Vade Posted December 1, 2006 Report Share Posted December 1, 2006 (edited) Well, I've been several stages into this project for awhile but only recently have begun taking the photo documentation and resizing it for the interweb. After that there's been a lot of typing. (( carpel tunnel setting in )) Any-the-who. . . Since when I first brainstormed this thing I couldn't find any detailed DIY's on the web for a similar project, I decided I would blog the whole process so that other potential modders have something that will come up on a Google search to reference. "COOL! Thanks to this guy, I know what mistakes to avoid!" Already Project Guitar has been a wealth of valuable knowledge for me so I wanted to make sure that I shared a link to my "guitar modding with vade" blog with all of you guys! Here ya go: http://vadeking.blogspot.com/ it also exists on livejournal http://vadeking.livejournal.com/ but I like the look and feel of the blogspot version better. However, for anyone who are users of LJ and prefer that layout. . . there ya go. I was considering whether or not to post pics and simplified progress stats here as well, but I'm proving to be quite image-intensive and I know there are a lot of rules & limitations on number and size of images posted here. I might sit down, confirm all the forum specifics & figure out how best to post while conforming to all of them eventually, but for now you can see where I'm at and the mess I'm making at those links above. Not that there is much to comment on at this point, but to anyone who has any questions, thoughts, corrections or ideas, I'd be thrilled if you shared them either in this thread or as comments on the Blogsites! Wish me luck... "This guitar is SO in for it." ~~Vade Edited December 1, 2006 by Vade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodBlessTexas Posted December 1, 2006 Report Share Posted December 1, 2006 Howdy. I part out lots of Ibanez guitars, so I can concur that you definitely need the ziploc bags when you take them apart. However, given your list of modifications, I have two questions. 1) Why did you release the tension on the truss rod? I'd have left it as it was, especially if you plan on putting it back together. If you wanted to release tension on the strings, $1.50 at Guitar Center will get you a string winder and you can release all the tension in less than 30 seconds. I have one for my drill which works even faster than that. 2) Why did you remove the locking nut from the neck? Completely disassembling the guitar seems a bit of overkill and a great way to lose parts, especially if what you plan on doing with the guitar doesn't require it. Either way, I'm looking forward to seeing how your project turns out. If you need any small bits in case you lost something, let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vade Posted December 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 Hey GBT! Well, to answer your 2nd question first: This is a complete headstock-to-strapbutton mod. The only thing that won't really change much is the fretboard & fretmarkers (save for the scalloping on the high 5 frets) and so since all finish is being removed and redone (including headstock painting, staining the neck and possibly some carving or other re-shaping) everything attached to wood had to go! As for question 1: WHY DID I LOOSEN THE TRUSS ROD? It wasn't to loosen the strings before removal... I have a half a dozen string winders laying about in guitar cases, bookshelves, the floor, etc... it was so that when I undid the strings, the back tension on the neck caused by the trussrod wouldn't have a detrimental effect on the neck itself while sitting for godknowshowlong without the reverse tension created by the strings. I haven't the foggiest clue if this was A) a clever and logical move on my part, possibly harmful, or C) completely pointless. When I got the RG, it required a considerable amount of truss-tweaking to get the action right but I felt that the additional tension might be a little much for a neck without the forward pull of the strings. Just a guess! Good to have a line on Ibby parts if I need them, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vade Posted December 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 Just a thought... I appreciate that I've had like 100 views in 2 and a half days and I'm sure that a good number of those have been people who wound up saying to themselves "oh... it's a link to another site. I'm not gonna go there." But of those of you who have checked it out, do any of the rest of you have any thoughts so far? Feedback is a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Your comments regarding Cosmo Black VS Black Ibanez hardware are wrong. Cosmo is a translucent plating type of finish. It is not a solid black colour and it is more desirable than the regular solid black finish in some circles. It is by no means a "cheaper" finish. My '87 Ibanez Jem has all cosmo black hardware and it has held up fairly well, although it is worn. Its a little like the gold finish in terms of durability. Durability has a lot to do with your PH level and how often you play live under hot lights. You blog is OK but I find it a little to verbose. Have fun with your project! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 guitar2005 is right...cosmo is preffered.but a while back there were guys getting into powdercoating...that will color it any color you want Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vade Posted December 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Your comments regarding Cosmo Black VS Black Ibanez hardware are wrong. Cosmo is a translucent plating type of finish. It is not a solid black colour and it is more desirable than the regular solid black finish in some circles. It is by no means a "cheaper" finish... My '87 Ibanez Jem has all cosmo black hardware and it has held up fairly well, although it is worn. Its a little like the gold finish in terms of durability... THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN' ABOUT! Thanks, both you guys for correcting me! I was hoping to get criticism on stuff I mess up, whether it's the project itself or the stuff that I write about it. (( and "guilty as charged" on the heavy-handed writing... When I start, it's hard to stop and I tend to go off on tangents. I realize though that seeing such a ridiculously long Blog can be kind of intimidating when it comes to someone's internet surfing time... I'll try to keep that in mind and truncate future posts. )) I appreciate the info on Cosmo Black Finishes... I'm off to remove the offending statements right now! ~~Vade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Another little tidbit of info. The black ibanez bridges do wears off (in terms of colour) but they don't wear as bad as the original Floyds. What I get with the solid black ones is slight wearing off on the edges where the plam of my hand sits. Your Ibanez looks like it has the LO-TRS. You may want to consider upgrading with an Ibanez Edge trem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodBlessTexas Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 Ah, the wonderful world of Cosmo Black. Visually, it's a beautiful finish, but it's not even remotely resilient. I wipe down my guitars after playing, and I still have wear on the Cosmo parts. Of all the guitars I've parted out, nearly all of them have had finish wear on the Cosmo parts. I'm not exactly sure what the specifics are of the Cosmo Black finish process, but whatever it is, it is just a coating they put over a hard chromed finish. I'm not exactly sure why they don't use a much more wear/sweat resistant Titanium Carbide Nitride finish (TiCN). When polished, it looks very similar to Cosmo Black but it wears a lot better and is virtually the same price when doing large runs. I only wish I could find a place that would do small runs of TiCN. Your Ibanez looks like it has the LO-TRS. You may want to consider upgrading with an Ibanez Edge trem. Lo-TRS (made in Japan, hardened) is fine. Lo-TRS II (made in Korea, not the same quality) is worth replacing. The Lo-TRS and Lo-TRS II are interchangable without making any changes to the body since they share the exact same dimensions. You can also replace either of them with a real Floyd Rose II, which also shares the same dimensions and drops right in. Putting in an Edge, Lo Pro Edge, or Edge Pro will require body modification and refinishing, but they are great trems. Basically, the rule of thumb with Ibanez Trems is that anything with a II after it is worse than a trem without it. So, and Edge Pro (current double locking trem on Prestige and MIJ guitars) is better than an Edge Pro II or III (current on Korean and Indonesian guitars), though the Edge Pro III is definitely better than the Pro II. Confused yet? If I were ranking the Ibanez free floating trems in terms of quality, it would go: Edge Pro Edge/Lo Pro Edge Edge Pro III Edge Pro II Lo-TRS Lo-TRS II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 you forgot the zr trem...imo the best trem ibanez ever designed...from an engineering standpoint. i have only minimally had experience with th zr(about 5 minutes in guitar center...i plan on further testing because i wish to put one on my explorer project)but it felt very smooth and nice. now TECHNICALLY i know some don't consider it free floating because of the stop gismo they have in the back that adds the stability...but i am told you can remove that piece and make it a full free floater...in wnhich case it becommes a very fine piece of machinery... anyone with one of these trems let me know if i am wrong on any point about the zr...because i am planning on a purchase of one very soon,as i hate knife edge designs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vade Posted December 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 ....If I were ranking the Ibanez free floating trems in terms of quality, it would go: Edge Pro Edge/Lo Pro Edge Edge Pro III Edge Pro II Lo-TRS Lo-TRS II Zounds! That's a nice bit of information in that ranking and the info leading up to it! I will almost certainly be accessing this thread again when the project is more or less completed in terms of the initial physical rework. Budget restraints force me to maintain the original hardware for the time being. Beyond that, I want to make sure that the RG is in full playing condition after I've had my way with it before I go sinking three figures into a better trem. I have a good deal of confidence that I won't be making any glaring & irreversible errors with the recarve but one never knows, after all. I don't have a second guitar that would benefit from a higher-end FRT if this one winds up in no condition for the upgrade, so I first need to be 100% positive that if I sock out the bucks, it will be used. This is the one area where the mod will have multiple stages of "completion." Major hardware improvement will be an upgrade after the initial project is successfully finished, but it's really good to have this kind of clear info so I know what to look for on the 'Bay! Thanks GBT. And, of course Westhemann, I hope there's some feedback on your ZR inquiry as I myself am now curious about that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodBlessTexas Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 you forgot the zr trem...imo the best trem ibanez ever designed...from an engineering standpoint. Actually, I didn't. I left it out intentionally. It's my favorte trem by far, but after toying with the idea, I don't think it's worth retrofitting to an existing guitar. The routing required for the double tension mechanism in the back requires special routing to mount, as well as a larger trem cavity. I believe that the trem post spacing is the same as the Edge models. i have only minimally had experience with th zr(about 5 minutes in guitar center...i plan on further testing because i wish to put one on my explorer project)but it felt very smooth and nice. now TECHNICALLY i know some don't consider it free floating because of the stop gismo they have in the back that adds the stability...but i am told you can remove that piece and make it a full free floater...in wnhich case it becommes a very fine piece of machinery... I'm one of those people, though you are correct in that you can remove the two spring responsible for bringing it back to zero while leaving the other two springs that counteract the string tensions in place. However, I found it much harder to get setup than a normal knive-edged trem and they move entirely too easy in this configuration because of the ball bearings. anyone with one of these trems let me know if i am wrong on any point about the zr...because i am planning on a purchase of one very soon,as i hate knife edge designs Nope, they rule. Do you have a source for the one for your project? If not, I come across them from time to time, and I don't ask nearly as much as what Rich at Ibanezrules asks for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 you forgot the zr trem...imo the best trem ibanez ever designed...from an engineering standpoint. Actually, I didn't. I left it out intentionally. It's my favorte trem by far, but after toying with the idea, I don't think it's worth retrofitting to an existing guitar. The routing required for the double tension mechanism in the back requires special routing to mount, as well as a larger trem cavity. I believe that the trem post spacing is the same as the Edge models. i have only minimally had experience with th zr(about 5 minutes in guitar center...i plan on further testing because i wish to put one on my explorer project)but it felt very smooth and nice. now TECHNICALLY i know some don't consider it free floating because of the stop gismo they have in the back that adds the stability...but i am told you can remove that piece and make it a full free floater...in wnhich case it becommes a very fine piece of machinery... I'm one of those people, though you are correct in that you can remove the two spring responsible for bringing it back to zero while leaving the other two springs that counteract the string tensions in place. However, I found it much harder to get setup than a normal knive-edged trem and they move entirely too easy in this configuration because of the ball bearings. anyone with one of these trems let me know if i am wrong on any point about the zr...because i am planning on a purchase of one very soon,as i hate knife edge designs Nope, they rule. Do you have a source for the one for your project? If not, I come across them from time to time, and I don't ask nearly as much as what Rich at Ibanezrules asks for them. i totally agree about the difficulty of retrofitting...i just feel that it needed to be in the list because it is soooo cool...hehe i guess when i install it i will test it and see if it is useful as a free floater and if it goes back to zero accurately..i guess i also need to see if my heavy handed palm muting is going to vary the pitch. i have no problem leaving the stabilizer springs on it though..if i need too. somebody told me it was difficult to flutter with those stabilizers on though...which is why i consider experimenting. i am told that the rout is difficult to make and that it has to be very accurate...i am going to look into it carefully before i purchase...but yes i do have a source that i have a bit of a relationship with...in that i have bought from him before and he is very quick and fairly well priced...but thank you. i would really prefer a kahler flatmount to be honest...because of the ease of the routing and the lack of any routing in the back of the guitar at all...but thoe things are so damn hard to get...every time i think i have a line on one it doesn't pan out...a few yrears ago i even emailed kahler directly and after nearly a week they finally responded just to say they were out and weren't planning to make any more until a large # of orders came in... i find that to be a very bad way to do business and that is probably why floyd is raking in the cash with a much worse design. anyone know where to purchase a kahler pro 2300 new? hell..their website is even difficult to navigate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 http://www.wammiusa.com/7300%20upgrade%20alt.html not to hijack...but i found this...i can buy this but i don't know if it is a comparable bridge anyone know?it's a long shot anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_the_damned Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 As far as I can remember the 7300 trems are considered a lot better than the 2300. They look basicly identical to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 my laptop battery got low so i was only able to read that site now. what it looks like to me is that the 7300 pro is a replacement for the 2300 pro...same trem,but with an added locking screw to lock it if you need to use it fixed bridge style.. sooo i guess the point is that now they finally ARE available...i hope. i will call them and find out...if they are i will put a new topic about it in players corner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vade Posted December 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 http://www.wammiusa.com/7300%20upgrade%20alt.html not to hijack...but i found this...i can buy this but i don't know if it is a comparable bridge anyone know?it's a long shot anyway "Hijack?" Dude, are you kidding? This info is awesome! Plus all this talk about trems (all of which I am now going to be looking into for the final version of the project) keeps *bumping my thread! Nope; no complaints here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 6, 2006 Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 i found out the rout for a kahler is very small and easy..and the trems come with a routing template. the rout is only 1 " deep...you know whatthat means" possible trem equipped super thin guitar.... you could make a guitar body 1" thick with a backplate or 1 1/4" thick with an unbroken back. or just any regular guitar..but you have to remove way less woodthan with a floyd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodBlessTexas Posted December 6, 2006 Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 i totally agree about the difficulty of retrofitting...i just feel that it needed to be in the list because it is soooo cool...hehe Fair enough. It is a very, very cool trem. Personally, I've always hated free floaters until I got my first ZR equipped guitar. It helped me take the plunge to actually taking an interest in them after I got comfortable with the ZR. So, now only my drop C Ibanez guitars are blocked. i guess when i install it i will test it and see if it is useful as a free floater and if it goes back to zero accurately..i guess i also need to see if my heavy handed palm muting is going to vary the pitch. That's exactly the problem. Any pressure on the bridge causes it to move because of the ball bearings. It's butter smooth, but I think the the design doesn't work well without the return bar/tension. i have no problem leaving the stabilizer springs on it though..if i need too. somebody told me it was difficult to flutter with those stabilizers on though...which is why i consider experimenting. It's virtually impossible due to the nature of the design with all the springs engaged. With them taken off, it's very, very easy, at the cost of stability. Then again, I may not be subtle enough with my picking hand. i am told that the rout is difficult to make and that it has to be very accurate...i am going to look into it carefully before i purchase...but yes i do have a source that i have a bit of a relationship with...in that i have bought from him before and he is very quick and fairly well priced...but thank you. No worries. The route is not exactly difficult, just involved. On the back side, it's longer and narrower, but has a step towards the heel of the neck as the spring assembly has a lip that screws into the step that holds the tension adjustment allen bolt (v1) or thumb knob (v2) close to the cover plate for easy adjustment without taking the cover off. BTW, if you get one, you'll probable want a V2 with the thumb wheel instead of the allen bolt. I hear they have a habit of breaking, though neither of mine have *knock on wood*. "Hijack?" Dude, are you kidding? This info is awesome! Plus all this talk about trems (all of which I am now going to be looking into for the final version of the project) keeps *bumping my thread! Nope; no complaints here! I'm glad you're finding the information so useful. It's good that all this crap in my head can be useful to someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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