Wood And Shape Theory

[ShortestStraw]

Alright, first off... I new here. I don't know how much creds you guys will give me for just jumping right into the theory aspect of building guitars, but don't just go all out on me and be like "HAHA N00B!!1! GET LOST".

Back on topic (sorta, it's a bit of an unorganized rant)

One thing I noticed in MULTIPLE issues of Guitar Player/World mags is that whenever they put guitars up against eachother (something they did in the May issue of Player) was that MAHOGANY seems to always get high ratings. Look for yourself... Odd, isn't it?

Well... "What about your technique?" you inquire, right? haha

I was experimenting with materials and shapes and such for solid electric guitar bodies. I noticed something about how the guitar body resonates when it's backed with a half inch of Poplar, specifically a species of populus commonly called "Aspen". Try it yourself (or don't and just take my word for it)! Take a 1.5 inch thick piece of mahogany and slap on a half-inch thick piece of aspen. It doesn't matter how long/wide the piece is... Knock on it a couple times. Rings really nicely, doesn't it? Try knocking on the mahogany side, then on the aspen side. You might notice that it resonates a little better on the mahogany side.

Whether or not you like the way it resonates on a guitar is 100% personal opinion. But I love the way it screeches soft warm cries with a dimarzio Evolution set. Yes, screeches warm tones... kinda. I don't know how to describe it. It really depends on how chop it up. Bottom chops (see pic) will screech/deepen the tone, and top chops* (with no bottom chop) will keep the tone warm. This is of course probably the case for most woods, it just gets a little complicated when you start slapping on maple tops or mixing wood species.

Bottom Chop example:

That's just a rough cut I took on a friends camera, I wish I could have taken more pics... I don't have a cam.

I also wish I had another piece of mahogany that had such an EFFING BEAUTIFUL FLAME... I didn't at the time so I just slapped on a random piece of mahogany. Those two sides *are* both mahogany from the same tree though.

Note that the mahogany is on top. As said before, it resonates a little better when the mahogany's on top. And just to clarify, it is not just the mahogany creating the tone.

Pull what info you want from this little piece of doc. It's mostly for reference, of an opinion.

Have any of you tried a wood combo that you like? How about shape? It'd be nice to hear your theories on shape/type of wood as well.

Edited May 9, 2007 by ShortestStraw

[Ben]

I just know I wouldnt have used that nice flamed mahogany for an experiment!

[fryovanni]

I added my thoughts on differences in types of wood to this recent topic-Topic

What you are saying about the way the wood sound certainly sounds reasonable to me. Aspen is a very low density wood with low stiffness(in general). Mahogany by comparison is going to be stiffer and denser. What you have dome is basically the exact same idea Gibson used on the LP. Harder stiffer top wood(hard maple) and softer lower density wood on the back(Mahogany). Personally I believe it is how well the two woods compliment each other that makes for a good or bad combanation, and how much of each is used will be a factor in that balance. Not suprising, but a good observation .

Shape, will play hand in hand with overall density and stiffness as well as a whole lot of other factors(bridge position, scale length, neck and all its parts, electronics, how parts are attached, hardware, strings, and on and on) in determining the resonant frequencies that the body will favor as the electronics see it. This is a subject that you will have trouble being able to describe in general application(for all guitars). Because there are too many factors that play a role, and many of the differences will be subtle. A person could build a single shape/thickness/ trying to use woods with very similar properties for a long time making SMALL changes and trying to determine what does what and how this mod effects that mod. In the end you would have a pretty good idea of what your working with, and what the shape favors. Look at some of the guitars that people have really focused on(Telecasters, LP's, Strat's, and so on). You will see that these styles have been explored, modified, measured many times and people are still working it all out. That is the kind of research it will take to be able to speak to a specific shape(short of guesswork(theory), and limited observation).

All that said.... One thing and one thing only really matters. Does it sound good to you? If so, you nailed it! and that is perfect.

A comment on your observation;

One thing I noticed in MULTIPLE issues of Guitar Player/World mags is that whenever they put guitars up against eachother (something they did in the May issue of Player) was that MAHOGANY seems to always get high ratings. Look for yourself... Odd, isn't it?

Mahogany is a widely used wood that has good charictoristics. Not all Mahogany guitars are going to get good marks. You are seeing some that are getting good marks(and be real, that is guitar magazine rating guitars that are made by or sold by their advertisers and supporters). Mahogany is a good wood to work with, but I would draw little more than that from these ratings.

The one thing I find pretty interesting about your post(which seems pretty common). Is the lack of details on the amplifier, cabnet, settings, effects, electronics used at the guitar, strings, hardware, etc... Although you did mention the PU's used. The wood you have used for the body is way down the list of overall factors in your sound. I would think that you would set up the description with some of these more significant parts of the system to help evaluate your findings.

Peace,Rich

[olddog]

Hi. I just completed a "Strat G". I was kind of wondering what a mohogany strat would sound like, and I had a mohogany sg body here, so I mated the sg body with a bolt on mohgany neck, a pre-wired sss strat pickguard, and a strat hardtail bridge. When I fired it up, my first impression was " It's a Strat." My brother played it, and he's a strat man, and he claims he can hear the difference from an alder bodied, maple neck strat, but I can't. I sure that's more a testimony about my tin ear, but I was amazed at how little the wood mattered.

[yoyofargo]

...I was amazed at how little the wood mattered.

I've noticed the same thing with strats, or any other guitar that has pickups mounted to a pickgard. The pickgard basically acts as a proxy for the vibrations of the wood. It dampens them, making the tone different. When you pick that low E string (or any string), the whole guitar vibrates. When your pickup is mounted on a piece of acrylic the vibrations are going to be dampened.

Alright, you pluck a string. From there, the hard vibrations travel:

• Through the Bridge
  • Through the Body
    • Through the Pickgaurd
      • Through the mounting screws
        • To the Pickups
          
          
          
          
          
        • Through the Nut
          • Through the Neck
            • Through the Body
              • Through Pickgaurd
                • Through the mounting screws
                  • To the pickups
                    

                  Of course, this is simplified, but it's just to show an example of how vibrations travel within a guitar. This is NOT how the pickups work, they work by creating a current via metal moving within a magnetic feild.

                  At each step, the vibrations are dampened and frequencies altered. At the end of the chain, your pickups are vibrating differently than you strings, but you can't say that they aren't vibrating at all. It's this vibration creates the differences in tone between one guitar to another.

                  The movement of the strings in relation to the magnetic feild is changed when the pickup is vibrating along with the strings.

                  This is where wood species becomes a factor. Each wood species and combination will alter that vibration differently. Though the species and shape of the wood is a factor, it is not the only thing that models your output. Each piece is going to act differently. Again, if you toss on a sheet of acrylic as a proxy for your pickups, it's going to dampen the vibration of the pickups. It's a personal opinion if you like the tone or not, which is why alot of people like playing strats.

                  I really hope I made that theory clear enough. If I didn't, I'll work on a visual aid. :/ In the end, it's all about if you enjoy playing your guitar. Go ahead, pick up your cheap little squire, model that tone through a digital device... All of this doesn't matter if you're doing what you love.

                  -Matthew Thoemke

Edited May 9, 2007 by yoyofargo

[J_48_Johnson]

Body shape and wood type do make a difference in the voice of a solid body guitar....

http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/guitars/electric.html

http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/guitars/index.html

http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/guitars/index.html

[fryovanni]

yoyofargo- Your theory makes sense, and seems resonable as part of how it would effect the way the guitars sound would be altered. I would look at the direct effect on the strings themselves also. The way the body, neck and anchors are going to modify how a string vibrates will have a much more significant effect.(at least to my way of thinking).

J_48_Johnson- I agree with you 100% that shape(as it relates to stiffness and density and mechanical charictoristics) and wood(effecting the performance of the shape). I like that site you linked to. Remember those simulations are based on computer models that have been exagerated, and also that they are directed at specific frequencies. That makes them overexagerated simplified(you will almost never have a single frequency driven into a guitars system in quite that fasion). I say that to keep perspective on the info. It is cool though to be able to see the modes in a graphic like that to get you thinking. Don't lose sight of strings in looking at how a body moves though. Because strings are what you are looking to effect(for the most part) with all the movement. You can do things to the strings directly that will have a much more drastic and tangable effect on sound as opposed to indirectly(I am on a strings are overlooked kick ) .

The models like that for acoustic soundboards fascinated me, but are only good to get a general idea of some of the major modes of movement. Most of the people that are really into modeling(even very advanced) will tell you they just don't capture all the variables well enough to make the info reliable.

Peace,Rich

Edited May 9, 2007 by fryovanni

[olddog]

Aren't most pickups mounted on springs?

[mojotron]

Has anyone tried different pickguard materials - like single ply vs. 3-ply (the 50's era strats has 1-ply pickguards)?

Also, anyone tried a rosewood or spruce pickguard?

That's a interesting thing to note about the pickgaurd's roll in the sound.... makes a lot of sense to me. I have an old Charvel from the '80's with a swiming pool basswood body - and it's amazing how different that guitar's sound is from my Ibanez RGs with basswood and mahagany bodies (where they have pickup rings instead of a pickguard). There is a tremendous 'strat-ness' that you can hear with the Charvel - the sound is much closer to my Warmoth Swamp Ash strat than any other basswood/maple-neck guitar I have, although I would have thought originally that it would have been the other way around.

[yoyofargo]

...I am on a strings are overlooked kick...

Yeah, I should have expanded the theory when I posted it. I was going to explain overtones, how the tension created-and-released when a string is picked causes the wood to flex, thus causing the wood's tension upon the string to effect the tone... etc etc... It would be tough to explain in text.

That's why I'm making a video about my thoeries in Blender. I'll post it in a couple days when it's finished.

If there are other reasonable theorys out there, that make sense, I'll be happy to add them to the video.

Thanks,

yoyofargo

[Stolysmaster]

I've noticed the same thing with strats, or any other guitar that has pickups mounted to a pickgard. The pickgard basically acts as a proxy for the vibrations of the wood. It dampens them, making the tone different. When you pick that low E string (or any string), the whole guitar vibrates. When your pickup is mounted on a piece of acrylic the vibrations are going to be dampened.

First off, I don't think I understand your use of the word "proxy" in your post (twice). A proxy is a person, or object, that is a "stand in" or substitute for something else; meant to act in place of him/her/it. I'm not sure if that is actually what you meant to say, but maybe so.

More importantly, if your theory (actually a hypothesis) is that a guitar with pickups mounted to a pickguard sounds significantly different than one with pickups not mounted to a pickguard, all other things being equal, I think I would disagree based on my personal experience. With my Gibson '67 Reissue Flying V played unamplified, I can tell no difference at all between when it has it's pickguard attached and when it does not. And I cannot tell very much difference between a Gibson '76 Reissue Explorer and a Gibson '67 Reissue Flying V played through the same amp. The Flying V has the pickups mounted to a pickguard, and the Explorer soes not. They have the exact same pickups, hardware, and wood used. Yes, there are some subtle differences, but no more than you might hear from any two identical Strats you would find in a guitar store.

I simply have not HEARD any significant difference, all other things being equal, in how pickups are mounted in a guitar. A pickup, being an electronic device, really does not care too much if it is vibrating minutely in concert with the strings as a result of how it is mounted. Any movement (vibration), that the pickup is experiencing indirectly from the strings is so insignificant compared to what it is actually picking up from a magnetic/electrical standpoint, that it cannot be a large factor in tone.

But this, of course, is just one guy's opinion. I've been laughed at by some when I claim that I can hear the difference in six inches of pickup wire that has just a few picoferrads (sp?) less capacitance than another wire! Maybe a lot of what we think we hear is just our imagination, or how tired we are at the time vs. when our ears are fresh. I know that can make a big difference when recording!

[yoyofargo]

First off, I don't think I understand your use of the word "proxy" in your post (twice). A proxy is a person, or object, that is a "stand in" or substitute for something else; meant to act in place of him/her/it. I'm not sure if that is actually what you meant to say, but maybe so.

If you're an e-nerd, you know that a "proxy" is something, as in software or hardware, that blocks your IP address. While keeping that in mind, I also draw from it's denotative meaning. I use the word as connotation whenever information from a first object of person (or dampened in this case) and then falsely represented by a second person or object to a third person or object. Now apply that to the situation in this case, body to pickgaurd, pickgard to mounting screws then pickups.

Anyways, this is a forum. It's on the internet. Oh god what are we going to do? Learn to accept small amounts of connotation and that words have multiple denotative meanings or call the grammar police.

A pickup, being an electronic device, really does not care too much if it is vibrating minutely in concert with the strings as a result of how it is mounted. Any movement (vibration), that the pickup is experiencing indirectly from the strings is so insignificant compared to what it is actually picking up from a magnetic/electrical standpoint, that it cannot be a large factor in tone.

Alright then, because it has a mind and it can clearly make a thought and say to itself "Oh, I don't care" ... imagine this.

A pickup is vibrating exactly in harmony with a string. It follows it's movement exactly. How the heck is it going to create a tone? Now, this is an exaggeration. But in practicality, try vibrating a pickup in front of oh, let's just say an iron nail... it's going to create a current. Don't forget your ground. Depending on the speed of the vibration, it will create a signal that is perceivable.

The magnets within the pickup create an electromagnetic field. When the pickup is moved, so is the field. I'd go deeper, but I think you're intelligent enough to figure out this 101 stuff.

Now the real problem I made in the post was to say that a pickgaurd is going to make a huge difference. I didn't actually intend on creating this premise that "Oh pickgaurd suck, they kill your tone." Why? They don't. They add character.

Another problem with measuring tone difference between guitars is your amp and accessories. First, turn the tone pots all the way down. If you love to play with distortion, quit worrying about hearing a tone difference. Most of this tone stuff is for peeps who play clean into a tube amp, and only model their tone to compensate for 60-cycle.

[MiKro]

Well POOH!! I guess then that the cardboard body I planned won't be worth a crap? It's a wood product right? and I was so looking forward to having that cool looking COW pattern from the computer boxes!!!

LOL:)

MK

Edited May 10, 2007 by MiKro

[jmrentis]

This question is something that I have seen some discussion on before, but I find it a relevant factor for the initial post and responses. As you were saying Rich, the woods can compliment each other in certain ways. The question I wanted to throw out there was what effect does a two piece body(meaning top and bottom, not like bookmatched) have on the sound? In other words what does that giant glue joint do for sound, if anything thing at all? Also, if the glue has minimal negative effect could three and four piece bodies be made in attempts to find new variations of sound qualities. Obviously, as stated this area has little to do with the outcome of sound compared to the multitude of other factors, but lets say a sound perfectionist duplicated all other factors perfectly(yeah right!), what difference would be heard in a one piece mahogany body and a two piece mahogany body (again top and bottom, equally cut)?

Edited May 10, 2007 by jmrentis

[yoyofargo]

Well POOH!! I guess then that the cardboard body I planned won't be worth a crap? It's a wood product right? and I was so looking forward to having that cool looking COW pattern from the computer boxes!!!

LOL:)

MK

Hehe, that's why I used the word "Most." I seriously got to hear a sample of that when it's finished.

Let me just toss out an analogy. "Asking why vibrating pickups, wood species, and strings effect the sound of your guitar is like asking why the walls of the building you happen to be in effect the sound of your voice." Alright, maybe it's a bad one... but heck...

Vid's getting there btw.

[jnewman]

While it is within the realm of possibility that your pickups could vibrate enough to affect your sound, that would be a very low-order effect compared to how your string type and scale length affect string vibration and compared to the effect of the frequency-variable damping for the complex anchors at each end of the string on the vibration of the string itself (differences in this damping effect are due to differences in the wood, other materials, and construction methods). I'm in agreement with fryovanni here.

Edited May 10, 2007 by jnewman

[Stolysmaster]

While it is within the realm of possibility that your pickups could vibrate enough to affect your sound, that would be a very low-order effect compared to how your string type and scale length affect string vibration and compared to the effect of the frequency-variable damping for the complex anchors at each end of the string on the vibration of the string itself (differences in this damping effect are due to differences in the wood, other materials, and construction methods). I'm in agreement with fryovanni here.

This is basically what I was trying to say as well. Many more things affect the sound in a more significant way than whether or not your pickups are mounted to a pickguard. As I said in my earlier post, go listen to the difference between an Explorer and a Flying V of fairly recent vintage...not very much difference; although one has the pickups mounted to the pickguard and one does not!

As for the use of the word "proxy", I apologize for not being an "enerd".