Starter Shop Setup For Solid Results

[Prostheta]

Hi all! I'm new to the board as a member, but I've been doing my research and reading like a good boy

Basically, I have floorspace in a converted garage which I'm making use of as a guitar shop. My current tooling short of the obvious hand power drills, screwdrivers etc. are:

- Bosch router (1/4" shank)

- 10" table saw

- Sheet sander

- Dremel

- Angle grinder

- Spokeshave

I'm considering the following tools to complement these:

- Reciprocating bobbin sander

- Thicknesser, possibly a combination with planer

- Bandsaw

I've decided to take the full hands on approach and build necks. I couldn't say "yeah, I made that" if I used a Stewmac thru neck eh?

Forgive the links here, but these are the tools I'm considering. I'm not wanting to spend *too* much money on the tooling but I don't want to waste money on tools that won't give me the results I expect of course.

BOBBIN SANDER

Great! 14-1/2" x 10-1/2" (37cm x 27cm) platen which makes me happy. I presume that having at least half of the guitar body on the platen at any one time should make for some kickass perpendicular sanded edges eh? The vertical travel and usable height is more than enough for say, 2" (5cm) thick bodies.

DeWalt DW734 thicknesser

Maximum width capacity 12-1/2" (~31.5cm) which in my mind is too small for thicknessing 1-piece body blanks, or 2/3 piece made blanks. I measured one of my EXPs, and they pop in about 19" (~48cm) which is wayloads. That said, good quality equipment or so I'm lead to believe. The alternative would be a cheaper model such as:

Clarke CPT250 thicknesser

Cheaper (trans. affordable) tool, with a width capacity of 10" (25cm).

I perceive my working process on say, a 2-piece body to be:

1 - get wood (heh)

2 - roughly cut body blank pieces to size left and right

3 - quick couple of runs through the thicknesser to bring the most out-of-line side into line with the "best" side

4 - hand sand newly planed face level checking with straightedge

5 - re-thickness boards with levelled edge downfacing

6 - plane glue edge using router table to create 1" straightedge a few mm into sideface, flip over and use flush trim router to complete entire sideface

7 - use bobbin sander with HomeMadeStraightEdgeGuide™ to finish glue edge

8 - glue, clamp etc.

The neck is where it gets interesting. I intend on making a couple of basses (prob. more if I get into it) but to strengthen the necks with a couple of carbon rods (no-brainer router work, yawn) and with differing wood laminates. I love Jeff Miller's PRS/Variax project in that the neck has two lovely bloodwood stripes. Now, given that say I can't acquire the wood for those stripes ready cut - can thicknessers handle wood that thin and achieve good results? As a rough calc in my head, each piece of bloodwood would have to be circa 31-1/2" x 3/16" x 2-3/8" (800mm x 5mm x 60mm). How would it be best to achieve this short of paying someone else to do it? The table saw I have isn't delicate enough to reliably leave a 1cm thick piece of wood, and it sounds awesomely wasteful if I leave it thicker, and let the thicknesser take away the rest. I presume a bandsaw would come in nicely here....

At this point it may be worth taking a breather from my constant train of thought here also

Back to the show. I like David Myka's idea for rough shaping neck contours. It makes the process less mystifying and more manageable for the beginner. It does however point out that a 1/4" shank router doesn't get all the awesome toys 1/2" shank routers get. For shame! Would I be best investing in a second 1/2" router? Bit of a bite here considering I already have one. Would I get the mileage out of it?

Clamps! There are SO many clamps available, but what would make a good usable selection? From the photos I've seen of luthiers laminating maple to bodies, etc. it seems everyone has a million of them. Shame I can't (well, "don't want to have to") afford a million, so what would be the best quantity and number of clamps to invest in? The tasks I perceive to be using them for are for laminate necks and laminate tops - these seem to bring out the biggest clamp monster in luthiers! THIS STORE have pretty good prices and are local to me, so price stands against shipping otherwise I'd love a million clamps from Stewmac!

Oh yes ->

On the topic of Stewmac - I've looked at the fretting tools and supplies, but baulked at the prices as I have to consider shipping and import on this deal. I've read arguments for and against hand-hammering frets versus fret presses. I am tempted by the Stewmac fret press caul as it's not too much of a hit and looks like a confident tool. Any comments?

I think I'll leave it here else I'll spend the rest of the afternoon talking and not achieving anything "in the real world"

Must try and get my arse down to Norwich and go shopping for wood.

PS. Any UK members from around the Lincolnshire area?

[Ben]

PS. Any UK members from around the Lincolnshire area? icon_wavey.gif

West Yorkshire- so not too far.

After just finishing my first neck I can tell you that its a lot less intimidating than you'd imagine. You should have no trouble with it- especially with all those tools- so I think you made a good decision to make your own.

[Prostheta]

Thanks Ben. I've been getting myself up to speed on a cheap piece of mahogany I bought in Market Harborough. I thought of trying a piece of general scrap, but I wanted to gauge tearout and workability on "real" woods when routing. I think a good rasp would be an investment for sure, but the bobbin sander seems an oft-undermentioned tool which I think would be an awesome bit of kit.

People's comments on using angle grinders for carving are so totally true. Despite me using a stone cutting wheel (yes, I need a flap disc!) I've made a really spot on tummy cut in the LP doublecut body I made in the mahogany.

I think my first "real" project would be a copy of my old ESP Mirage. I miss that baby. Not a difficult project either apart from the top carve - have-angle-grinder, will-achieve etc!

What was everyone else's "starter shop"?

Edited July 8, 2006 by Prostheta

[guitarchump]

Im my shop all I have is a 14 inch Canwood bandsaw, a mastercraft 10 inch drill press i got for 30 bucks, bocsh router, and hand tools, Id have to say the tool i use the most is a scraper and the router. Really if i didnt buy wood i needed to saw i wouldnt use the band saw really besides the speed factor.

A table saw would be really nice tho but i dont know if a small 10 inch can handle some of the hard wood luthiers throw at tools. So i dont know where to start shopping for one.

Jeff

[Ben]

What was everyone else's "starter shop"?

My starter 'shop' was my garage floor and my grandads rusted tool collection...

My current 'shop' is a kitchen counter in my garage, plus a router, a power drill and a jigsaw, and a few more slightly specialised tools like a spokeshave.

I've come into a bit more money recently (today actually), and I'm considering buying a few more tools though.

Sounds like a cool project!

And welcome to the forum too! didnt catch that bit about it being your first post.

[Prostheta]

The table saw isn't anything spectacular (apart from it was free I guess) but it went through 2" African mahogany really well. Not exactly a precision instrument of course! When it comes to rough cutting lumber, it's pretty spot on. It's a bit disturbing to see a 3mm wide kerf appearing as you cut though. You start seeing money fly past your face at that point.

Would I be right in thinking that a bandsaw would pretty much obviate the usefulness of a table saw? Hell, all it does is cut things in half really!

edit: This looks like a good deal on a free-standing bandsaw to me....

Edited July 8, 2006 by Prostheta

[Prostheta]

Thanks again Ben. My workshop is a single garage (although "single garage" to most non-UK people means 100sq yd with lighting, power and air con!! heh) with a solid wooden fire door sat on two sawhorses. Good bench. I'd kit the place out further, but making guitars is a short term project for me until I work the place into a small home studio. Either that or we move into a house with both :-)

I suppose I could burn as much as is burnable on hundreds of specific tools, but I'd rather get the few tools that teach you what you're doing, and buy good ones at that. I couldn't say I created anything if I CNCed it for instance (despite working CAD as a dayjob!).

Everyone hold you spokeshaves in the air and cheer!!

It's like the thicknesser for example. I could buy a combination planer/thicknesser (at higher cost of course) which would allow me to plane the glue edges of bodies as well as thickness, but hell! I can set up a router to do that at the cost of a few screws, a chunk of wood and a couple of router bits!

So, to expand on the "what was your starter shop tool setup" question - what was your best made purchase?

I've got to say, it was the binding cutter and roundover bits :-)

[MidnightLamp]

I'm currently on to building my third guitar, and have a lot of expensive tools, but can't afford the bits/blades for most of them to make them useful, so I tend to approach things from a very money concious angle and still produce good looking results.

IMO, a setup to consider would be:

Router: First and formost! You can almost build a whole guitar with one of these! Good starting bits: Roundover (I'd go with 1/8" or 1/16" for any ESP/jackson style guitars), pattern bit(bottom bearing), template bit(top bearing). I'd also go with a 1/2" shank, because it can then take the larger pattern bit's, and acts to trim the outline of the guitar well.

Bandsaw/Scroll Saw: When access to my good bandsaw is not there, I use a scroll saw to cut the bodies out of wood. I don't particularly like using my table saw, as then I can only cut large rectantgles out of the wood I have, and it causes more wastage

Drill Press: Finish sanding, any holes, etc... one of the most useful tools in my shop. With a drum sander and MDF table, works as a great body finishing tool

Hand Sander: A nice 1/2 sheet sander will work great when it comes to finishing up the top of a guitar.

Smaller Wood Tools: Planes (you can't just buy one...but a jack plane'll do...around here, you can get samona ones for about $20, and with a bit of work, and a new blade, these things'll work great! Spokeshaves are great for rough carving of a neck (I personally don't use mine much...) again, Samona ones go cheap, and work great if you can hone the blade well, and put a bit of work into it.

Assorted Hand tools: rasps...files...etc etc...

but again...ultimately, it depends on how you want to approach building your guitar.

[Prostheta]

I'm currently on to building my third guitar, and have a lot of expensive tools, but can't afford the bits/blades for most of them to make them useful, so I tend to approach things from a very money concious angle and still produce good looking results.

I agree totally. I don't want to overspend on the tooling as it tends to be cool to have that fret-dressing-spoon-monkey-lacquer-handkerchief™ thing, but half the time these things never serve their purpose and get sidelined. Effort and thought vs. overtooling I reckon.

I get the impression I'll spend a helload on new router bits when they start to tear out, yeah?

IMO, a setup to consider would be:

Router: First and formost! You can almost build a whole guitar with one of these! Good starting bits: Roundover (I'd go with 1/8" or 1/16" for any ESP/jackson style guitars), pattern bit(bottom bearing), template bit(top bearing). I'd also go with a 1/2" shank, because it can then take the larger pattern bit's, and acts to trim the outline of the guitar well.

I guess I'll have to bite the bullet on that one. Two routers are better than one I guess.

Bandsaw/Scroll Saw: When access to my good bandsaw is not there, I use a scroll saw to cut the bodies out of wood. I don't particularly like using my table saw, as then I can only cut large rectantgles out of the wood I have, and it causes more wastage

I have a particularly anaemic scroll saw which I've decided to keep purely for shaping covers and inlays. Not enough power or tension in the blade to saw anything thicker than those! The bandsaw is definitely on the buy-list.

Drill Press: Finish sanding, any holes, etc... one of the most useful tools in my shop. With a drum sander and MDF table, works as a great body finishing tool

I'm dead set on the drill press also. Too many opportunities to screw things up else! That and the fret press caul from Stewmac looks like a good investment in combination with a drill press! How DO you press frets in when the caul is spinning between 200 to 2500rpm, I don't know! I presume you select a LOW speed eh?

The Robosander attachment from Stewmac also looks a total investment, although I think the bobbin sander might make this redundant.

Hand Sander: A nice 1/2 sheet sander will work great when it comes to finishing up the top of a guitar.

Worth it's weight in gold IMO. Unless you really wanted to trade it's weight in for gold just to buy more sanders!

Smaller Wood Tools: Planes (you can't just buy one...but a jack plane'll do...around here, you can get samona ones for about $20, and with a bit of work, and a new blade, these things'll work great! Spokeshaves are great for rough carving of a neck (I personally don't use mine much...) again, Samona ones go cheap, and work great if you can hone the blade well, and put a bit of work into it.

Assorted Hand tools: rasps...files...etc etc...

This is the scary bit however. I've never been one for the patience to hunt for *that* tool. Maybe I should consider a tidier, more organised setup before installing the clutter!

Oh, I forgot to adjust my signature somewhat....ah, that's better!

I was wondering where to get a huge radius roundover bit similar to the one David Myka uses to rough out neck radii. It has to be a 1/2" shank purely on the basis that my router is 1/4" of course. Life is like that.

[Ben]

Your signiture is cool, but I'm afraid it wont last long before a mod gets it; read the rules.

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=11235

I once had dancing bananas galore in my signiture... but alas no longer.

Edited July 8, 2006 by Ben

[MidnightLamp]

I agree totally. I don't want to overspend on the tooling as it tends to be cool to have that fret-dressing-spoon-monkey-lacquer-handkerchief thing, but half the time these things never serve their purpose and get sidelined. Effort and thought vs. overtooling I reckon.

I get the impression I'll spend a helload on new router bits when they start to tear out, yeah?

I guess I'll have to bite the bullet on that one. Two routers are better than one I guess.

Heck ya! (you really can never have too many routers). If you buy a second one...get a big one so that you can allot all the tasks that are difficult to it (bigger the better =P). Now for the bits themselves, you'd think they wear out fast, but if you're really good to them, then they'll last a long time. I only buy whiteside and freud bits as they are available locally (the freud) and they are cheap/good (the whiteside). Personally, I treat my bits like my children, clean them after every use, and drill out/rough cut everything before using them to minimize stress. So far, my freud bit is not even close to being dull, and my whiteside roundover's look almost new! Either way, with quality bits like those two, you can always resharpen.

My bit collection current includes: 1/2" template (for everything), 1/2" x 2" pattern to finish the body outline, 1/8" roundover, 45deg campher (ya...I like pointy!), and one huge roundover for the neck carve. Came to about $100 for top quality stuff on all of those ($40 of which went towards the neck roundover)

I'm dead set on the drill press also. Too many opportunities to screw things up else! That and the fret press caul from Stewmac looks like a good investment in combination with a drill press! How DO you press frets in when the caul is spinning between 200 to 2500rpm, I don't know! I presume you select a LOW speed eh?

The Robosander attachment from Stewmac also looks a total investment, although I think the bobbin sander might make this redundant.

I personally just use robosander, because the pattern bit does a goot job for me, and I just run the body with the same template against a "custom" ( I just sprayed photomount on a cardboard cylinder, and put finishing grit on it) robosnader.

for the fret caul, you just run it with the drill press off.

I was wondering where to get a huge radius roundover bit similar to the one David Myka uses to rough out neck radii. It has to be a 1/2" shank purely on the basis that my router is 1/4" of course. Life is like that.

You can buy them at any woodworking shop, or routerbits.com:

http://www.routerbits.com/cgi-routerbits/s...390013_30963+28

good luck with setting up your shop, and welcome to the forum!

[Prostheta]

Thanks dude - I can see my English sarcasm went a little astray (over there --->.) on the fret press thing ;-)

I think I can live without the safety net once the bobbin sander is here!

Ben: I better think about the signature then in that case! Goddamnit. At least I'm not selling anything *bwah*.

[erikbojerik]

I can't speak to any of the brands of power tools you've posted, but I can comment on a few things.

Bandsaws: A "must have" in my opinion. It will not take the place of a table saw, you can't cross-cut large pieces and you'll not be happy with the result if you rip lumber on your bandsaw instead of the table saw. I have both.

Spindle sander: I really like them, especially for sanding in the cutaways. I have one from RIGID that doubles as a short oscillating belt sander, great for shaping the upper and lower bouts (much easier to get a smooth edge than if you use just the spindle). This one is mine:

Thickness planer: I have one, but only because I purchase my lumber in the "rough" unsanded. Search around more, there are models out there that take a 13" or 13-1/2" width (my RIGID goes 13-1/2"). It works great on straight-grained lumber, but highly figured stuff (i.e. quilted maple) will tear-out, this kind of wood needs a thickness sander.

Don't forget dust collection....a really good shop vac, or (better) a proper dust collection system with ~600 CFM minimum. Many kinds of dust will kill you slowly.

[guitarchump]

How does that thickness sander work for 1/4-1/8th material? Id love to get one for that but didnt know if it would just mutalate the wood. Thx

Jeff

[Prostheta]

Thanks for the info erik. I've been looking at extraction/collection because I hate sweeping and vacuuming. I'm not 100% sure whether my table saw has facility for collection, but given that it throws dust a million miles an hour in all directions I think I'd be better off investing in a deep sea diving suit for that one. Dust collection is high on the list of priorities given that most (all?) woods are sensitisers and rattle your lungs up a treat after a while.

I'm fully loving that oscillating belt/bobbin sander....I'm going to see if anyone can supply those in the UK....thanks man!!

guitarchump: I think the way to go with thicknessers is to classify them for their usage. Planer thicknessers are what I'd call "coarse" in that you're not looking for achieving the cosmetic look, more of a "predictable workable state" closer to your spec, from which you're ready to work towards the finished look. Sander thicknessers seem to be more "fine" in that you could pop a body through and you'd be happy to leave the result you get as say, the back of your guitar. I wouldn't trust the high speed knifing machines within a couple of mm of the finished thickness just in case fate strikes!

Cheapest "known" brand A bit on the pricey side considering planer thicknessers rattle in at 1/2 or 2/3 of the price. If it would obviate the need for a planer thicknesser then this would be super awesome. The maximum sanding capability is 25cm (9-15/16") on single pass, and double that if you reverse the piece. So it's entirely possible to do an entire glued up 2/3 piece body on this baby.

Best I've found for guitar work! This would rock severely, but I'd consider this commercial, or a lottery win toy!

Heh - I can only imagine the look of horror and fascination on my good friendly guitar tech's face when I run a blank through this. He already thinks I'm crazy considering the things I've achieved through "just getting down and doing it".

Ah ah ah ah!

I'll look at my budget on this one. I don't think I could trust the capability and "coarseness" of planer thicknessers to say, planing wood down to <5mm for neck laminates. How do people usually manufacture these, and what tooling is used? The two sources of wood I'm looking at right now are David Dyke's and North Heigham sawmills. I guess David Dyke would sell wood close to spec which would require minimal planer thicknessing, although I like the idea of going to a sawmill and picking up fair to decent instrument grade wood in large quantities with a trolley. Being well out of ideal spec, sawmill wood will need plenty of cutting and planing, but is a sander thicknesser a sufficient tool for this? The Tim Allen-ness of a sander thicknesser is playing on my mind now though. Goddamnit!!

Apologies for the length and possible contradictory posts. I tend to thoughtstream a lot because I believe projects are 90% planning and 1% work and 9% beer. Mathematically this works well in time saved, unless you double the beer ratio and introduce a 40% error factor and double the work. This becomes 18% beer, 2% work, 40% mistakes and 40% planning. That said, the beer reduces the efficacy of planning by 50%. The fine line is there!

To sum up (for those who would best skip to the ends of my posts of course):

- Will a sander thicknesser obviate the need for a planer thicknesser, given that I may be using rougher spec wood?

- Can planer thicknessers be trusted to finish wood thin enough for neck laminates in purpleheart/ebony/bloodwood/maple? (~4mm or ~5/32")

- Would I be best buying my wood from a luthier supply like David Dyke or buying rougher bulk from a sawmill that deals with instrument grade?

- Will having too much heavy grade machinery devalue the tangible pride and mojo in the resulting instrument?

- What are next weeks lottery numbers? Whoever answers this for me can have that big-ass industrial sander as a gift.

Edited July 9, 2006 by Prostheta

[Prostheta]

Meh - found an oscillating belt sander in the UK Erik - but it's huge!

Why oh why don't we have a decent mid-range of tools in the UK anymore?! Everything is either cheap and generic (read: useless) or it's designed for big results and steps up beyond hobbyist level?!

Pish. At least something like that would RULE for finishing internal perpendicular planes like these!

[Sambo]

Right.

Don't be affraid of using a planer thicknesser to get wood thin. Havent gone to 4mm, but i have to about 5 for fretboards. Get a decent planer thicknesser combo with a large bed, set it up properly and it will do you fine. Thickness sanders are expensive and probably not cost effective for what you want (better off spending it on a router or summut!).

As for figured wood, I haven't as much experience as some people here, but i find if you take it REALLY slow and thickness off say 1/3 or 1/4mm or even less if you have the patience (and accurate enough equipment!) in a pass you can avoid pretty much all tear out on flame maple. oh, and make sure your blades are stupidly sharp too.

Buying wood: Where dya think the 'music wood' places get their wood from? I don't think 60 quid for a mahogany body blank is on really. Considering you can buy the wood from a sawmill for £20 or less. Figured woods are probably best from these places. but check out places (3dhardwoods.com) over the pond. you dont have to pay her majesty for the privalege of shipping unfinished timber (or so i'm told, and i never have).

Too much machinery can be evil i think. but only if you don't know how to use it properly. Always figure out the best way of doing things with scrap wood and on a non-axe related project. but i dont think it makes it anyless satisfying.

And there are some good mid priced tools round. You just happen to be looking at axminster alot (quite expensive!!). Check out places that sell SIP and Metabo tools. SIP are cheap and generic sure, but as for not usable... Nope. 10" bandsaw does me fine as long as i keep a sharp blade on it. Metabo are a bit more expensive. but that thicknessplaner i bought... best thing ever and in my opinion more usable than a mate's dad's £2000+ massive big thing. and gives a better finish. Don't be fooled into thinking more expensive is always better. It ain't sometimes! One suggestion though. GET A DECENT ROUTER. i been through 3 **** ones, spend some on a decent one now. best thing i ever did.

Lottery numbers are 13-22-23-35-38-48 (for weds now )

Hope that helps.

S

[Prostheta]

Hey Sambo - I only just noticed that you're in Wales man. I might go test those numbers for gits and shiggles ;-)

Where do you tend to buy most of your wood from? I guess it'll cost you no more than it would me. Being green to most things in this area, i'm resorting to my usual research head and testing the waters with cheap sticks before getting my expensive boots wet so to speak.

As for Axminster, they just have the heads up in Google search listings for most things

I think an updated list of "things to buy" would be:

- bandsaw

- 1/2" shank router (decent)

- router table for jointing glue planes of bodies

- oscillating bobbin/belt sander (emailed Ridgid's UK distro)

- drill press with laser lining (good throat capacity - 13cm seems small to me)

- lottery ticket

The jury is still out on the thicknesser type though. I'd love to have both as thicknessing is probably the most mundane of jobs for building guitars, hence I think it can be relegated to the bit before the installation of true mojo, thereby keeping the I-Made-This factor closer to 100%. If the big JET machine will obviate the planer/thicknesser then cool. Instant big machinery!

Better go measure the door to see if I can fit big-ass things through it I guess. How stupid would I feel if I couldn't fit that £600 sander through the workshop door?

I'll do some shopping around on Metabo, Sambo. They seem pretty well recommended "over here" so it's an option for sure.

[Sambo]

As for wood, i have a pretty good mate (my ex gf!) who gives me alot of mahogany for nowt.

other places are north heigham sawmills (think thats how u spell it... google it), SLhardwoods.co.uk, exotichardwoods.co.uk (timberline), 3dhardwoods.com (in US but ships, and ends up 1/2 price of buying here), craftsupplies (good for fingerboards and bubinga, padauk etc). cant think of anymore off hand.

But hey.

I'm a student so i'm a bit of a skiv when it comes to buying tools. althoguh i did spend half a term's student loan on a thicknesser/planer thing. hummm... oh... GET A DUST EXTRACTOR!

As for sander. I'd get hold of a robosander and stick it in ur drill press and see how much you use it before buying a full on sander.

S

[Prostheta]

Considering what I've had to do as far as sanding work goes on the LPDC, lots! I can appreciated the Robosander being good for following template work, but I can colour within the lines so it's staying on the list, and not going into Room 101 ;-)

Will check out 3dhardwoods.com for sure - thanks!

How many projects have you completed Sambo?

[Sambo]

4, well actually two, as i cant afford to buy the hardware for the rest! ha h aha. gotta wait for the nest installment of the student loan

Actually, i'm just looking at getting a axminster modular router table (ie buy what you want, leave out stuff you don't. I'm planning on getting two table inserts and putting a router on one, and a drill in a stand with a robosander on the other hopefully should work quite well.

S

[Prostheta]

That sounds pretty cool. Any chance of sharing a link in this thread? I'm sure I can find it on Axminster, the amount of time I've been on there!

[Sambo]

http://www.axminster.co.uk/src/froogle/rec...Table-20862.htm

I'm just ordering the legs, tabletop and inserts (i have a spare no voltage release switch)

Looks good and ocmes to less than 100 squids. so hey!

S

[Prostheta]

Hmmm. I was actually considering mounting a router under the bench I have and making a bunk router table out of it for jointing wood. No doubt I'll run out of bench real-estate before then of course! Might be a consideration....