Modes Again!

[cb06]

my last post on modes did not get much feedback at all so thought i would try again!! i know all of the shapes in C major, but i still don't know when to play them. i was on this website which gave you backing tracks in certain keys and modes, so i tried to play over it like it said but it did't sound right at all. so if there is any advise, help, or links that people can send me i would appreciate it.

thanks, chris.

[custom22]

Basically, you take a major scale, and when you start and end on a different note than the root, you have a mode. This different note you started and ended on is the key of what you are playing.

For example, you could start on the third note of an A major, which is C#, and have a song in C# that has a dark tone. It takes a little bit of thinking

Here are two important things

http://www.theorylessons.com/modes.html -Scroll to the bottom, and there is a chart where the fancy names correspond to the Do Re Me's.

http://www.theorylessons.com/flats.html - Here, towards the bottom is a chart which tells you what sort of feels you will get with each one.

So now, when you decide you want a certain feel, like a dark metal one, you see what key the song is in, and find that note. You then decide which mode you will use based on these charts, and find which major scale has that note in the right position.

Suppose I have a song in "A flat" that I want a dark metal sound. I look it up, and locrian is the best mode for that. Locrian is the "ti" note, or the seventh. "A flat" is the "ti" note in the A major scale. So now, you use the A major scale, starting on "A flat"

Also, for it to be effective, you have to land on the roots fifths and other notes that make up the chord progression you are playing over. Otherwise, it will not work.

[cb06]

thanks very much for the advice n the links, its took a while for someone to actually respond to the subject of modes. i know all of the shapes on C major, like locrian, but i just dont know when to play them. so i appreciate the links very much.

cheers....chris

[wylde1919]

my last post on modes did not get much feedback at all so thought i would try again!! i know all of the shapes in C major, but i still don't know when to play them. i was on this website which gave you backing tracks in certain keys and modes, so i tried to play over it like it said but it did't sound right at all. so if there is any advise, help, or links that people can send me i would appreciate it.

thanks, chris.

Ummm, I don't think I agree with what you are saying (or at least how you are saying it)

If you play an A flat Locrian (Ab Bbb Cb Db Ebb Fb Gb) over a tune that is in A flat (Ab Bb C Db Eb F G) You are going to get some really disonant sounding stuff.

[mikhailgtrski]

Ummm, I don't think I agree with what you are saying (or at least how you are saying it)

If you play an A flat Locrian (Ab Bbb Cb Db Ebb Fb Gb) over a tune that is in A flat (Ab Bb C Db Eb F G) You are going to get some really disonant sounding stuff.

Or "dissident" according to that web page.

IIRC, Locrian sounds more like "jazz" than "dark metal". Phrygian perhaps.

Unless you're going for something really "out", the chords you're playing over will dictate which mode or scale fits. It doesn't really work to grab any mode at random and expect it to sound right, unless it's played over a chord progression that works with that mode. If you sit down and spell out each chord in a progression, you can begin to see which notes are common, then you can find the scale(s) or mode(s) that works over that progression.

Take a simple I - IV - vi - V progression in G:

G = G B D

C = C E G

Em = E G B

D = D F# A

The common notes are found in the G major scale: G A B C D E F#

If you play a G major major scale over that I - IV - vi - V progression, you're actually playing different modes over each chord:

G (I) = G ionian

C (IV) = C lydian

Em (vi) = E aeolian

D (V) = D mixolydian

It might be difficult to pick this modal thing up if you've only learned modes as shapes. You really need to know what notes you're playing in order to choose a mode that works.

Sorry if that's a bit basic, and maybe you've already figured it out, but it's a starting point.

Mike

[cb06]

k so a should more or less learn the notes on the frett board. thts wat happens when u learn guitar with tab!!

thanks

[mikhailgtrski]

It helps, especially when you start getting into more theory-intensive stuff (like modes ).

I pretty much learned scales as shapes, aka "the blues box" method, and I still play primarily "by shape" and "by ear". But I can also figure out what notes are in the shapes too. But not always on the fly.

[wylde1919]

It helps, especially when you start getting into more theory-intensive stuff (like modes ).

I pretty much learned scales as shapes, aka "the blues box" method, and I still play primarily "by shape" and "by ear". But I can also figure out what notes are in the shapes too. But not always on the fly.

I thought I was the only one in that little limbo!

[ToneMonkey]

Sorry if that's a bit basic, and maybe you've already figured it out, but it's a starting point.

Mike

Well it's helping me out. Rather than just banging out chords, I've been teaching myself theory. Stuff like this helps (although I haven't really got that far yet). I've been learning the shapes up and down the fretboard and starting on different strings, which is actually going fairly well.

Feel free to get as basic as you like guys

[custom22]

my last post on modes did not get much feedback at all so thought i would try again!! i know all of the shapes in C major, but i still don't know when to play them. i was on this website which gave you backing tracks in certain keys and modes, so i tried to play over it like it said but it did't sound right at all. so if there is any advise, help, or links that people can send me i would appreciate it.

thanks, chris.

Ummm, I don't think I agree with what you are saying (or at least how you are saying it)

If you play an A flat Locrian (Ab Bbb Cb Db Ebb Fb Gb) over a tune that is in A flat (Ab Bb C Db Eb F G) You are going to get some really disonant sounding stuff.

Well yes, I should have mentioned this. The chord progression will usually dictate which mode you use.

I was just pulling some examples out of my butt for illustration's purpose. I did not see if it would work out.

[cb06]

do u have to change mode every time the chord changes???

[custom22]

do u have to change mode every time the chord changes???

I dont. I am still stumbling through this myself, but when you play a major scale over something you dont change scales for each chord do you? You can, such as in the Joe Satriani's solo in Satch Boogie, but that is optional(not the best word but you know what i mean).

[wylde1919]

do u have to change mode every time the chord changes???

I wouldn't think of it that way. Basically I would think of it in simpler terms. Lets look at the two most common modes. Ionian and Aeolian, otherwise known as major and minor respectively. If you are playing in C Ionaian (Major), generally speaking your songs is going to center around the C major chord, and you play no sharps or flats. with the exception of accidentals, passing tones, etc. Think in terms of a I IV V progrssion. You always end the form with C major.

Now, Using the same number of flats and sharps (0), We will change our "chord center" to A minor. Hear you end up with i iv and V7. You will notice that the V7 chord contains the notes E G# B D#. This is OK because the western ear prefers to hear a dominant seven chord resolve to the one chord whether it be minor or major. It is a case of creating what we perceive as a somewhat dissonant chord and releiving that dissonance. It is now different than artist using ocntrasting colors or when a writer creates conflict in a story arc and then resolves it. Bear in mind for those of you who are more advanced in theory, this is cliffs not version of modal theaory works. I will post a follow up later but this is a good jumping off point. I invite those of you here with the knowledge to expoind upon this or to clear anything that I may have vague. Hope this helps.

[mikhailgtrski]

do u have to change mode every time the chord changes???

Simple answer - it depends.

In the example I posted, you are changing modes with each chord, but it's the same G major (Ionian) scale throughout.

If you are just soloing over a single static chord, I suppose you could pick whatever modal "flavor" you want. But most songs have more than one chord so the chord progression dictates what scale/mode "works".

[Gorecki]

A couple additional points to keep in prospective.

Every 'scale' has modes, what's been discussed here is only the 'Diatonic scale' the simplest of next to the pentatonic.

Within the scope of Diatonic some modes work well over other keys. The most commonly abused is Lydian over Ionian.

Always keep in mind if your playing C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Myxolydian, A Aolian, B Locrian ....IT'S ALL THE SAME NOTES.

So what if you want to play Lydian over Ionian? Example C, C Lydian is actually nothing more than the key of F..that's it, nothing fancy.

Beyond this in time, you'll want to focus on the chord, not a mode. Especially in vamps using embellishment the rules will change for each movement, example progression where Amaj7 goes to Amin7 goes to Amin7b5 goes to A7b9b13, you'll find modes just making things too complicated to 'think about' while playing. Focus on the chord and what it contains.

[El Dangerouso]

I have to give it up for Goreki's post here. Insightful. However, when I first started soloing and looking at theory, playing primarily rock, I felt like the chords went by too fast for me to keep up thinking about changing mode/scale. There was an intermediary step my guitar teach took with me that, I feel, really helped me, and I think it gets to the heart of Goreki's post.

He called it chord analysis. Let's look a a pretty common chord progression, Amaj Dmaj Emaj. He took each chord, had me finger it and name the notes. For the A, okay, I mute the low E, no note there; open A; second fret on the D, that's an E; second fret on the G, that's an A; second fret on the B, that's C#; open high E. Okay, we have A, E, A, C#, E. Three notes A, C#, E. He then said you can play any scale over that chord that has A, C# and E in the scale, and you're pretty certain not to sound "wrong".

But, he said, we can chord analyze the whole progression. To save time and space, with the Dmaj you come up with D, F# and A as the notes, and with Emaj you come up with E, G# and B. So if you play a scale with A, B, C#, D, E, F# and G#, you can play that scale over the whole progression. A Ionian (Major) fits the bill. So does maj pentatonic. It has A, B, C#, E, F#. No notes that conflict with the notes in the chords. You're good.

By the way, there are other modes that have ALL the same notes. So, while I guess you could say, I'm playing A Ionian over the A, D Lydian over the D, and E Mixolydian over the E, I think that's too complicated.

I prefer to think of it the way above, all as A Ionian. It's all the same notes, and I say the ENTIRE PROGRESSION is out of A Ionian. Just because I play two or three notes at a time (chords) doesn't mean I'm not playing out of a scale.

By the way, strip this down to A5 D5 or E5 and it give you A, E, D, B. Only four notes to match. A Ionian, A Dorian, A Maj Pentatonic, A Min Pentatonic, A Lydian, A Mixolydian, A Aeloian, etc.