thewongster Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Ive run into a problem. I want to paint the side of my tele black, yet I want the clearcoat to be minwax fast drying poly in a rattlecan. But I cant seem to find any sort of black poly urethane. so I think I have to use lacquer. What should I use? ive tried using laquer clearcoat, but ive had bad experiences with it. Ive heard that krylon can go with poly or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 You realize that there's a specific section for this kind of question, right? And if you do a search through that section, you might actually find your answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mammoth guitars Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Just use acrylic black in the rattle can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewongster Posted February 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 You realize that there's a specific section for this kind of question, right? And if you do a search through that section, you might actually find your answer? Yes mickguard, ive searched. Ive always searched before posting. Thats why im confused in the first place. People say that tehres certain laquers theat can be mixed with poly. But then I see people that have been unsuccesful, like I think southpa? the poly just peeled right off the guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Yes mickguard, ive searched. Ive always searched before posting. Thats why im confused in the first place. People say that tehres certain laquers theat can be mixed with poly. But then I see people that have been unsuccesful, like I think southpa? the poly just peeled right off the guitar. Which is why I'm suggesting you post and search in the finishing section --you're more likely to attract the attention of the finishing specialists here (some people only go to the section that directly interests them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewongster Posted February 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Ok, can someone move this post to that forum please? I dont want to double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 i was wondering how long it was going to take you to ask Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlGeeEater Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Poly doesnt work over lacquer, especially the Minwax stuff. Just for the hell of it, a few months ago I sprayed a test piece with McFaddens Nitro & then sprayed a few coats of the Minwax poly over it. I'm looking at the test piece right now, & a lot of the poly is lifting, cracking and the nitro is still soft underneath. I think you get the idea. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewongster Posted February 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 hmmmm ok, what would you recommend to use with the minwax stuff, taht would get me a black finish? Is there some kind of other paint besides laquer? I would try to order online... but I dont think its legal to ship paint for safety reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 (edited) Lets set some things straight regarding Minwax poly and compatibility issues. First read this: http://www.minwax.com/products/protective/lacquer-faq.cfm What happened to me did not involve Minwax oil-based poly over lacquer. I used a water based varathane over an acrylic lacquer. Both poly and varathane require more of a mechanical bond to stick to the underlying surface as they are relatively inert, compared to lacquer. That means the underlying surface must be scuffed thoroughly to give some "tooth" to the surface, this provides the mechanical bond. The reason why the varathane peeled off so easily was not so much the fact that it was water based or the fact that there was a compatibility issue with the lacquer. It was because I did not scuff the lacquer, ya live and ya learn. Of course its not wise to try mixing finish materials and hope to have a long lasting durable surface. Especially when messing around with the volatile lacquers. If you start with lacquer then its best to follow thru with lacquer. HOWEVER, you CAN apply poly over most any existing finish so long as the existing finish is totally cured. In the case of lacquers this only applies when ALL reactive components (solvents like acetone, MEK , etc) in the lacquer have been rendered inert over a LONG period of time. Laying poly over fresh lacquer is folly, but a finish that is years old needs only a good scuffing and the new poly should bond and not react with the lacquer. There are also some solvents in poly that need to gas off but not near the quantities you would find in nitro or acrylic lacquer. So the first few coats should be realtively thin and allowed to cure completely before continuing. This ensures that those solvents to not penetrate too deep and reactivate the lacquer. I've cleaned fully cured lacquer surfaces with acteone before and have had no problems, so long as the acetone is not allowed to settle for very long. So applying lacquer over ANY other paint, aside from lacquer, is a BIG no no, no matter how old the existing finish is. So bottom line: lacquer over poly = NO, not at any time poly over lacquer = only when lacquer has been totally cured, we're talking many months to years curing time. Edited February 4, 2007 by Southpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlGeeEater Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 (edited) Southpa - I've actually had good results spraying lacquer over factory poly. I've done a fair share of refinishes without stripping the factory paint, and they're all still fine as far as I know. As far as minwax poly, or any other non industrial type brands, I probaly wouldn't spray lacquer over them. Scuffing existing factory paint with 320 sandpaper, then spraying lacquer works fine. I forgot to mention this in my previous post, but the lacquer on the test piece was not totally cured before I sprayed the poly over it which is why the poly lifted, cracked and flaked right off. The lacquer was still gasing off solvents, obviously messing up the poly finish over it. Although, you SHOULD be safe spraying anything over a fully cured based, but testing on scrap is key. Chris Edited February 4, 2007 by AlGeeEater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnewman Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 I've read a fair bit about finishing in a few books. Some of the woodworking-specific books mention that shellac will stick to pretty much anything and can often be used between layers of incompatible finishes to make them stick. I don't know whether or not it would work in this case, but it's something to at least think about and maybe try on a test piece if you can't come up with any other options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Although, you SHOULD be safe spraying anything over a fully cured based, but testing on scrap is key. I've been wondering about this -- I'd like to use transparent paint (the acrylic-based type used to paint car windows, headlights, etc) under a nitro lacquer because I can't find transparent nitro colors. So as long as I let the color coat cure, I should be okay? How many days? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 lacquer over poly = NO, not at any time poly over lacquer = only when lacquer has been totally cured, we're talking many months to years curing time. From my experience, spraying lacquers, poly, single and two part, etc etc etc, this is totally OPPOSITE to what ive found, what ive been told, and what the manufacturers recommend. If you put any type of solvent evaporation type 'paint' under a chemical reaction hardening 'paint', the top coat will lift. Fender sprays nitro over a poly base for their closet classic custom shop guitars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlGeeEater Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 I've been wondering about this -- I'd like to use transparent paint (the acrylic-based type used to paint car windows, headlights, etc) under a nitro lacquer because I can't find transparent nitro colors. So as long as I let the color coat cure, I should be okay? How many days? I'm not too sure about nitro over acrylic, but I've sprayed Dupli-Color clear over a burst finished with nitro, and the (test) body is still fine. I'd def. test on scrap first if you can, but again i'm not expert. I'd imagine you should be fine if the base totally cures, and you dust on the lacquer coats. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 (edited) What mammoth said....use Krylon black, let it set up until its just tacky, then start laying coats of the Minwax poly over that. That's what I did for the blackburst, sides and back on my doubleneck. The rattle can poly goes on very thin, you need a lot of coats but you can't lay down more than ~3 at a time 30 minutes in between each....after 3 coats, you need to let it cure for a day, then rough up with 400-600 and go again....repeat until you've built up the thickness that you want. Edited February 5, 2007 by erikbojerik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 I've been wondering about this -- I'd like to use transparent paint (the acrylic-based type used to paint car windows, headlights, etc) under a nitro lacquer because I can't find transparent nitro colors. So as long as I let the color coat cure, I should be okay? How many days? I'm not too sure about nitro over acrylic, but I've sprayed Dupli-Color clear over a burst finished with nitro, and the (test) body is still fine. I'd def. test on scrap first if you can, but again i'm not expert. I'd imagine you should be fine if the base totally cures, and you dust on the lacquer coats. Chris I just found out that the company that makes the nitro I bought is pretty close by to me, so I'm going to call them and see what they say --with any luck, they'll already have a tinted varnish in the color I'm looking. That way there's no worries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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