Stumac Neck Jig Need Help Offering Reward

[Woodenspoke]

I want to point out this is for my personal use only.

I am interested in making a neck jig for myself and I know some home made plans were available but now cant be found, but I am not interested in home made versions of the Stiumac jig.

What I am looking for is a detailed description of the real Jig. Enough detail to make my own version. Most of the details like insert sizes and bushings I dont need. This can be a rough document and not a plan as long as all the hole locations are referenced from a known edge and are accurate. The chart is also needed.

I already have a (best guess) plan, drawn up from videos and pictures but I need to know how far off I am. I know others who have these plans too, but we are not in full agreement.

I will reward the person willing to help, with either one of my Pro Fret Benders (see the auction forum or Woodenspoke on eBay) or enough bone or buffalo horn (or both) nuts and saddles to make you happy and compensate you for your efforts. Or you can just do it to help out another member, your choice. I can provide you with my plans so you can correct them if that is easier.

Lines removed read full topic.

I already know how it works so I dont need lessons, this is construction support only. Please send me a personal message,do not post on this topic letting me know that you are willing to help.

Hopefully someone owns one and will be willing to come forward to help me get my personal jig right the first time.

Woodenspoke

*Post has been modified as not to offend other members*

Edited May 4, 2007 by Woodenspoke

[biliousfrog]

I can't help feeling that this is a little bit...um, dunno, off!

If you want to create plans on how to make a similar jig then I've not got a problem with that. I feel that StewMac are seriously overpriced on some things & I'm all for making your own tools if possible (so far I've made a fret bender, tang nipper & dozens of spool clamps for next to nothing) but I'm not sure how I feel about someone offering a reward for someone else's idea. If you have an idea of how it works then why not just offer that to the PG members?

What I've got a problem with, purely from what you've written so far, is that you seem to be purposely trying to take business away from Stewmac. If you offered an alternative product (or plans of an alternative) I wouldn't be so bothered but stealing someone else's design for personal gain seems very imoral & possibly illegal. Is that why you're asking for third parties to get involved rather than just buying the jig & backwards enginering it?

I'm sorry if I've got it completely wrong but it all seems a bit underhanded to me.

[thegarehanman]

My sentiments exactly, bilious.

In addition, I'd guess that anyone who can afford to shell out the cash for the stewmac neck jig, probably could care less about a free fret bender(which we've established can be built for $10-$20), or some nut blanks which are practically free when purchased in bulk anyhow. Why not just design your own? You know what the neck jig is designed to do; it's not an overly complicated process or tool, so just design your own.

Edited May 3, 2007 by thegarehanman

[soapbarstrat]

He said it's for personal use. Is that an effort to take business away from StewMac, more so than all the other DIY StewMac tool threads there have been ? Or is it just when it's a tool *you're* not interested in, it ain't cool then ?

How about this deal :

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=14027

From what I gathered about that thread, the guy bought fret-bender plans from LMI, then made his own drawing and parts list from the exact LMI plans. No one complained. You know why ?, because even all the jokers have to have frets pressed into their "guitar of the month" entries, and look properly radiused and seated, at least enough on the photos.

[Woodenspoke]

First both of you should read the post instead of making idiotic remarks about making a profit. I said "I will create high quality plans and provide a link to them which will be made available to everyone on this forum". I see no mention of selling anything. I said for personel use could that be any clearer.

FREE is this easier to understand.

Plus your comments on what I offered sounds like your a moron, what are you 10 years old. So you dont need what I have so move on and let someone who does help me, rather than just putting my offer down.

Maybe you can afford to buy the Jig so this is not an issue for you, I know many other members who would like the information posted so they can build their own. I dont want to spend that sort of cash for something I can build for 1/4 the cost. What about all the other plans posted, hey lets remove the $5 fret bender because it may cut into Stumac's business? Well your on the wrong forum if you are defending them here. I too am a Stumac customer and a luthier Supplier and a builder. I could just order the thing but honestly I dont want to.

So I am a little more direct and asked for help is that a crime. Plus I offered someone a reward to help me, again not to your liking.

I post on this site because I have the freedom to do so, unlike other forums who are supported by Stumac and regulate what information you can post. I wont even mention all the free ideas Stumac has "borrowed". To ask for help and offer a reward seems reasonable to me if thats the only way to get someones attention who owns the jig.

Woodenspoke

Edited May 3, 2007 by Woodenspoke

[Woodenspoke]

He said it's for personal use. Is that an effort to take business away from StewMac, more so than all the other DIY StewMac tool threads there have been ? Or is it just when it's a tool *you're* not interested in, it ain't cool then ?

How about this deal :

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=14027

From what I gathered about that thread, the guy bought fret-bender plans from LMI, then made his own drawing and parts list from the exact LMI plans. No one complained. You know why ?, because even all the jokers have to have frets pressed into their "guitar of the month" entries, and look properly radiused and seated, at least enough on the photos.

Thanks Soapbarstrat its nice to know someone on this forum can read english.

Woodenspoke

[Woodenspoke]

People always amaze me.

Woodenspoke

Edited May 3, 2007 by Woodenspoke

[cherokee6]

There has already been a tutorial on building one. The author stated that he bought the video on using the jig and designed it from there. I'm sure if you do a search you'll find it and be able to go from there.

[thegarehanman]

My apologies, I skimmed over the thread and missed the first line. My mistake. Were you able to read English, which as you point out I obviously can't, you would have noted that I had no problem with mimicking a design for personal use, as opposed to being for personal profit from the sales of replicas.

However, I don't know what qualifies a ten year old more than name calling.

Edited May 4, 2007 by thegarehanman

[Woodenspoke]

My apologies, I skimmed over the thread and missed the first line. My mistake. Were you able to read English, which as you point out I obviously can't, you would have noted that I had no problem with mimicking a design for personal use, as opposed to being for personal profit from the sales of replicas.

However, I don't know what qualifies a ten year old more than name calling.

Sorry about the dig but lets just say it aggravated me that you put my post down without reading it, and the products I make and sell. I apologize for the remark, yeah I guess I am the 10 year old.

Unfortunately the tendency for people here is to refer you to someone else's post to find answers rather than helping you out with what you really need. Just read this topic, its already started.

I could post what I have which are pretty detailed plans (what I have drawn from videos and pictures) and be hailed a hero, the guy with the plans, but I dont know its accuracy. Then someone would say well thats wrong and your back to square one. Yeah I believe Guitarfrenzy had some plans on a web site which is no longer up; but were they good plans? I know the Stumac jig works so why not copy it.

Your a member of this forum have you ever seen anyone go out of their way to help someone. From my experience its rare, so I took the unusual step and offered a reward as an incentive. Am I an idiot for doing it; possibly; depends if the incentive works.

This is my last post about my post.

Woodenspoke

Edited May 4, 2007 by Woodenspoke

[thegarehanman]

If someone asks a question that makes me think, I'll answer it in as much detail as I possibly can. If someone asks a question that isn't elementary but could easily be answered by some searching, I don't bother with it. If someone asks a question that's very simple and would be found via searching in seconds, I'll probably tell them such. However, there's another league of questions here on pg that pop up once in a while where it seems the person is trying to make an easy buck in a way that may seem a bit uncouth, that bothers me. That's obviously what I mistook yours for.

My opinion on the neck jig is that you should give you design a shot. If it doesn't work, really all you have to do is try different locations for the guages and supports, and possibly make a new beam for them to mount to. If you can't find someone who has one, I'm sure a few afternoons of fiddling with different positions will yield satisfactory results.

I suppose my mentality is derived from the fact that when I want to learn something or know the answer to something, I read up on the subject as much as possible using books, the internet, etc. Then, once I know the subject fairly well, if there's something I'm unclear about, I'll ask someone.

Enough ranting. Good luck finding someone with one. My guess is that only professional repair men or a handful of pro luthiers will have these things. Honestly, I've never had the need for one.

[dayvo]

Heres a link to the Neck Jig build tutorial

[biliousfrog]

My response was regarding direct replication of the StewMac item rather than a similar item that does the same thing. I didn't mention making a profit, the term I used was personal gain which, as you would gain detailed plans for personal use, does seem appropriate. However, making the plans available to the public is no longer personal & this is what makes me feel a little uneasy.

Fender, Gibson, PRS et al. aren't going to be bothered about their instruments being backwards engineered & used by a bunch of ameteur luthiers. It isn't going to affect their sales much as it is still going to be difficult to make an equivelent instrument for the price of just buying one. However, as with the PRS vs Gibson thing, it all changes when someone CAN compete.

StewMac, LMI etc. aren't going to be too bothered about rival products & plans unless they are better made & cheaper to buy &, even if they were, there's nothing that they can do apart from trying to compete effectively eg. dropping prices.

StewMac, LMI etc. ARE going to be bothered if plans are made available of THEIR product which has had hours of R&D time spent on it, manufacturing costs etc. Plus, it could also affect their sales directly if the people that buy their products (luthiers, woodworkers) are shown how to make the same item for less.

Again I want to stress that I have no problem with plans for a neck jig but I really don't like the idea of ripping off someone else's product. You might also want to look into any patents or copyrights attached to SM's products just in case.

[soapbarstrat]

It's gonna be tough to please Mr. Bilious. I have some ideas that might help with that, though. First, have your jig hold the guitar up-side-down, then level the fret-board with a special leveler that fits around the support rods, which will be against the fret-board surface. After you level the fret-board this way, there will just be little stumps of unsanded fret-board wood that you can pare off with a sharp chisel.

Instead of clamping the body down with ratchet straps, use two angry retired circus midgets to hold the body down firmly.

Instead of plain metal support rods, paint them red and white to look like candy canes. Also have the tops of the support rods bent like candy canes.

Instead of a pull down strap at the nut, have a pull sideways strap.

Instead of swivel top leveling pads for under the body, use 4 raw potatoes.

Don't put a big 'Erlwine Neck-Jig' logo on it, like I'm sure you were planning to do.

Don't use wood with the same grain lines as any StewMac neck-jig.

[biliousfrog]

I'm not asking for specs to be met in order to give approval. Do whatever the hell you want, it doesn't affect me in any way, I was just expressing my concerns.

I'll give a similar example & see what you think, you'll probably laugh & take the piss because it's obviously completely different but here we go....

If anyone on here buys one of Perry's amps, take it apart & send me the specs. I'll reward you with £50 cash & then post the specs on here for free so that you can make your own...saving you lots of money.

OR

I could make my own amp (not likely) & post the specs of that for free.

Which one of those options morally sounds like the best option, which one is least likely to piss off someone else & which one will earn me more respect amongst the community?

[Woodenspoke]

I'm not asking for specs to be met in order to give approval. Do whatever the hell you want, it doesn't affect me in any way, I was just expressing my concerns.

I'll give a similar example & see what you think, you'll probably laugh & take the piss because it's obviously completely different but here we go....

If anyone on here buys one of Perry's amps, take it apart & send me the specs. I'll reward you with £50 cash & then post the specs on here for free so that you can make your own...saving you lots of money.

OR

I could make my own amp (not likely) & post the specs of that for free.

Which one of those options morally sounds like the best option, which one is least likely to piss off someone else & which one will earn me more respect amongst the community?

Its hard to believe people can pick and choose what is or isn't ripping off an Idea. Did Perry build the thing from scratch or did he incorporate many ideas proven by others into his design. Just like Erlewine probably did with the neck jig and with most of his tool designs. I'm sure someone said why did I tell that guy; now he's making a fortune off my idea. It happens everyday. Instruments are OK in your book to copy but not Perry's amp?

Your belief that Perry's amp will not be copied or his ideas never used by others belays what the corporate world does; build on other peoples work. Not just the instrument industry but everywhere. Everything posted here resembling a product someone produces is a rip off of someone else's idea regardless if they say they thought of it first or made something that resembled the item in some way, function or form; this includes guitars. I correct that statement; 95% of the stuff I see here is a rip off. Just like the broken link to the "Plans" of someone else's jig, its a ripoff of the Stumac design plain and simple.

At least I'm honest about what I wanted to do and not hide behind it as my take on the design. This should earn me more respect as you call it for being the most honest forum member here. If you never looked at or followed one of the ideas posted here than you are of a higher class of forum member and can be called the "community standard". But if you incorporated any ideas from others into one of your tools, jigs, or designs than you are just as guilty, as you would put it as the rest of us non community standard members.

To that end I will withdraw my offer to post the plans and offer it in a personal message to anyone who wants it. I will remove that line from the original post. But it seems no one has the jig so its now turned into a topic on "forum ethics".

Woodenspoke

[rhoads56]

Its hard to believe people can pick and choose what is or isn't ripping off an Idea. Did Perry build the thing from scratch or did he incorporate many ideas proven by others into his design. Just like Erlewine probably did with the neck jig and with most of his tool designs. I'm sure someone said why did I tell that guy; now he's making a fortune off my idea. It happens everyday. Instruments are OK in your book to copy but not Perry's amp?

You know, i just spent 20 minutes typing about how, and why i developed 'my amp'.... but why should i defend myself?

Condensed version:

I did the hard yards, and used my proven method of research: trial and error (and lots of reading WWII issued valve manuals).

[biliousfrog]

What you've just said supports what I was saying exactly. People copy others ideas & incorporate them into their work all the time but the difference between incorporating ideas into a new project & simply re-selling it are different (I know that you're not selling it). Your fret benders are a great example, you've taken the basic idea that is tried & tested & made something more sturdy. Very few people will make an exact replica of a strat, tele, les paul, prs...they'll add something that improves the design for them. A tummy cut in a tele might not seem particularly radical but it's enough to make a difference, same with chambering a Les Paul or removing the heel on a Strat.

Your idea of releasing plans of a neck jig are great & I wholely support it. What I don't like the idea of is releasing the plans of someone else's idea...sorry but that's just how I feel & I wanted to express my feelings about it. I tried to keep my post(s) as chilled, friendly & helpful as possible, any other day & I might have gone on a rant but there's no need for that. You're not going to upset me by releasing them & I don't want to stop you from doing what you think is right, we're all grown-ups here (well mostly) so do whatever you want.

I personally think that a more mutually beneficial idea would be to get a discussion going on what works &/or doesn't with the StewMac jig, get some specs & see whether there's an improved way of doing things...& then make some plans. Incorporating ideas & trying to improve on them, not taking an idea & passing it on...fighting back with a better product rather than just offering the same thing for free. It just seems like a more productive way of doing things to me.

Sorry if I pi$$ed on your fire. I'm only one guy in a very large community of strangers so my opinion doesn't count for jack. Wait & see what other's have to say before dropping the idea completely.

[rhoads56]

Its no secret Brian wants advertising and funding, along with industry support from suppliers. You can be damn sure they wont hand over dollars for support, if the members here are blatantly offering work arounds, and plans, for stewmac products.