS has a flattened end to the body. The curve of the LP's upper bout is a smooth, round curve, whereas the PRS has a compound curve with a tightish radius at the widest point. The horn on the PRS is sharper, the cutaway larger, and the waist is wider and proportionally further up the body.

They are really not the same shape, similar, but were discussing guitars, which are fundamentally similar shapes anyway!

Oh, and the blind man, dark cellar thing is just a turn of phrase

**Edit** Sorry George! Didn't mean to steer the thread off course; I nearly added a preemptive apology for doing so when I posted the response above. Let's just all agree I'm right, and say no more about it :D

[George Brown]

this is a fiar enough debate guys but come on im sure there are other threads for this argument no offence but at the end of the day there both good gui tars

[GregP]

Sorry, George! I'm not offended at all if a moderator deletes the unrelated posts. ;-) In the meantime, while waiting for them to be cleaned up, let it be said that I maintain despite my admittedly "poor" example that the similarities are shocking in the silhouette, because the REST of the guitar is so obviously different.

The rest of the debate has gone to friendly (not angry!) PM.

Good luck George!

Greg

[George Brown]

slight change to the design, well not exactly a change. i hadnt decided on the inlay. i had always wanted something like Sims Custom offer but could never afford it. then i saw the thread on fibre optics on this forum. and as of now this idea is now part of my design. i plan to have the system on the front facing dots and mabey the side dots depending on how much space it will require. the idea is to have the dots on the bass side like on some ibanez's (e.g. john petrucci's old model) but with a consistant small size. on a previous thread a guy doing only the side makers but never got finished and another were the link to the tutorial didnt work. im confident that i could do it myself. there are a few things i need to know how flexible is fibre optical cable (enough to bend at almost 90 degrees as i plan the route the channel on the bass side, this however may affect the internal refraction). as for the light source i would install and led in the neck pick-up cavity to iluminate the cable. and for the final part the dots themselves, would i use regular dots with holes in or clear plastic. Sims custom offers mop ablone and magnifier lenses im curios to see hoe thos might work. as i am unfamiliar with inlays could it be possible to cut the mop or ablone be cut so thinly it would be transparent, then use a clear plastic the fill the hole hieght.

there are people on this forum who have done this so would this work?

[George Brown]

another question for those in the know,

ill be blunt and get to the point, its about neck angle.

now in a interview with paul reed smith (guitarist issue 262 (april 2005)) he said that the ody face was angled with the stings so the pick-up height rings were the same. however surely the bridge height is raised with this effectivly "canceling out" if you will the neck angle. is the brigde (talking about wraparoud here) resessed into the body or something?, iv never really looked at a prs from the side and cant seem to find any pics. what are your thoughts on the subject?

p.s. i know he uses warparound or trems which have lower neck angles than say a tom

[Setch]

The PRS fretboard is raised a little off the front of the guitar, much like on a strat or tele. The more you raise it, the less you need to angle it, but the further from the body the strings will be (by the neck).

I raised the fretboard a little on my last, and like how it looks and feels. I did purely for cosmetics, so that the purfling of the fretoboard would have contrasting dark Pau Ferro next to it - if it was flush with the top the maple would sit next to the sycamore and look less snappy.

The PRS fretboard is raised a little off the front of the guitar, much like on a strat or tele. The more you raise it, the less you need to angle it, but the further from the body the strings will be (by the neck).

I raised the fretboard a little on my last, and like how it looks and feels. I did purely for cosmetics, so that the purfling of the fretoboard would have contrasting dark Pau Ferro next to it - if it was flush with the top the maple would sit next to the sycamore and look less snappy.

[George Brown]

thanks for the responce, the idea works in theroy and practise (as you have shown) perfectly and dose elimintate the need for those tall (and ugly IMO) pick-up rings but any ideas about "angling the body face" ?

[George Brown]

i know i dont post regularly on this thread as i am doing my G.C.S.E's at the mo'

unfortunatly the project will be firther held up due the following

Hi George, Thank you for your E-mail and making choice of our titanium saddles on your guitar. Your interest of our products is greatly appreciated . The truss rod you found at our site is just a trial product and there are much need to be improved in strength. DeTemple are not testing them yet. We are supplying some reinforcements to the guitar manufacturers like as Ibanez. Sometime we produce some single action truss rods by request from our clients. We have some distributors in foreign country but unfortunately they carry only saddles. If you want to purchase the reinforcements or truss rod from us, please let us know the size (length) of them. Once again - thank you for your interest in our products. Best Regards, Hiroshi Masuda KTS Musical Products Inc.

looks like i'll just have to sit and wait for a bit longer

[Robert_the_damned]

IMHO I think a Titanium truss rod and renforcements might be a little overkill. Most production guitars live long lives with just a normal truss rod. Many builders here reinforce with Carbon Fiber rods for extra 'insurance'. So you might want to look at other alternatives. Titanium IS stong and light but I think its probably not going to make a lot of differance to say a steel truss rod because there's just not that much force in the neck; there's a fair bit yes but not so much that you need to go to such extremes.

Robert

[Mattia]

The reason to go with titanium is strength for weight, surely? I wouldn't mind doing it, but the prices I've seen (think about 50 bucks for a titanium rod) make me think it's really not worth the hassle. Other than the 'wow, cool!' factor, the supposed benefits sound more like marketing speak than much else.

I know of one bass builder who makes them himself, threads the rods on a metal turning lathe, and if I had that kind of machining at my disposal - leading to significant cost decreses, just material costs - I might very well consider going for Ti rods. As it stands...not s'much.

Dual CF rods+ regular dual action rod = works great.

[Guest AlexVDL]

.

[Setch]

Wow - that is suprsingly close. I still stand by my point that they are quite distinctly different in appearance, but that's a much better overlay than the one I produced, and I can't argue with what it shows!

I guess I should offer an apoogy to Greg too - looks like you were far more correct than I gave you credit for, sorry fella!

[GregP]

No worries, mate!