Hot Glue On Glue Action!

[verhoevenc]

As per a little discussion started in the acoustic chat area on how some glues will not attach to surfaces where other glues have been... lets start up a nice definitive answer to it all.

Rich if you could re-link that article you posted up that'd be great too.

Also, I'm going to start with my question that wasn't addressed in said article:

What about sillicon adhesive on titebond original?

Chris

[fryovanni]

As per a little discussion started in the acoustic chat area on how some glues will not attach to surfaces where other glues have been... lets start up a nice definitive answer to it all.

Rich if you could re-link that article you posted up that'd be great too.

Also, I'm going to start with my question that wasn't addressed in said article:

What about sillicon adhesive on titebond original?

Chris

Chris,

Do you mean this?-click

That would be it, and now instead of having this discussion hidden away in an acoustic thread, where when searched for would often be over-looked, people can relate their glue information here in this wonderfully obvious place.

Chris

Are you implying that nobody looks at the acoustic topics .

Edited December 11, 2006 by fryovanni

[verhoevenc]

That would be it, and now instead of having this discussion hidden away in an acoustic thread, where when searched for would often be over-looked, people can relate their glue information here in this wonderfully obvious place.

Chris

PS: OF COURSE I"M IMPLYING THAT. No, jk, I'm implying those searching for info on glue on glue compatability wouldn't delve into a "broken-headstock" thread if it showed up on their search.

[Southpa]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. This board needs a review section for all the related products and tools used in the guitar building field. Its something that everyone can contribute to and the benefits would certainly be there. If you used tite-bond II and it sucked I'd like to be able to find that kind of info easily and know why it didn't work. Just input how and where it was used and why it failed or was successful. I know this kind of info is already in the forum....somewhere...

[rhoads56]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. This board needs a review section for all the related products and tools used in the guitar building field. Its something that everyone can contribute to and the benefits would certainly be there. If you used tite-bond II and it sucked I'd like to be able to find that kind of info easily and know why it didn't work. Just input how and where it was used and why it failed or was successful. I know this kind of info is already in the forum....somewhere...

the problem with this idea, is that the majority of people submitting the posts would have no, or very little, real world experience over long periods of time, using that, or simular products. Kinda like the food dyes for wood stains, we have seen in the past. Its repeated work, compared to the usability of other simular products, in a controlled (well, somewhat) enviroment that will produce results and reports worth saving. The majority of the membership here are NOT here for the long haul, they DONT have experience, and they are too inexperienced to make a productive choice in the products they use (eg: no more nails for headstock repairs). How can someone effectively submit a "report" for a tool when they havent used a simular one? How can a membership counteract claims, if they have all not used a simular tool, etc?

The membership base here is primarily a younger adult, with lots of enthusiasm, and no money. They look for alternative methods, which are not as effective as long term tried and tested methods, then rave about it on the forum. When a small small minority of people, who ARE, and HAVE been in the game for a while, come in and express their concerns, they are lost in the sea of back slapping, and congratulations from others that really have no idea. This is why other, proffessional luthiers dont hang out here. They arent coming here for info, its not here, its at MIMF.

MIMF has a dedicated team of long term luthiers, who can spot the rubbish, and deal with it. This forum is not run by the same type of people (and thats what makes it the way it is, thats is cool, i prefer hanging out here), and the moderating team dont/wont/cant jump on anyone promoting unsafe techniques, dangerous methods, incorrect materials, etc etc. Case in point: "how to install a skunk stripe" in the tutorial section.

Those that DO, and CAN make quality reports on items, tools, materials, glues, finishes, etc, are much better off going to MIMF, and having the entire "database" stored over there, rather than spread a variety of material throughout numerous different sources.

If you think you're better than the general statements ive made about members here (i know someone will cry), then go prove yourself over at MIMF by submitting a report. Lets see how you go.

[westhemann]

the problem with this idea, is that the majority of people submitting the posts would have no, or very little, real world experience over long periods of time, using that, or simular products. Kinda like the food dyes for wood stains, we have seen in the past. Its repeated work, compared to the usability of other simular products, in a controlled (well, somewhat) enviroment that will produce results and reports worth saving. The majority of the membership here are NOT here for the long haul, they DONT have experience, and they are too inexperienced to make a productive choice in the products they use (eg: no more nails for headstock repairs). How can someone effectively submit a "report" for a tool when they havent used a simular one? How can a membership counteract claims, if they have all not used a simular tool, etc?

you would have to make it where only certain people were eligible to post in it...and then people would be crying about the unfairness.

the MOST practical way to do it would be to make whatever tut you have the experience to make,then after the info is in...have a mod who also has some serious knowledge of various build methods clean out the inevitable b.s. posts and stupid comments,pin it,and close it.

that is the ONLY way it would work in the forum.

one more possibility is to make the tutorial on your own,ask certain members privately to contribute their experiences in a text format,put it all together,and submit it to brian for the main site tutorials...then leave a link to it in a pinned topic on the forum...and let people ask the questions in that forum topic,but the first post would always have the link in an easily accessible first page.

see what i mean?it's alot of work,and i don't think the mods we have left have the time to deal with cleaning and pinning threads.after all...there ARE only two of them now...and they both have full time jobs...of those two i think scott has the most knowledge of building...so it would be up to him alone to figure out what's b.s. and what isn't

[verhoevenc]

Perry.... if you don't have anything productive to say... don't bother saying it. I don't want to hear about your bitching, that's not what I started this thread for, I started it for people to post their OPINIONS on glues usefulness in certain situations, often dealing with other glues. If I wanted to hear bitching I would have made a thread about your sexual abilities. You know exactly how I feel about you, and that I've asked you before not to be involved in my threads, and this is a perfect reason why!

Hopefully, dispite Perry's ability to take the fun out of things, hopefully people will post their opinions regardless of his mumblings above.

Chris

[westhemann]

Perry.... if you don't have anything productive to say... don't bother saying it. I don't want to hear about your bitching, that's not what I started this thread for, I started it for people to post their OPINIONS on glues usefulness in certain situations, often dealing with other glues. If I wanted to hear bitching I would have made a thread about your sexual abilities. You know exactly how I feel about you, and that I've asked you before not to be involved in my threads, and this is a perfect reason why!

Hopefully, dispite Perry's ability to take the fun out of things, hopefully people will post their opinions regardless of his mumblings above.

Chris

verhoenc,if you are not willing to hear all viewpoints and understand where other people are coming from,how will you ever learn and become wise?besides...you are being much more rude than perry,and your comments broke dforum rules..perry's did not..he was just being a little snide..what you just said would get you slapped across the room in any bar in texas

[verhoevenc]

I learn to become wize by SHARING, and thinking for MYSELF if what they share is worth-while.... and NOT attempting to bar others from sharing by ranting like Perry and his whole envoking of 'evaluation apprehension'. I LOVE hearing other view-points, that's WHY I started this thread, it's ABOUT hearing viewpoints, but tools like him come in and have to turn everything negative. We've had PM conversation about this, and he KNOWS where I stand with him, yet he continues to push.

Chris

PS: Wonderful wes, good thing I'm not in a bar in TX then right? Regardless, if someone doesn't stand up against his snide remarks, cause like you said they break no rules, then they go left unchecked. Think of it as civil disobedience. I may feel recourse from it, but atlesat it's not gone unsaid, and hopefully Perry will quit being Perry.

[rhoads56]

settle down youngster.

I didnt care, nor did i even look, at who posted the original message in this thread. Its irrelevant, as i was replying to SOUTHPA.

We have been through this MANY times before, and its NEVER taken off.

Get your head out of the darkness buddy, you'll fall over.

[verhoevenc]

You think you're SO cool and smart don't you? You just reply in your same snide elitest attitude. Mostly likely cause you think you're an amazing builder, when really, your builds aren't all that impressive. Start checking who's threads they are, cause I LITERALLY want nothing to do with you, posts, PMs, nothing. Stay out of my threads, your comments are not welcome in them.

Chris

[fryovanni]

With all do respect(and I do respect many guys here). I would not have faith in a tutorial written and reviewed by a very narrow group(I am not putting down anyones knowledge or experience). Even Perry would have to agree he DOES NOT agree with every other "professional" out there, and yes even very experienced builders can be wrong. This is why the opinions of a larger group and regular evaluation of practice and thinking is important. This forum would benifit from developing a FAQ, but I honestly doubt it would be read. As irritating as constant repeating of the same questions is. It is what makes this forum easy going and fun(down side being the sloppy information,that is hard to get straight).

To try to get this back on track.....

Do you want to figure out what glue sticks to what glue?

What glues will not stick to?

What require surface prep is for a group of glues?

Is this limited to adhesion, or are you looking at all properties and +/- of using them for given applications?

Peace,Rich

Nevermind . Got better things to do.

[rhoads56]

You think you're SO cool and smart don't you? You just reply in your same snide elitest attitude. Mostly likely cause you think you're an amazing builder, when really, your builds aren't all that impressive. Start checking who's threads they are, cause I LITERALLY want nothing to do with you, posts, PMs, nothing. Stay out of my threads, your comments are not welcome in them.

Chris

No need to get personal now buddy!!

I let my clients dictate my sucess. I dont care if you enjoy my builds or not, the guitars are built for specific people, and they decide if ive achieved the required finished product.

For those that care, Chris is upset and this entire fued (one sided i might add, i could care less) started after he sent a bunch of extremely distasteful PMs (available on request mods) to me after i decided it was best to stand down from the Blues build, due to work commitments, and an extended holiday i had planned. Why he gets so worked up over text on a screen, and decides to lash out is beyond me.

Chris, you are the only one arguing here. You are showing a PRIME example of why this idea (of southpa's) wont work, you're a person who cant get over his own limited opinion, and accept the views of others.

[westhemann]

hmm...this is too bad,because,verhoenc,there is alot you could learn from perry and alot you could gain by being civil...even in the face of what you think are just bitchy comments.i can't tell you how many times perry has helped me via p.m. or even through reading his complaining..because there is almost always truth in what he says...and he really does know what he is doing better than most.ever think maybe it's culture shock?maybe people are just more straightforward and less politically correct in australia...

regardless as to whether it is his culture or just his personal manner,i have never had any dishonesty from perry...he tells me his exact opinion about whatever i ask and never blows smoke up my ass...and when what you want are straight answers and honest opinions,you learn to appreciate that more than the generic "good work" and "clean build" comments everyone dishes out constantly around here.

besides...don't disrespect perry's guitar building....he is very,very good...and i would never hesitate to comission a build from him....because i know it would be top quality.

[rhoads56]

With all do respect(and I do respect many guys here). I would not have faith in a tutorial written and reviewed by a very narrow group(I am not putting down anyones knowledge or experience). Even Perry would have to agree he DOES NOT agree with every other "professional" out there, and yes even very experienced builders can be wrong.

Exactly. It will become the opinion of one, or two pro's. The membership base here is not proffessional enough to provide a vast variety of experienced opinion. Thats not a dig, its fact. Its what makes this place the way it is, and thats a good thing.

Now, who wants to misconstrue what ive said now?

[westhemann]

i agree with perry...this place is like that bar i mentioned earlier..where everyone just meets to discuss guitars.

some are experienced and crotchety,and some are inexperienced and think they are smarter than anyone else already,and the others fall edverywhere in between.

sometimes there are peyton place dramas...but that is a side effect of having open discussions.

verhoenc...unfortunately for you,you don't own this thread or it's contents just because you started it.if you only want limited responses then you should use the p.m. box and write directly to the one you want to talk to...might be more useful to you.

[verhoevenc]

No, ya'll are NOT getting the point of my anger. You keep saying things like "listen to what others have to say." What got me mad is the fact that Perry's first post sent out the message NOT to share one's opinions. Which I think is WRONG. A big reason Bush and his cohorts come under so much fire is because they squelch dissenting opinion, which leads to group-think... which then leads to things like space shuttles blowing up. Ie: it's not good. Whether someone's opinion is wrong or not, you'll be the better for having heard it regardless and being able to form your own opinions based on it and everything else you know.

So then you might say, "Then why are you trying to squelch Perry's opinion." And the only reason I'm doing that is I find that whenever he posts, it's not helpful towards the discussion, but in fact just deters others from contributing, like his rant about how no one will care because PG people arne't professional enough, and we should jsut go to the MIMF for this kind of thing. If he so decides to start getting off his high horse, and actually contributing constructively, agreeing OR dissenting opinions, THEN he is welcome. But I find him to be more trouble than he's worth.

Also, it's not culture shock, I spent most of my life in the asia/pacific area. If anything, American is culture shock for me even though I'm from here. So that's not the case.

Chris

PS: And yes, I do feel extremely strongly about what happened to the Blues Tribute Bass build. If you want to bring that up, I'll be more than happy to explain myself on how I thought that what you did was extremely disrespectful and rude. Plus, that's NOT what started this, you were in poor favor with me long before that, for the same reasons I've listed above for you still being in it now.

PPS: Lastly, as a side-note, I wasn't insulting your ABILITY to build, I can't, I've never played one of your guitars. I was merely saying that they are not impressive, especially compared to alot of the creativity I see around here. I said 1- because I believe it, and 2- to evince the reasoning why I think you're so unrightfully cocky, and thus why I think you're on a high-horse, which I mentioned earlier and felt needed explaining. Accusations like that go nowhere without reasoning for having them, which I explained. So really... you attitude was asking for it.

[westhemann]

like his rant about how no one will care because PG people arne't professional enough, and we should jsut go to the MIMF for this kind of thing.

you must realize he didn't really say that...you know you misconstrued his words.i'm not going to reinterpret what he actually said because i think you know very well what he actually said.

you should also know that when i,perry,bp,lovekraft,scott,and kevan and brian were all in the mod section on a daily basis seeing to the day to day cleaning up of this place,that we all had extensive experience with each other...i am sure perry has more basis for respect of bp than you think he does.

people's reasons are there own...just like part of the reason i left as a mod and signed off the internet for a year is mine and mine alone.the first part of understanding what others are saying is to realize that you are not the center of everything...everybody else is the same as you...juyst struggling through personal,family,and priofessional issues at all times trying to make life work for them...

are you still in school,v?because you talk as if you are young and a bit unable to see outside of yourself...it's not an insult...that's normal at a young age...i just think you need to start a little self analysis now so you don't end up in your 40s and still self involved to this degree..like another member of this board i won't mention...he knows who he is.

[verhoevenc]

Are you kidding!? He essentially ripped people who contribute in good faith a new one. If I was someone about to come in and post a reply and read that, I'd turn right away and not bother. Like I said, evaluation apprehension. If you don't know what it is, go look it up. So, even though, according to you, he didn't yell "GO AWAY" loud enough, the feeling was more than implied.

Chris

[Southpa]

Ahhh, thats why I like this forum, SO much entertainment! Anyway Perry, I understand where you're coming from. I guess I was speaking from my own worldly experience/expertise with various products, tools etc. and their applications. I might be building a guitar a year, got no shop and my progress is limited mostly by my own laziness and the weather. But I've been around the block a couple times in my work history and it mostly boils down to common sense.

And yes, there ARE quite a few people who simply don't know what they are talking about in one sense. "Didn't work? Then you must have been using it/doing it wrong" is usually the case. One of the main pre-requisites for setting up any kind of review database or whatever is that those that contribute fully understand the item's applications. You can't say a certain brand of lacquer is no good simply because it didn't stick when shooting it in the back yard in sub-zero weather.

But you CAN say its definitely not feasible to use it in those conditions, no brainer there. I don't want to hear from anybody who doesn't read the label on the container it came in.

[westhemann]

Are you kidding!? He essentially ripped people who contribute in good faith a new one. If I was someone about to come in and post a reply and read that, I'd turn right away and not bother. Like I said, evaluation apprehension. If you don't know what it is, go look it up. So, even though, according to you, he didn't yell "GO AWAY" loud enough, the feeling was more than implied.

Chris

i am sorry chris..i think we have all stopped listening to you now.take a deep breath,sign off,go to bed,and come back in the morning after a good night's sleep.i think all of us longtimers who have been here frfom the beginning(like perry)understand exactly what perry is saying.you know..he is a v.i.p. for a reason...they don't just give those badges out to anybody who types alot.

[unklmickey]

Gentlemen,

i know electronics, but anyone else who has posted on this thread knows volumes more about building than i do!

still, i can't say that i am impressed my the lack of tolerance and restraint shown here.

especially in the wake of current events.

i KNOW i'm just a newbie. but i ask that everybody push back from their keyboards and take a breath.

and think about something i said earlier today. it just might change the entire tone of this conversation:

"and remember to value those who remain, knowing each conversation, might possibly be our last with them."

at least i hope it might.

my sincerest regards,

unk

[verhoevenc]

Wes, maybe you've stopped listening to me simply because you don't understand the logic I'm using and the academic grounding in management it has. I've been talking to others on the side that seem to know what I've said cause they're able to converse over it. So aparently people are reading and listening. So please don't speak for everyone when the opinion is merely your own.

Chris

[rhoads56]

For Chris's sake, and his friends in the background who dont want to chime in here, nor post with their own names, but like to snigger and poke via PMs...

MIMF is like the pit area of a formula one race meet. Everyone knows everyone, the big names are there, and if something silly is suggested for the cars, there are fifteen people ready with a "we tried that already" come back. They are the leaders in their field, and they respect each others opinion, because they have all been and done the hard yards to get there.

PROJECT GUITAR is like the grand stand. Lots of race enthusiasts, but no real race bred people. Lots of chit chat and excitement, but no hard racing experience. Sure, they went for a race day at the local track and even won the local go kart tournament, but they are really (overall) just amatuers. Thats cool, EVERYONE was an amatuer at one stage, even the guys in pitlane.

The grandstand has a buzz. Its cool, lots of new faces to meet, and they even get together for a mexican wave every now and again, but they couldnt build a race winning car unless they had guidance. Sure, they could spend a bunch of time researching and testing to see if something works, but wouldnt it be better just to go see the race manuals in the pitstop area, and talk to the head mechanics with all the tried and true info?

Wouldnt it be easier for the grandstand fans to just spend some time chatting with the drivers, the mechanics, and the guys that are doing this day in, day out?

MIMF HAS an enormous database of information, run by a team of professional luthiers from all backgrounds, in a variety of different social and economic enviroments. Any discussion that is found to not have achieved anything is discarded, and for those that resulted in a positive or negative answer, is archived for all to see. Free.

What was proposed, was we START ALL OVER AGAIN FROM SCRATCH, and develop our own database of info. The problem is, we DONT have the teams of professional luthiers (we have a handful), nor do we have a crack team of librarians sorting out info and pages of info... but we have a hell of a lot of younger people, all wanting their experience to be "the one".

Sometimes its better to let SOMEONE else do what they are already doing, because there is no way you can catch them. MIMF is very much moreso respected than Project Guitar, in regards to quality of information. Project Guitar is much more of a fun interactive enviroment, where people can be more personal with each other. None is better than the other, they just have DIFFERENT ROLES.

Now, Chris, you can misconstrue my words as much as you like. You can lose sleep, and bitch to your nameless buddies, but when it comes down to it, essentually you are against ANYTHING i suggest, simply because you have a long standing grudge against me, for reasons you cant explain. If you want to continue living like that, its your call. Im sleeping well every night, not getting worked up over someone's opinion on the other side of the world. I havent, and dont need to make personal attacks against you, or your buddies. You can imagine i did though, if it justifies your aggression.

[westhemann]

Wes, maybe you've stopped listening to me simply because you don't understand the logic I'm using and the academic grounding in management it has. I've been talking to others on the side that seem to know what I've said cause they're able to converse over it. So aparently people are reading and listening. So please don't speak for everyone when the opinion is merely your own.

Chris

don't understand logic do i?guess what?my intelligence quotient puts me squarely in the top 2 % of the country,with the highest scoring in logic...so just MAYBE your logic is lacking a bit...i see absolutely no logic in your posts...only emotional banter.

for example "i know i am right because i have recieved p.m.s from others on my side"

that is not logic.that always happens where kids get together and commiserate without doing anything to actually correct the root of the problem

"this guy is mean and he always picks on me"...well,sometimes that can be the case in life...sometimes people are unreasonable...but i see nothing in perry's post that is an attack against anybody,only a statement of an issue he feels is of value in this discussion.

you attacked on the other hand,in a schoolyard manner...that's an "academic grounding in management?"

i AM in costruction management...i have been running my own jobs for many years now..have turned in hundreds of them on time and with good quality...and i see zero management skills used in your postings.sorry,but i must be honest with what i see,perry can be negative and i'm not saying that he can't...but why shouldthat dictate how you respond?

just something to think about...if you have the facilities...but i have written enough.hopefully you will think about what is written here instead of simply defending your feelings or running after others who will commiserate with you.

reading a book in management and taking a course does not automatically give you the skills...it takes years to develop that type of skill