Desopolis Posted October 5, 2006 Report Share Posted October 5, 2006 (edited) Recently I had made a maple neck to thin and decided to cut bait and start over instead of wishing the whole time it was thicker. hard to do becuase I was into it both time and money but I think the end result will be much better. So I went back to my local hardwood store and was just going to grab another flamed maple piece. But while there I was just in awe of the color of some Paduk boards they had so for $10 I grabed a 1" x 6" x 3' piece and took it home. I had allready purchased a Mahogony neck for another project and then I started to worry a bit. Both of these boards are plain sawn and Ive read a bit about it having a possibilty of warping under tension. I've also read that the truss rod should be able to cope. Im wondering if I should maybe cut a lamitate from the mahogony neck, and put it in the middle of the Paduk, while reversing the grain in the different pieces.. I then could do the same with the mahogony, witch in the end would look pretty nice. wondering what everyones opinions here were. Edited October 5, 2006 by Desopolis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted October 5, 2006 Report Share Posted October 5, 2006 Fender has been making flat sawn (I assume thats what you mean by plain sawn?) for years. If you are really worried, you could always put some carbon rods to reinforce the neck. Personally, the idea of having a 1-piece padauk neck just sounds awesome. However, I'm also a fan of laminated necks. So, unless someone else knows any reason why you couldn't use a 1-piece flatsawn padauk neck (with or without carbon reinforcement), I say go with whatever look you like best. If you decide to laminate, definately get some maple veneer to put between the padauk and mahogany laminates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desopolis Posted October 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2006 yeah im sorry, flat sawn and plain sawn are used the same on a few places.. Im not really worried if its not that big of an issue.. and yeah If its possible Id still like to keep it one piece, but the idea of a lam is growing on me.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihocky2 Posted October 5, 2006 Report Share Posted October 5, 2006 You have to look at how hard the wood is first. Mahoganny is fairly soft for a flat sawn neck, that's why Gibson uses quarter sawn. Even maple can be too soft for flat sawn. Fender uses hard maple or rock maple for their necks which are flat sawn. So you have to be sure of the wood you are using. I am trying to make a neck out of northern ash to see how it gets. I saw that it is just as hard as hard maple, so I am confident in using it flat sawn. But check out how the wood compares to hard maple, if it is too soft, then it could very possibly warp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted October 5, 2006 Report Share Posted October 5, 2006 Flat VS Quartered is going to make little difference in terms of strength. Two pieces well quartered or nicely flat sawn will be pretty similar. If the wood has interlocked grain like Mahogany the difference is even less(Although it is traditional to look for straight grained well quartersawn woods if possible). How straight the grain is would be something to look at as you could have some nasty runout on the back of the neck. Anyhow straight grain well quartered or well flat sawn should be equally good. As far as warping, cupping, twisting. Paduak has a pretty good radial to tangential shrinkage ratio and Genuine Mahogany has one of the best ratios available. So either of them should do well if they are not too far off flat or quarter. As far as reinforcement. I think it is good insurance with any neck (why not use it?). Paduak and Mahogany both have adequit strength. P.S. Is that Mahogany plain/flat sawn or rift? Paduak looks flat sawn, but the Mahogany doesn't. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desopolis Posted October 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2006 P.S. Is that Mahogany plain/flat sawn or rift? Paduak looks flat sawn, but the Mahogany doesn't. No Idea, most of the stuff there is flat sawn, they do have specificly quarter sawn Mahogony, but it was in the rough. besides asking them(witch its to late today) how can I tell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyManAndy Posted October 5, 2006 Report Share Posted October 5, 2006 (edited) I think you'll be fine. Padouk is a very tough and stable wood (not to mention tough on tools). CMA (P.S. That is a nice looking piece too. I'd like to see how it turns out.) Edited October 5, 2006 by CrazyManAndy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitefly SA Posted October 5, 2006 Report Share Posted October 5, 2006 No Idea, most of the stuff there is flat sawn, they do have specificly quarter sawn Mahogony, but it was in the rough. besides asking them(witch its to late today) how can I tell? Look on the end of the board, if the grain is going toward the the 6 inch side it is quarter sawn, if it is paralell to the it is is flat sawn and if it is sort of diagonal it is rift sawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 No Idea, most of the stuff there is flat sawn, they do have specificly quarter sawn Mahogony, but it was in the rough. besides asking them(witch its to late today) how can I tell? Look on the end of the board, if the grain is going toward the the 6 inch side it is quarter sawn, if it is paralell to the it is is flat sawn and if it is sort of diagonal it is rift sawn. Yup thats about it. Perpendicular to the top surface is Quarter, Parallel is Flat/Plain, I can't recall the exact angle (25-30 degrees?) off either perp. or par. and you have rift. You should look at how the grain runs through the length also. You want as close to straight grain as possible (acoustic top sets for instance try to avoid more than 1/2" of deflection over the length). Straighter grain along the length is good for the speed of sound traveling through he piece (sound travels much slower cross grain-about 1/5th as fast). So straighter is more desirable (of course that is not to say it has to be flawless) and you should look for the best you can(makes carving much easier too ). Keep in mind the issue with rift is that it puts the wood in the the worst position for deformation(warping) due to humidity. A well dried piece of wood though may be perfectly fine through the life of the instrument(so don't chuck the rift sawn wood, just be aware and try to avoid it when buying). Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desopolis Posted October 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 arrg... oh noes.. I cant tell if thats the saw or grain, as the lines are raised.. ill sand it and look again later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 arrg... oh noes.. http://www.desopolis.com/guitar/sawn1.jpg http://www.desopolis.com/guitar/sawn3.jpg http://www.desopolis.com/guitar/sawn2.jpg I cant tell if thats the saw or grain, as the lines are raised.. ill sand it and look again later. Oh man.... Don't get too worried. Like I said this is not as much of an issue for well dried wood. After wood has reached a stable point and has released it's extra moisture. The shrinkage is extreamly small compaired to the initial period of equalization (I believe I read once it's ability to take on moisture is something like 20% of it's prior potential). Also when you apply a good finish the rate of moisture exchange due to humidity changes is slowed even further. Take it one step further and look up the radial to tangetial shrinkage ratios for the woods(if they are closer to equal the wood is even less likely to distort significantly-*this will show you why Genuine Mahogany is such a desirable wood). So what you need to take from this is to be sure you allow it to dry very well(which should be the case anyway). After it is stable confirm it is straight. Here is a link to some info on this-Click. Take all this info with you next time you shop for wood. It is harder to find really nice cuts of wood, but they are out there(just takes a little more looking). Southpa- That is a great diagram. It doesn't really show the potential for a good cut of flatsawn from a large diameter tree(note;good flat requires pretty huge tree if you are looking for much width). However it shows you why you want to aviod scrab cut and how small diameter trees are going to have very little potential for nice cuts. This really shows why old growth (huge) trees produced such great cuts of wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 (edited) Its more evident with thin cuts. Like bookmatched acoustic guitar soundboards MUST be quartersawn. For necks, flatsawn works (as long as the piece has well centered symmetrical grain), but quartersawn is desirable. Both will expand and contract with temp/humidity conditions but they will expand and contract relatively EVENLY with the plane of their respective surfaces. A rift sawn (diagonal grain) neck will twist when it expands and contracts. Don't want that. I see why they call it "bastardsawn", got properties of both the other cuts. http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/story.jht...amp;catref=wd22 Edited October 6, 2006 by Southpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Southpa- I looked at that article. I didn't understand where they were coming from when they said this- "You may find riftsawn boards hard to come by, even though they prove to be as strong and as stable as quartersawn boards. That's because sawyers have to spend more time and create more waste, when cutting riftsawn stock.". I think we are on the same page, but I don't understand why they would say riftsawn boards prove to be as strong and stable as quartersawn. They seem to contradict what you and I are saying. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desopolis Posted October 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Im planning on cutting the boards and alternating the grain.. we'll see.. thanks a bunch for the info! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 (edited) I think we are on the same page, but I don't understand why they would say riftsawn boards prove to be as strong and stable as quartersawn. They seem to contradict what you and I are saying We consider "stability" in totally different terms than what they are talking about. They are talking about building floors and furniture, the wood is basically inanimate, no continuous external forces and stresses applied. On the other hand, for OUR uses, a rift sawn grain is undesirable because it will not accept the forces exerted by guitar strings and truss rod evenly. A piece of wood with uneven grain will not bend as straight as a piece with uniform grain. Edited October 6, 2006 by Southpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted October 6, 2006 Report Share Posted October 6, 2006 Rift-sawn wood is the least stable, least predictable, weakest cut for almost any species you can think of. Avoid wherever workable, or only use in places it's appropriate. I know some folks use rift-sawn stock for biridgplates on acoustic guitars precisely because it is relatively flexible, and is less crack-prone than either flatsawn or quartersawn stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desopolis Posted October 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 I laminated the pieces: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 I laminated the pieces: Wow! Nice. You're making two necks at once? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desopolis Posted October 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 yeah, for two of the same body style, different materials though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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