Wood For Bass Neck?

[docbass]

I'm going to try my first bass neck build. It will be a 34" scale, neck through hard maple with Pao fingerboard. I've read a couple things regarding flat vs. quarter sawn wood for a bass neck. Most recently, that flat sawn is best for a bass neck. Is one really bettter than the other for a bass neck? Is flat sawn more flexible than quarter? What's your experience/advice?

Just thought I'd check in with you all before I go off to the lumber yard.

[low end fuzz]

I'm going to try my first bass neck build. It will be a 34" scale, neck through hard maple with Pao fingerboard. I've read a couple things regarding flat vs. quarter sawn wood for a bass neck. Most recently, that flat sawn is best for a bass neck. Is one really bettter than the other for a bass neck? Is flat sawn more flexible than quarter? What's your experience/advice?

Just thought I'd check in with you all before I go off to the lumber yard.

(IMO) flatsawn is the best for 1 piece necks because you have the flexibility of flatsawn thru the neck with quartersawn characteristics on the sides keeping it sturdy from warping side to side; however, idont personnally like 1 piece bass necks; whereas i would say get (at least) 3 -1" thick flatsawn pieces and turn them on there side and laminate them that way so theyre all quarterd; much easier than finding a 3" piece of quartered stock

[rbjem]

Definitely laminate pieces of wood together. Usually a three piece neck is good, but you could go five and put in a couple thin strips of bubinga or even purpleheat.

The laminates will be much much stronger and very resistant to warping because of the fact that they will try to shift in different directions at different rates so they keep each other in check. Pretty much the little extra work laminates involve is well worth it in the long run.

[Desopolis]

let me just say, although I dont have tons of experience, Using a one piece flatsawn sounds like a bad Idea.

if the piece isnt even recommended for regular guitars, I dont see the extra length and tension of the bass strings making it much better. Regardless of how wide it is.

Also, depending on the flatsawn piece and material, it most likely WONT have Quartersawn characteristics on the edges. I have plenty of maple, Mahogany, paduak, ETC that is 6"+ and caries the same ring orientation. Unless your much closer to the heartwood, I dont see the grain doing that. also, if It did, Id say the piece was more likely to warp under tension.

I think that if looking for a one piece, a quartersawn would be the best Idea.

But your less likely to find that at a regular lumber yard.

what I would do, is get some hard flamed maple pieces(looks pretty) and cut the pieces so the grain orientation differs.

[Supernova9]

(IMO) flatsawn is the best for 1 piece necks because you have the flexibility of flatsawn thru the neck with quartersawn characteristics on the sides keeping it sturdy from warping side to side; however, idont personnally like 1 piece bass necks; whereas i would say get (at least) 3 -1" thick flatsawn pieces and turn them on there side and laminate them that way so theyre all quarterd; much easier than finding a 3" piece of quartered stock

That is just ridiculous. Essentially you've just said "Flat-sawn is best for 1 piece necks. Use quartersawn."

Can you not see how that is a blatant contradiction? I really wish you'd stop posting completely unfounded beliefs, and provide some EVIDENCE as to how flatsawn is more flexible, how flatsawn with quartersawn edges stops side to side movement, or any of the other things you've suggested.

[Edit]: And Desopolis - Fender uses flatsawn maple for guitar necks, and bass necks for that fact, why on earth do you therefore think that flatsawn wood isn't recommended? Over 50 years of mass production experience seems to suggest that flatsawn can be used.

Edited February 11, 2007 by Supernova9

[Jaam]

Someone posted a while ago something like "If you're going to build your own guitar why settle with the cheaper options that mass producers are forced into." Thats not the exact quote nor do I remember who said it but the idea still stands. Quartersawn is better but its just harder to get/more expensive.

[Supernova9]

Someone posted a while ago something like "If you're going to build your own guitar why settle with the cheaper options that mass producers are forced into." Thats not the exact quote nor do I remember who said it but the idea still stands. Quartersawn is better but its just harder to get/more expensive.

More expensive does not equal better. Your post just reads like a marketing spiel for a high-end guitar builder, who use (and charge more for) quartersawn necks. Maybe it's actually in their best interest to get you all thinking that quartersawn was the best?

Again, I asked for EVIDENCE, not the hype that perpetuates 'tone' myths suggested by many in the industry.

Fender and Gibson created the instruments that people covet. They did it with flatsawn maple or mahogany necks. That's evidence.

[fryovanni]

Good lord, After all the times this topic has come up we still get this kinda responce.

Docbass- You will do fine with flat or quartersawn(actual strength difference due to orientation will be slight at best). Try to find clear, straight grain, and very well dried wood. The best thing you can do is give the wood enough time to ensure it is well dried. As for the finer points of shrinkage rates(radial vs longtitudinal vs tangential). The mechanical properties of this wood, Glueing charictoristics and so on. You can find plenty of information with a simple search or two(search here or there you will find it).

Peace,Rich

[Jaam]

My post wasn't an answer for your EVIDENCE inquiry but to docbass's question. It was a simple answer to a simple question. I don't know if this is evidence for you or not but its an interesting article to read.

[Primal]

(IMO) flatsawn is the best for 1 piece necks because you have the flexibility of flatsawn thru the neck with quartersawn characteristics on the sides keeping it sturdy from warping side to side; however, idont personnally like 1 piece bass necks; whereas i would say get (at least) 3 -1" thick flatsawn pieces and turn them on there side and laminate them that way so theyre all quarterd; much easier than finding a 3" piece of quartered stock

Like Supernova9 said, you just contradicted yourself. Besides, you say you like quartersawn for side-to-side stiffness. It makes far more sense to utilize the stiffness of quartersawn wood in the same plane as the tension put on the neck (i.e. tension from the strings -- front-to-back stiffness).

And Supernova9, I think you need to take a chill pill. No need to lash out at someone. Take your own advice and use EVIDENCE to disprove someone, rather than insulting them. At least that is constructive...

[Supernova9]

Like Supernova9 said, you just contradicted yourself. Besides, you say you like quartersawn for side-to-side stiffness. It makes far more sense to utilize the stiffness of quartersawn wood in the same plane as the tension put on the neck (i.e. tension from the strings -- front-to-back stiffness).

And Supernova9, I think you need to take a chill pill. No need to lash out at someone. Take your own advice and use EVIDENCE to disprove someone, rather than insulting them. At least that is constructive...

I just said it was ridiculous. Where's the insult? It is blunt, I'll give you that, but subtle hasn't worked when asking him to put forward supporting reasons for all these things posted before. The Litchfield of wood choice voodoo on this board.

[Desopolis]

(IMO) flatsawn is the best for 1 piece necks because you have the flexibility of flatsawn thru the neck with quartersawn characteristics on the sides keeping it sturdy from warping side to side; however, idont personnally like 1 piece bass necks; whereas i would say get (at least) 3 -1" thick flatsawn pieces and turn them on there side and laminate them that way so theyre all quarterd; much easier than finding a 3" piece of quartered stock

That is just ridiculous. Essentially you've just said "Flat-sawn is best for 1 piece necks. Use quartersawn."

Can you not see how that is a blatant contradiction? I really wish you'd stop posting completely unfounded beliefs, and provide some EVIDENCE as to how flatsawn is more flexible, how flatsawn with quartersawn edges stops side to side movement, or any of the other things you've suggested.

[Edit]: And Desopolis - Fender uses flatsawn maple for guitar necks, and bass necks for that fact, why on earth do you therefore think that flatsawn wood isn't recommended? Over 50 years of mass production experience seems to suggest that flatsawn can be used.

Ive seen this discussion before with members of the board

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=25897

so my knowledge is based upon that.

The general opinion is you can do fine with a flatsawn piece if its decently straight grained without runout. but that it can warp overtime.

Theres a diagram posted in that thread for future reference.

I wonder who started that thread? oh wait.. I did.

also generaly mentioned here:

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24315

and here:

http://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/quartersawn.htm

also, for those of us who belive the mass marketing scheme by custom shops, heres some threads on it:

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=26446

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=26414

sorry to come off like a jerk, but you came out pretty hostile.

PS I love the search function!!

[low end fuzz]

(IMO) flatsawn is the best for 1 piece necks because you have the flexibility of flatsawn thru the neck with quartersawn characteristics on the sides keeping it sturdy from warping side to side; however, idont personnally like 1 piece bass necks; whereas i would say get (at least) 3 -1" thick flatsawn pieces and turn them on there side and laminate them that way so theyre all quarterd; much easier than finding a 3" piece of quartered stock

That is just ridiculous. Essentially you've just said "Flat-sawn is best for 1 piece necks. Use quartersawn."

Can you not see how that is a blatant contradiction? I really wish you'd stop posting completely unfounded beliefs, and provide some EVIDENCE as to how flatsawn is more flexible, how flatsawn with quartersawn edges stops side to side movement, or any of the other things you've suggested.

[Edit]: And Desopolis - Fender uses flatsawn maple for guitar necks, and bass necks for that fact, why on earth do you therefore think that flatsawn wood isn't recommended? Over 50 years of mass production experience seems to suggest that flatsawn can be used.

actually, what i beleive i said was quarter sawn is always best; final;

BUT-the chances of finding a 3" piece of perfectly quartered wood, especially for somebody not used to staring down rough lumber would be impossible, if only 3/4 of your neck is quartered with a big wonk/trailoff, whats the point? use rift sawn, youve already killed the point of hand picking your wood; on the other hand finding a perfectly flatsawn peice is really easy because most wood places have wood that shows off the flatsawn look,and when you look down the edges theyre usaully quartered, which will give you technically 2 quartered outside pieces with 'whatever' in the middle;

ive always said this , communicating it may not come across good, but i dont consider the things you pointed out as contridictions, more or less the best alternatives to perfect (IMO) conditions; besides i dont need anymore proof than the assortment of guitars ive held with multiple problems due to the same imperfections in their neck woods;now i have no 'scientific' evidence, but when the neck warps off to the low e and you turn it around to see runout on the right side, idont sit there and ask it questions; and when you see the same thing time and time again, i take it as all i need; visa versa when you get a 20 year old guitar that hasnt needed as much as a truss rod turn, you might take note in how the neck is structured.

so i hope that helps get across what i mean; but if this some attack on my belief to backup your beloved fender and gibson (who for the past years is a total joke btw) i wont have any of it;thanx

(oh im gonna get some **** for that one)

Edited February 12, 2007 by low end fuzz

[doug]

I agree with Rich.

A neck is the sum of it's parts. Wood acts like wood. Flat or quartered, both have their own characteristics to deal with. In my experience a thick board will warp more during the shaping process than a thin board. That's not to say every thick board warps, it's just more likely. Hence, using the lamination concept decreases that chance more than a one piece neck. It's kinda like driving, sure you could roll through stop signs but that might increase your chances of an accident as compared to routinely making a complete stop.

Something to consider here: Fender, Gibson, etc. buy HUGE quantities of stock. With that comes the power to dictate just what sort of stock they receive. There is no doubt that they are selective with the lot.

-Doug

[fryovanni]

Jaam- With regards to the link you posted. The information about "rift sawn" wood may cause some confusion. I am not sure where the information is coming from(source), but most people I have dealt with(wood dealers). Refer to rift as wood that has grain closer to 45 degrees to the"top" surface. Quarter sawn refers to orientaion closer to perpendicular, and flat closer to parallel. The industry does not hold to a specific number of degrees of tolerance for these orientations so it can be hard to nail down(with the possible exeption of acoustic soundboard billets in which they are pretty specific- Within 5 deg., between 5-10deg. of quarter etc..).

The key is that you have directional shrinkage and expansion that is somewhat predictable. Along the grain(longtitudinal) very little shrinkage or expansion occurs. Radial(this would be your quartersawn orientation) shrinkage is generally less than you Tangential(this would be your flatsawn orientation). Different woods have different rates of shrinkage in these planes. Generally speaking Radial is close to half the rate for most woods(although some woods are known for having values that are almost equal such as honduran mahogany and this makes them very appealing). With either orientation(close to quarter or close to flat) you will have pretty good results from even shrinkage and expansion as it relates to the fretboard plane. Again straighter grain keep the longtitudinal(lowest shrink/exp.) in line with scale length. Avoiding wild grain orientaion is best(try not to use wood that rolls from flat to quarter-that will make for odd twisting). After wood has dried the first time it can not accept core moisture as readily(the structure changes a bit). So dry it well before you use it and you will do well. Doug mentioned thicker wood seems to have more problems. This probably relates to it being harder to get even drying and finding even orientation on thicker pieces(which I have found to be true also). Thinner wood(I mean very thin wood 1/8" range) is more suseptable to rapid changes in humidity(can be very problematic on finished acoustic guitars), but in the laminated application it becomes a thicker piece and the problem is not appearant.

Peace,Rich

[cherokee6]

Damn! I think I'm gonna think twice before I post anything else. You guys are tough!

[docbass]

Whew, I'm almost sorry I asked. I did however learn something about wood and opinions. Blessings.

[fryovanni]

Whew, I'm almost sorry I asked. I did however learn something about wood and opinions. Blessings.

Did you get the information you need? That is the main thing

Damn! I think I'm gonna think twice before I post anything else. You guys are tough!

You shouldn't have to feel that way. If you have a question you should get a fair answer or a point in the right direction. If you can help someone with a responce that is what this forum is all about. There are many other well meaning members monitor responces to try to keep information as good as possible. Which is very good IMO, I know I have been corrected when I was not clear or had misconceptions.

Peace,Rich

[Supernova9]

Damn! I think I'm gonna think twice before I post anything else. You guys are tough!

Hmm, I can see how my posts are a bit hostile, and that's not how I intended it to turn out - it's just we've done this discussion to death about a hundred times since I've been on the board, and we always seem to get some answers that I'd term 'tone voodoo', It gets kinda tiring. I'm not knocking low end fuzz here - his second post was good, useful insight, I think my post came more from a misinterpretation of his first post more than anything - sorry dude.

I'd agree with Rich - the key is not so much whether flatsawn or quarter-sawn, but the thorough drying/acclimatisation, and uni-directional grain (i.e. straight down the shaft of the neck regardless of orientation).

[cherokee6]

Maybe we should direct a member to a prior post or do a search first?

[docbass]

Maybe we should direct a member to a prior post or do a search first?

Yeah, that would probably be a good idea when new folks like me can't find what they need when searching. Thanks again.

[fryovanni]

Maybe we should direct a member to a prior post or do a search first?

Yeah, that would probably be a good idea when new folks like me can't find what they need when searching. Thanks again.

I figured the question was simple enough to answer, and that was the quickest way to respond. More info of course could be found ragarding other aspects of wood, and that could be dug into deeper with a couple searches. I will be curious as to how the question gets answered next time(within a month or two), It gives me an idea as to what was taken from the topic before. Good luck with your bass neck and have fun!

Peace,Rich

[postal]

Something to consider here: Fender, Gibson, etc. buy HUGE quantities of stock. With that comes the power to dictate just what sort of stock they receive. There is no doubt that they are selective with the lot.

-Doug

Dont think so. They get multiple pallets of wood at a time. When they say flatsawn is fine, the company filling the order would send rift or flat, but probably no quartered because the supplier separates the quartered since it is worth more. Most maple suppliers also filter out the birdseye and flame because they also know it is worth more, but on rare occasion you see a MIM or MIA strat with a flamed neck (regular line, not custom shop). The quality of the wood is dictated origionaly by the supplier, and the factory will only reject it if they find a specific defect, or naturally some models even fender dictate quartered wood, and that is all that is acceptable for that model. I think Eric Johnson strats are all quartered for example. Look at the fender maple fretboards- the ones with a separate fretboard, not the 1 piece neck, almost all of it is rift, some is flat, but you almost never see a good quarter. To the HUGE players, for the most part, "wood is wood" unless they find a defect.