jason f Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 (edited) First off hello everyone I've just started my second acoustic guitar and after getting what looked like packing crate material from the suppliers for the bracing i thought i would use some stock from my joinery workshop . I've read that the back bracing can be the same material as the back ( in this case Wenge) But i cant find any info other than spruce for the sound board bracing . I have some ; Douglas Fir Southern yellow pine Parana pine Redwood and whitewood aswell as hardwoods like meranti . I'd also like to make the soundboard out of Douglas Fir . Are any of these timbers any good for bracing and soundboard ? Edited July 2, 2007 by jason f Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Sorbera Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 Obviously in bracing your looking for good stiffness and strength to weight ratio. Personally I wouldn't use wenge, but I'm not experienced enough to tell you that it wont work good (I honestly don't know). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason f Posted July 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 (edited) Yes i agree wenge wouldn't make good bracing now i think about it . What about Douglas Fir for all the bracing ? I made my first guitar out of wenge with spruce bracing and a spruce soundboard and it has a real nice very loud sound to it . Edited July 2, 2007 by jason f Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 When you say the bracing material looked like packing crate material, does that it is flawed or not quartersawn? Split spruce bracing stock does not have to be pretty when it is raw to be great stock. Doug Fir has the potential to be good bracing stock. You need to be careful though because you will find a range of stiffness in Doug Fir(I know it is supposed to be stiffer and heavier than Sitka, and can be, but in many cases I find it to not be as stiff and heavy). So if you know your wood and can get good stiff DF it is fine. Honestly though, Sitka bracewood is dirt cheap(maybe $5? for a whole guitar). I would not choose a wood that has a lower stiffness to weight ratio just because you want to grab something setting in your shop(you just put too much work into a guitar to do that). Some woods that can be very good options; Adirondack Spruce, Sitka Spruce, Lutz Spruce, Europeon Spruces, Douglas Fir, Port Orford Cedar, Western Red Cedar and so on. You want light and stiff. Most hardwoods are stiff but heavy relative to that stiffness. Of course Sitka is very easy to find and inexpensive. Allen sells @$10bd.ft.-Allen, Stewmac sells for $5.31-stewmac, Ebayer $10 for two big pieces of bracewood-Guitarwood , another ebayer $6 for two big pieces of bracewood-burl quilt, LMI has all sorts of bracewood-LMI, Shane has amazing tonewood and very reasonable prices-High Mountain Tonewood, Colonial has Sitka for $4.99-Colonial Anyhow, you can take a look around on some of those sights. They have more information about commonly used bracewood. Peace and good luck! Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason f Posted July 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 I got sent two blocks of wood that i would normally throw on the fire , i paid £20 for them , what's that $40? and one of them had woodworm flight holes . As they where blocks i could quater saw them myself for the bracing . They wouldn't plane to a nice finish ( they furred up and had to be sanded smooth ) I don't think it was Spruce but thats what i ordered . I do have some western red cedar that is very light , i was suprised when i picked it up . Maybe that will be better for the bracing as the Wenge is very heavy . It's not a case of looking around the workshop for anything i can use to save a few quid it's more that i have so much left over stock from my carpentry and joinery business that it kills me to pay £20 for 4p worth of timber . Spruce maybe easy to find in the states but over here in the UK it's like rocking horse dodo . At least it is to my suppliers . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 Shoot your over there and I am here. Mattia posted a handy list of suppliers for all the members over in Europe-Topic with suppliers I have heard him speak highly of Rivolta-Rivolta-Bracing Sorry to hear you recieved poor quality wood. From my experience with Western Red Cedar. I find it very light but not close to Sitka in terms of stiffness. If you do choose to use it remember your dimensions will need to grow to get the same strength(weight will probably wind up just slightly higher overall, but close if it is good stiff WRC). Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason f Posted July 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 Thanks for the links . The supplier i got the timber from is on that list but i did explain it was my first build and to be honest i would have sent me the bad stock aswell . I'm not sure i know enough about guitar building to change from the plan i am using yet and didn't think about the timber having to change sizes . Hmmmm more to sleep on but it's great fun making them . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 (edited) I got sent two blocks of wood that i would normally throw on the fire , i paid £20 for them , what's that $40? and one of them had woodworm flight holes . As they where blocks i could quater saw them myself for the bracing . They wouldn't plane to a nice finish ( they furred up and had to be sanded smooth ) I don't think it was Spruce but thats what i ordered . if you ordered spruce, then you got spruce. plane the wood, and the beauty shall be revealed. lol can you post a picture of the wood? Edited July 3, 2007 by Hector Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason f Posted July 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 I spose it does look like Spruce but it also looks like alot of white wood i have in the workshop . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Sorbera Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Except for the hole that looks fine to me. How well quartersawn is it? If you look at the end grain is the grain running strait up and down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason f Posted July 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Except for the hole that looks fine to me. How well quartersawn is it? If you look at the end grain is the grain running strait up and down? It's running a little out but not too bad . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 It's running a little out but not too bad . split that and make your braces. everything will be just fine. and that is spruce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason f Posted July 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Oooops too late , ive started making them from Doug Fir . Also the soundboard from Doug Fir and the back and sides from Wenge . The first guitar is spruce braced and sounding good so it's play time on this one . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Who's that from, if you don't mind my asking? Both David Dyke and Touchstone carry good quality woods at decent prices. If you've got the money for an up-front investment, there's little better than buying a bunch of wood from Madinter or Maderas Barber in spain (Cedar tops, back/sides, fingerboards, bracewood, not so much spruce tops). Pay by the kilo, dirt cheap, and you can afford to be picky and throw out the cheap stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason f Posted July 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 I'd rather not say who it's from as i am new to this guitar building game and getting quite into it . ( I may need to use them again ) As a joiner the quality of the timber is very bad but i am used to working with flat sawn timber that needs to have a nice finish . When i think about it maybe it's like building a roof out of notty pine because i like the look of it but structualy it's not a very good idea . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 I'd rather not say who it's from as i am new to this guitar building game and getting quite into it . ( I may need to use them again ) As a joiner the quality of the timber is very bad but i am used to working with flat sawn timber that needs to have a nice finish . When i think about it maybe it's like building a roof out of notty pine because i like the look of it but structualy it's not a very good idea . I think that being new to guitar building you might not be aware that most bracing material is in fact leftover material that was not good enough, or not big enough for tops. that's why we often find knots, and runout in some pieces. braces are small, so even if the piece you got is not quartered, you can split it and then you'll have a perfect piece. well quartered and without runout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 I'd rather not say who it's from as i am new to this guitar building game and getting quite into it . ( I may need to use them again ) As a joiner the quality of the timber is very bad but i am used to working with flat sawn timber that needs to have a nice finish . When i think about it maybe it's like building a roof out of notty pine because i like the look of it but structualy it's not a very good idea . I think that being new to guitar building you might not be aware that most bracing material is in fact leftover material that was not good enough, or not big enough for tops. that's why we often find knots, and runout in some pieces. braces are small, so even if the piece you got is not quartered, you can split it and then you'll have a perfect piece. well quartered and without runout. You are spot on with your comments on size. However I disagree that you should expect to pay for bracing stock that is not quartered(or split) properly, and have structural defects. At least you should not be charged for that portion of the stock, and the remaining material should still yeild proper usable wood. Sitka bracing stock sells for about $10 bd. ft. which is a premium over clear Sitka lumber @$7.00 bd. ft. You darn well better get bracing stock that is select and usable whe you pay that kind of premium. You should never have to accept junk or improper tonewood. Even when you buy a sitka soundboard(about 1/2 bd. ft max pre-sawing) that is a low grade for $12. You are paying $24 bd. ft for what would be $7 in clear lumber form. That is a hell of a premium. A master grade Sitka soundboard(say $75) is more like $150 bd. ft(that is an extreamly high premium), and you better recieve the ABSOLUTELY BEST OF THE BEST in all aspects. I am not even going to get into soundboards that run $200 and up(that is getting into the higher than Brazilian Rosewood range, which is crazy to me also). Don't ever let a wood dealer slide if they don't sell you proper wood for acoustic guitars(as described and suitable for the purpose). What is the difference between a $300 Spruce bolt, and low grade firewood? A knot. I would qualify what I am saying by adding. Some of the cost associated with cut wood(sawing and surfacing). However you will have to evaluate the service you are getting. Many dealers cut, but do not surface sand(this is only worth a few dollars) depending on the quality of cutting. Well prepaired and surfaced sets is worth more. If you buy "high" or "master" grade tonewood that is sawn ruff and not surfaced(at least well enough to see the wood clearly,and is relatively close to dimension* say .170" to maybe .140"). Then they have not confirmed the high grade visually, and can easily show flaws when surfaced properly. I could care less how "experienced" the dealer is(they can not confirm what they can not see, they are just taking an edjucated guess). I Rant, and Babble. Good luck fellas , and stick up for yourself(get what you pay for). There are a lot of "tonewood" dealers that are just trying to mark up lumber and may or may not know what they are doing(some are really great). If you are a beginner, and someone sold you $80 worth of bracewood(that should be enough for your next 15 guitars). That was poor support(IMO) on their part(they should be looking out for your interest as you are counting on their knowledge to assist you in selection). Not naming the company is fine, but get in touch with them and let them know if you are not happy. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 At least you should not be charged for that portion of the stock, and the remaining material should still yeild proper usable wood. that's it. I never bought premium or master grade stuff. hell, I pay less than 6 dollars a piece for my bracing wood (german spruce), and they come in various dimensions. sometimes some big pieces. I often resaw it for using as a mandolin, or uke top. I always get waay more than I paid for. so I got nothing bad to say about my supplier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToneMonkey Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Does anyone use carbon fibre for bracing? I've got a load at home (without the resin at the minute). Just curious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason f Posted July 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Seems you where right , i've just ordered a load more parts and mentioned i wasn't happy with the bracing stock . It seems there was a mix up and they are sending me out some more free of charge . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Does anyone use carbon fibre for bracing? I've got a load at home (without the resin at the minute). Just curious! Straight up? No. Laminated (0.1 or .2"thick) in the X-braces? On my next two instruments.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToneMonkey Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 Mattia - You slightly lost me with that last post. Read it a couple of times but couldn't figure it out. You thinking of using it for you next project or are you taking the proverbial Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 I have the materials, and I will be laminating up some CF sheet reinforced X-brace materials for my next two builds. Not 'straight up' solid CF, but some CF in the bracing mix to go with the CF I already put in all my necks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegarehanman Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 Mattia, .1" and .2" of carbon fiber seems overkill. I'd say go with 1/64", maybe 1/32" max. Also, are you using dry mat and resin or buying the already cured composite? If you're buying mat and wetting it out yourself, you should look for unidirectional mat, anything else is a waste in this case. peace, russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 Oops, I mean, of course, .010" and .020". Bit thicker than paper, thinner than your average veneer slice. I got my material from John and Rebecca Watts at Los Alamos Composites (Luthiersforum.com sponsors), very reasonable prices on CF rods and sheet stock, I though. Stuff's unidirectional sheet layup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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