How Can You Tell What Sort Of Mahogany You've Got?

[fyb]

I was in my (semi)local Woodcraft store today to pick up some wood for a mahogany neck and they only have one 'type' of indescript mahogany. How can you tell if it's honduran, african, etc?

The chunk I bought for my neck (2" x 4"+ x 36") is light (maybe 2-2.5 lbs), rather light brownish (as opposed to reddish), and has some cool ribbon striping.

My camera just ran out of batteries or i'd show you a pic What are the general ways you can tell mahoganies apart?

[westhemann]

it's probably "genuine" mahogany or possibly luan...those are pretty light in color as opposed to the others...does it look like this?the wood in the middle section i mean?because that is "genuine" mahogany...it is less dense and not as desired as honduran and others...but it is still fine wood.most places here just call that "mahogany" and nothing else

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o199/we...pg?t=1165103955

[fyb]

it's probably "genuine" mahogany or possibly luan...those are pretty light in color as opposed to the others...does it look like this?the wood in the middle section i mean?because that is "genuine" mahogany...it is less dense and not as desired as honduran and others...but it is still fine wood.most places here just call that "mahogany" and nothing else

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o199/we...pg?t=1165103955

Not quite like that ... I don't think a place with a decent reputation like Woodcraft would sell lauan as mahogany for $8/bd ft.

I hope

I see lauan every day at work, and I don't think it could be that, but again I'm no expert

[westhemann]

notice i said mine is not luan...it is "genuine" mahogany...if you saw the back of the guitar you would see as it is entirely just plain old mahogany...it has the streaks you are talking about and everything.

they would call luan either luan or phillipine mahogany...but "genuine" mahogany they just call "mahogany.

without a finish it is light brown...but slightly darker and heavier than luan..the wood in the center of my guitar you see there has a finish on it si it appears a bit darker...plus those lieces are quartersawn,and yours are probably flatsawn...like the back of my guitar

give me a sec..i am uploading a pic

http://westhemann.com/my%20music/pics/esp%...tures%20076.jpg

so?

[Southpa]

Genuine ie. Honduras mahogany has some notable features like tiny darker colored crosshatchings (tangential) within the grain, also may have some very fine white mineral inclusions running with the grain. The crosshatchings really add some depth to the figure when a clearcoat is laid on top. The crosshatchings can also be found in African mahogany. You can compare with the mahoganys listed here.

[westhemann]

i think that site is misleading...or else i am confused

if you look at the "honduras" mahogany you will see they say it is also called "american" mahogany...and the picture is of the same wood on the back of my guitar...which was described to me by the hardwood guy as american i.e. "genuine" mahogany.

i went to a cabinet shop later on and bought some "honduran" mahogany...which is MUCHredder and more tightly grained than that picture they have.i bought quite alot of it and it is a fine,fine wood.i used it in many necks...but it is mucho different than what they show there

sooo...either i have some bad info...or that site is mistaken.and i would like to have that cleared up...and i would like to know what the incredibly red,incredibly tight grained mahogany i got from that cabinet shop is.

the woodi am talking about is in the two outside laminates of the neck in the picture i linked to...but it is not very clear

[Southpa]

Agreed on that point Wes. For that matter most any pictures online won't do your wood justice, its rare to find an exact match, especially when talking about mahogany. There are also the misnomers ie. common names used for some woods that some people use. Worst case scenario, one guitar shop owner was agreeing with his customer that basswood was indeed, the same wood as swamp ash. LOL!

I've noticed that a lot of the folks at MIMF actually describe their wood by the scientific genus/species names to avoid confusion. American mahogany is the only one from "the Americas", Honduras is in Central America but it also grows in other neighboring countries spanning into N. South America and S. North America (egad). So its all considered American mahogany but grows most prolificly in Honduras.

Here is a pic that I know is REAL Honduras mahogany. I got this wood from a boatbuilding shop. The wood was being used on a VERY EXPENSIVE yacht and I managed to finagle some leftovers from the head carpenter.

Both the body wings and central neckthru are Honduras mahogany and you can see how different they look. You can see the white mineral inclusions in the body wood which literally disappear upon finishing over. But the neck wood did not have any. Go figure.

Edited December 7, 2006 by Southpa

[guitar2005]

I was in my (semi)local Woodcraft store today to pick up some wood for a mahogany neck and they only have one 'type' of indescript mahogany. How can you tell if it's honduran, african, etc?

The chunk I bought for my neck (2" x 4"+ x 36") is light (maybe 2-2.5 lbs), rather light brownish (as opposed to reddish), and has some cool ribbon striping.

My camera just ran out of batteries or i'd show you a pic What are the general ways you can tell mahoganies apart?

Honduran Mahogany can have ribbon striping. In that case, it would be reffered to as "Pattern" grade. It is the most expensive Mahogany you can buy.

African Mahogany is a little heavier and is generally lighter in color

[westhemann]

the red stuff i have also had the white inclusions...maybe they are both the same wood...but the red stuff i have is heartwood?possible?

good god wood is difficult.do you know how many years i have spent poring over wood types?and i still aint got it figgerd out?

hell..you should see me trying to tell the diffence between hard and soft maple(if both are not figured i mean)

[fryovanni]

Man, I hate how much confusion is created by "common" names. When in doubt hit Wikipedia-

Mahogany-click

As a side note; Gilmer would refer to Swietenia macrophylla as "genuine Mahogany"(which is the same species as Honduran).

Also; Khaya or "african" Mahogany is lighter than Swietenia Macrophylla for what it is worth.

and a little tid bit about what links all these woods. They are all members of the Meliaceae family(mahogany family)

Meliaceae-click

Also a note about the ribbon stripped figure. That figure appears in Quarter sawn wood that has interlocked grain. It really isn't exactly figure in the curly, quilted, burled etc.. sense. It would be more like a hyped up version of the cross grain flecking you see in quarter sawn hard maple.

Peace,Rich

[wwwdotcomdotnet]

southpa, any more pics of that guitar?

[Southpa]

southpa, any more pics of that guitar?

Finished or in-progress pics? I built that one about 4 yrs ago, it was stolen once and I got it back 4 months later. If you have access to the download section you will find fully dimensioned ACAD drawings of this guitar. There are lots of cosmetic flaws but its those little things that just make it unique. I built the guitar for ME anyway. PM me with your email addy and I can send you a bunch of pics. Heres one from a while back. I've since replaced the stainless pickguard with a more curvy one. And there is now a Dimarzio Superdistortion in the bridge as well as on board distortion (Black Ice cap.) which I got to work REALLY well with an on/off toggle switch.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5712/mahoganyqk0.jpg

Edited December 7, 2006 by Southpa

[Mattia]

Really, unless you have a good enough nose to smell the differences, and or a microscope to look at grain strcture, it can be very hard to tell. I have honduran/american/genuine (S. Macrophylla) that's dark red, pale brown, some very light, some very heavy, some with mineral inclusions, some without. Some wih ribbon strpies, some flamed, some plain. The exact same goes for the Sapele, Sipo and Khaya African mahoganies. Generally, Khaya is a bit lighter than honduran, sapele a bit heavier, but I've got boards that are the opposite as well.

Really, particularly with mahoganies, colour, weight, appearance will get you precisely nowhere, fast.

[guitar2005]

Really, unless you have a good enough nose to smell the differences, and or a microscope to look at grain strcture, it can be very hard to tell. I have honduran/american/genuine (S. Macrophylla) that's dark red, pale brown, some very light, some very heavy, some with mineral inclusions, some without. Some wih ribbon strpies, some flamed, some plain. The exact same goes for the Sapele, Sipo and Khaya African mahoganies. Generally, Khaya is a bit lighter than honduran, sapele a bit heavier, but I've got boards that are the opposite as well.

Really, particularly with mahoganies, colour, weight, appearance will get you precisely nowhere, fast.

Agreed - I can barely (if at all) tell the difference between African and Honduran Mahogany. There are clues but I don't have enough experience to tell them apart. When You get into all the variables, it gets real complicated quick.

[Desopolis]

this is one set of mahogany I got for a neck:

http://www.desopolis.com/guitar/neckhelp2.jpg

this is the body blank before alot of shaping:

http://www.desopolis.com/guitar/dirtysanchez.jpg

it looks alot darker in person but has those streaks in it, plus it has alot of sparkle. Not alot of white though.. the first blank actually has some flame in it, but is a different cut then the body.

both are African.

[Setch]

I've been led to believe that the whitish mineral depositis in the pores are indicative of genuine mahogany (as distinct from khaya, sapele etc). No real idea if it's true or not. I tend to agree with Mattia, unless you see the tree being harvested it's *very* difficult to differentiate.

Which naturally leads to one conclusion; if they're so similar, whether you have one, or the other, hardly matters...

[westhemann]

i guess if it is mahogany and it is a niice straight grained piece...then it's good eh?

i have a cheap ass nato warlock i bought a while back...now,it is incredibly horribly crafted,and it plays very poorly...but the sound once good pickups were put in was exactly what i would expect from mahogany...if not a little creamier....

i think i will look into some nato and see what that wood costs per bf...

by the way...nato is also called eastern mahogany

[Setch]

Nato is used to describe any vaguely mahogany-ish wood used in cheap far eastern guitars. It's occasionally used to describe maple-ish woods used in necks too.

I'd be interested to see what you find if you go looking at wood dealers.

[fryovanni]

i guess if it is mahogany and it is a niice straight grained piece...then it's good eh?

i have a cheap ass nato warlock i bought a while back...now,it is incredibly horribly crafted,and it plays very poorly...but the sound once good pickups were put in was exactly what i would expect from mahogany...if not a little creamier....

i think i will look into some nato and see what that wood costs per bf...

by the way...nato is also called eastern mahogany

There is one very appealing thing that made Cuban Mahogany(Swietenia mahogoni) so popular, stability(radial to tangential shrinkage ratio is very slight). As Cuban was driven to the brink of extinction Honduran(Swietenia, macrophylla) was found to be a great substitute as it is pretty much as stable, only not as hard or dense. Now mind you these are more or less boat building and fine furnature makers demanding these woods for the most part. So keep in mind stability of these varietys woods are very impressive.

African Mahogany- Khaya, Sapele are similar in appearence. They are in the same family. Weight is kinda in the same ballpark. Khaya is generally lighter, is not as stiff, fair stability(R/T shrinkage)not as stable as Cuban or Honduran, but one notable difference is that the fibers can get stringy when working with it. Sapele is generally heavier, harder, stiffer, fair stability(similar to Khaya), however it is notable that it can be more brittle when working with it. These woods on their own merits are great woods.

Nato(Mora,Leguminosae fam.) is not even in the same family. It is a rapid growing, faily heavy, average to fair strength, less stable than most "Mahogany". I would assume a lot of this woods use is due to availability and lower cost. However... It has been used a lot and works fine. I would look at it for what it is and use it if it fits your needs. Forget about the comparison to Swietenia, macrophylla.

Peace,Rich

[westhemann]

yes it is used due to lower cost.but what i am saying is it sounds similar to mahogany...maybe kind of halfway between mahogany and alder.

it is a good sounding wood..just not a good looking wood.so on a solid finished guitar i think it may be useful.alder is inexpensive and plentiful,and less stable and lighter than most mahogany...but that makes it no less of a good instrument wood...it is one of my favorites

hehe...can you imagine me...the guy who hates cheap stuff...trying out nato and finding out i prefer it to real mahogany?i would have to laugh at myself.

but one of those scratch and dent guitars i just ordered is a maple neck through with nato wings..and if it sounds similar to that warlock,that might be exactly what i do

[fryovanni]

yes it is used due to lower cost.but what i am saying is it sounds similar to mahogany...maybe kind of halfway between mahogany and alder.

it is a good sounding wood..just not a good looking wood.so on a solid finished guitar i think it may be useful.alder is inexpensive and plentiful,and less stable and lighter than most mahogany...but that makes it no less of a good instrument wood...it is one of my favorites

hehe...can you imagine me...the guy who hates cheap stuff...trying out nato and finding out i prefer it to real mahogany?i would have to laugh at myself.

but one of those scratch and dent guitars i just ordered is a maple neck through with nato wings..and if it sounds similar to that warlock,that might be exactly what i do

I in no way was looking to put down any of the woods we are talking about. I believe it is hard sometimes when they assosciate everything with "mahogany" or "rosewood". So many of these woods are totally fine for use in instrument building. The variety of properties you can get from all these woods should be embraced. That way we can choose a wood that suits what we want to build, not just say it is called "Mahogany" it must be almost as good. Heck it may be better suited than Honduran Mahogany to get the sound you want.

When it comes to price. I think the same resistance to focus on price vs how it will work for you would be smart. Alder is a great wood to build with, and it just so happens to be reasonably priced(bonus!). I feel the same about Sapele for necks. Reasonable price, but it is an outstanding neck wood. Khaya is a great body wood IMO and is also very reasonable.

I have not found a lot of wood that does not have potential as long as it is well dried and a fairly nice cut of wood. It is more a question of is it right for what I want out of it.

Peace,Rich

[guitar2005]

yes it is used due to lower cost.but what i am saying is it sounds similar to mahogany...maybe kind of halfway between mahogany and alder.

it is a good sounding wood..just not a good looking wood.so on a solid finished guitar i think it may be useful.alder is inexpensive and plentiful,and less stable and lighter than most mahogany...but that makes it no less of a good instrument wood...it is one of my favorites

hehe...can you imagine me...the guy who hates cheap stuff...trying out nato and finding out i prefer it to real mahogany?i would have to laugh at myself.

but one of those scratch and dent guitars i just ordered is a maple neck through with nato wings..and if it sounds similar to that warlock,that might be exactly what i do

I in no way was looking to put down any of the woods we are talking about. I believe it is hard sometimes when they assosciate everything with "mahogany" or "rosewood". So many of these woods are totally fine for use in instrument building. The variety of properties you can get from all these woods should be embraced. That way we can choose a wood that suits what we want to build, not just say it is called "Mahogany" it must be almost as good. Heck it may be better suited than Honduran Mahogany to get the sound you want.

When it comes to price. I think the same resistance to focus on price vs how it will work for you would be smart. Alder is a great wood to build with, and it just so happens to be reasonably priced(bonus!). I feel the same about Sapele for necks. Reasonable price, but it is an outstanding neck wood. Khaya is a great body wood IMO and is also very reasonable.

I have not found a lot of wood that does not have potential as long as it is well dried and a fairly nice cut of wood. It is more a question of is it right for what I want out of it.

Peace,Rich

What's really important to get a good sounding guitar isn't good wood anyways. All you need is hype

a magic wand seems to work for some people. Oh... the word Vintage does wonders for your sound too.

Yeah... I wouldn't worry about the wood too much.

Edited December 8, 2006 by guitar2005

[fryovanni]

What's really important to get a good sounding guitar isn't good wood anyways. All you need is hype

a magic wand seems to work for some people. Oh... the word Vintage does wonders for your sound too.

Yeah... I wouldn't worry about the wood too much.

Now that is something woodworkers, and especially luthiers can rally around

Sorry..

I think I get what your saying, and I think all the hype and BS out there about tonewood is sad at times.

[Acousticraft]

Some of the Mahogany Ive used in my new axe is unknown.

This is due to the fact our school gets lots of off-cuts, rejects very cheaply from a timber importer.

There is all sorts of amazing looking timbers including purple heart, zebra wood, Oak and all manner of Mahoganies and other unknown nameless types.

Sapelle is fairly easy to identify once machined as it has those line of opposing grain lines and is sometimes a nightmare to machine as no matter which direction you thickness it some tear out occurs.

The problem with Mahoganies is in their aged rough sawn state they all are chocolate brown in colour but the neck wood I used was quite pink in colour but machined nicely. As long as it has a nice tight end grain I don't particularly care whether it is African, Honduran or from Iceland, especially when I can get it for free when I talk nicely to the wood shop teacher.

Edited December 8, 2006 by Acousticraft

[Desopolis]

I wanted to bump this as I just came from a wood shop today, and they had both African and Genuine Mahogany. The Genuine didn't look very special, and the African had very in depth streaks of color and shade. I may be going tomorrow to pick up what I need for a project. I'll ask where they get the genuine at, and what makes it different for them to call it "genuine" instead of a regional type.