Free Wood Score

[chennik]

While I was home on R&R, I ended up talking to a friend of mine who has a tree trimming business, and I was able to get a some wood off of him for free. Apparently, there isnt much of a market for him to sell lumber from the trees he cuts down, and while the limbs get chipped for mulch, the logs either get split into firewood or he pays to dump them. The day I visited him, he had cut down a silver maple, and the next day he cut down an ash tree (northern ash, not the magical swamp ash). He set aside the ash log on his lot for me, and he knows a guy with a minimill who will cut it up however I want for about $50-100.

That brings me to my question. This log is about 30" diameter and about 10' long. There is clearly alot of lumber in there, and I'd like to make the most of it. I'm not really sure what to ask for when I get it cut up. I'm planning on more flatsawn orientation (since quartersawn looks pretty boring on ash) and probably looking at 2" stock at least (maybe 3") so that it's thick enough for guitar bodies. Ideally, I'd like to get it sawn wide enough that I can make one piece bodies from it. I know once its cut I need to seal the ends and dry it, and I'll be waiting years to use it (or paying to get it kiln dried). The thing is, What I dont use for guitar building (which will inevitably be alot) I'd like to have available to build furniture with, which is generally more the realm of 1" stock. Anyhow, I'd like to know if anyone has any thoughts on what the would be best way for me to get this log sawn up. Anyone have any experience going from tree to finished product?

This friend of mine told me he'd set aside pretty much anything I was looking for in the way of wood that he cuts down(provided he has the space on his storage lot). I told him if I can find the use for it, I'll buy them off him. He cuts down alot of:

cottonwood(pretty lousy from what I understand)

silver maple (not good for necks, but maybe good for bodies? or furniture)

hackberry (not sure about this one, never heard of it used)

he also occasionally/rarely comes across:

black walnut (I got a few nice slabs of that from him too, its green though)

sycamore (which looks cool quartersawn, not sure of its tonal properties, I dont think i've ever seen it used for anything)

hickory (seen it in furniture, never guitars)

locust(seen it in furniture, never guitars)

hard maple (I already told him to set any of those aside)

Anyone think any of those are worth me asking him to set aside a log of? I told him definitely on hard maple and I'm strongly contemplating asking him to do it with walnut. I'm not really sure about the tonal properties of the others, and if they'd be worth setting aside or not. I'm thinking the silver maple might not be bad to try for a body since i hear it stains well and isnt too heavy. If any of you have any ideas or thoughts, let me know.

I figure the extremely large amounts of wood I dont use for guitars I can use for furniture or trade away, and who knows, I might even find him a market for this stuff he pays to dump.

You can also spare me the warnings about getting in over my head and going too far and ending up with more wood than I'll use in a lifetime... I already forsee that...

[Prostheta]

Beware of any tacks, nail or wire that might be embedded in the wood....the guy at the minimill will probably watch out for this anyway, but you won't want your saw, planer or router catching a random nail head or tack point!

Sounds like you could stash lots of this wood and perhaps sell it on at reasonable cost to PGers ;-D

[Batfink]

sycamore (which looks cool quartersawn, not sure of its tonal properties, I dont think i've ever seen it used for anything)

I use it for bodies (GOTM last September for example) and have on occassion used it for necks. I can't think that Sycamore over there would be any different from Sycamore over here but perhaps someone like Rich (Fryovanni) can set the record straight.

Jem

[Mattia]

OK, you're dead wrong: Sycamore in the US is a Platanus species, a plane tree, like London Plane or 'Lacewood' (one of the many) in the UK. UK Sycamore is Acer Pseudoplatanus (ie, maple, but the tree 'looks like a plane tree'). Relatively soft, pretty figure on the quarter, usable for tops and bodies, I would think. Some even use it for acoustic back/sides.

Other woods: check the MIMF library, I seem to recall someone with Hackberry bodies that had a really weird, funky, but decidedly cool vibe to them. Very unique wood, but I can't remeber the details.

If you just want bodies, max, have things sliced up (plain flatsawing, through the log) at 2" with a bit of a margin, then sticker and weight and wait. Why bother with 3" unless you plan on building anything that requires something that thick? I'd also quite seriously consider quartersawn (I may be strange, but I quite like quartersawn Ash, perhaps precisely because you rarely ever see/find any). You loose/waste more wood, but so what?

All maples, even silver and 'bigleaf' soft maple, should be plenty strong for necks. Maybe not as strong as rock maple, but that doesn't mean its unsuitable. Certainly suitable for bodies, neck laminations, tops, and just general, y'know, stuff. Quarter it wherever possible, and 2" is good, because quartered maple is a commodity that's rarely found at your local lumber yard.

Mostly, remember it's all grean, and will take a long time to dry out. Buy a moisture meter as well, worthwhile investment if you're going to be dealing with unseasoned wood.

[fryovanni]

Mattia is right as always. What is called Sycamore in the US is not the same as Sycamore in the UK.

As far as what to cut and dry. It depends a lot on how much space you have for drying, how much time you have to invest, and money you have to invest, and of course your need. If you plan to sell the wood you know what wood prices are at retail levels in your area. You need to bear in mind grading though when you figure potential values. Most would look at the best select grades of kiln dried surfaced lumber and think that is the value of that type of wood. Thta is of course not the case. If you simply have the wood milled and leave it to dry. You should figure the tree will be ruff seconds. Some of the wood will be clean and have clear faces, and you can decide on whether you want to invest further into surfacing and cleaning that wood up to maybe 2S2 clears(which are worth a bit more). You can look around on your local Craigs list and you will see people sell wood like this(generally at a discounted price). You will not get rich processing a few logs, and it will take a lot of time and space. The value of logs is generally not much unless the wood is very desirable. Most of the value in lumber is in the processing, and selection(offset by losses). If a person really wanted a large volume of wood for making furnaature, instruments, turning and such. It can be a nice way to control the cuts and select your logs, and ensure the drying is done properly. If your goal is to simply make a few guitars. Save yourself the headaches and just hand select the exact pieces you want at retail prices(most logs will yeild only a small amount if any of just what you want, if that makes sense). I am a huge fan of guys who mill locally and support them every chance I get. You can usually get a better price, and they need the money to keep going(seek them oout guys and give them your support ).

Peace,Rich

[Batfink]

Rich, this is why i called out for your verification oh great timber guru.

Couldn't have someone along the way standardised the names for crying out loud - confusing or what

Jem

[Mattia]

Rich, this is why i called out for your verification oh great timber guru.

Couldn't have someone along the way standardised the names for crying out loud - confusing or what

Jem

Sure. That's what proper latin names are for. Prevents all sorts of confusion ;P

Also, I think processing wood that would otherwise get burned or chipped into lumber is a noble cause in and of itself, and adds a little bit of extra fun. Add the fact that some woods (Walnut in particular of the woods listed above) are much, much more interesting looking when air dried instead of the normal commercial steaming - which evens out all the colours, makes it all more uniform, and consequently a whole lot less interesting.

Edited August 14, 2007 by Mattia

[Batfink]

my fault - thirty years ago when i was still at school i felt i was wasting enough of my life on alcohol and T.H.C not to waste 3 years doing latin

[orgmorg]

On the more obscure species:

Hackberry ( celtis occidentalis ) has open grain like ash, but much whiter. It is very prone to blue/grey staining while drying. This can be bad or good depending on your taste. personally I like it. Tends to warp and twist a bit. Spalts very nicely

Cottonwood (populus deltoides)usually warps and twists a lot, but can be rather pretty if you find a piece that doesn't. Fine grained and very plain looking with grey/brown streaks. It is a true poplar, and not to be confused with yellow (tulip) poplar, which is the wood most commonly called poplar, though it is not one.

Hickory ( carya species ) Hard and tough as nails. Quite stable, as well. Sapwood is pale pink/tan with darker, reddish heartwood. Something I have been interewsted in using for a neck. Most commonly used for tool handles, ( hammers, etc. )

Sycamore (platanus occidentalis) is another one that tends to twist and warp when drying, but as you said, very pretty quartersawn, like lacewood, but with smaller ray fleck. Gets nice color and spalts well.

Locust- which one? Honeylocust ( gledetsia triacanthos ) is the one with the insane thorns has open grain and deep pink/orange color, very pretty. Very hard. Black or yellow locust (robinia pseudoacacia) is similar, but even harder and heavier. Darker color, more yellow/green. Rings out beautifully when tapped. I have a friend who has used it for xylophone keys with fabulous results. Both have a deep luster to the wood, Both woods dry very easily with very little warping/twisting, but tend to have ring shake. Definitely get some of either if you can.

Edited August 15, 2007 by orgmorg

[chennik]

Thanks for all of the input on this guys, I appreciate it.

I spent some time talking to the woodworker types in my unit too about all of this, I may have a few of them that are interested in going in on a few logs worth of wood for some various projects we all want to do when we get back. One of the guys has done some work with silver maples before and says that with the right stain, you can make a rather nice faux cherry look to a piece of furniture. I'd like to give this stuff a shot as a body wood, but considering that I'd like to do some furniture building (and cherry is probably my favorite look for furniture) I'm going to ask for a log of that too.

Actually, with some of those guys, we may just split the cost if we can get our hands on walnut, hickory or locust, since those are pretty popular for furniture, and I'll be able to get more than enough for a few guitars.

As far as hackberry goes, I found this http://www.apolloguitars.ca/K100618.html which I have to say looks like a pretty cool grain. I may try and get my hands on some of that too, because it would make a nice trans finish on a guitar, and I like the look for furniture too.

I already have an amazing piece of spalted quartersawn sycamore that I picked up on site in a sawmill about a year ago that I can probably get a few tops out of, but in retrospect, I may be better off just looking for the occasional "best piece" of that rather than a whole board, since it seems like a waste to use it for anything other than tops/veneers. (I have to post a pic of that spalted sycamore on here sooner or later, I just dont have the ability right now)

Cottonwood is probably one I'm going to stay away from, I heard its mostly used for making pallets, and it's a pain to work to a finish grade. I didn't know it is a poplar, but given that it is, I'll probably stay away from it, because I've never really liked to look or the tone of the woods along those lines (Poplar, basswood, other varieties of very soft, plain grain hardwoods)

Ironically, while my guitar building dreams got me into this mess, I think i'm going to come out of it building alot of furniture too. I've wanted to do furniture building, but the high prices and volume of wood have kept me shying away from it, until I realized I can get 200 board feet logs turned into lumber for next to nothing thanks to the conditions in the local economy.

I'm going to have my hands full when I get back.

[ihocky2]

Where do you search to find someone local with a portable mill? I have 2 black walnuts that I am cutting down and one of them is about 25' and straight on the trunk, so I will get a lot from it. We are also doing some selective cutting at my in-laws farm and there is a lot of cherry. I have to look at exactly what species they are, but I keep getting told all of the cherry is black cherry, but that is not certain. There is also some sugar maple and some northern white ash. I want to get these cut into 8/4 boards where I can, but can't move that much lumber to a mill and they hit $250 an hour to mill and they said it will be about an hour per tree. Plus the hassle of finding something to haul all of that in since a pickup won't handle it. I have the barn on the farm to store it in to dry for a few years, so storage is not an issue at all.

[chennik]

ihocky2,

I found the guy thats going to cut this stuff up only because i happen to be friends with a tree trimmer, and he happened to know a retired guy who has a minimill and cuts part time as a hobby. Where I'm at (northern Kansas) there's not much demand because there's not much population really... but alot of it is just luck. When I was leaving last week to come off R&R I bought a Fine Woodworking magazine in the airport, and it has an article on Mini-Mills this month, and the guy who wrote it is from near Philadelphia (my hometown, and not too far from where you live according to your location). There was a portable mill that a guy in South Jersey had, plus there were two others featured, one in Perkiomenville (probably about 45 min from you) and then one in Worcester (about an hour's drive). I dont remeber the names of the places, but I'll see if I can dig up the article and let you know, or you might be able to find out from the magazines website. One of the tips they suggested was getting in with the local tree trimmers, developers, etc... Folks who would have this stuff cut down and have to get rid of logs, since they usually know all of the outlets. Thats how I found the guy who will cut this stuff up for me. An option for getting the tree's cut up and moved would be to have the landscaper transport them to the large mill as part of a package deal (Since he has to take it someplace to get rid of it) or to have a portable mill come to you. If you get the logs delivered to a large mill, you can probably rent uhaul truck or something to go pick it up later on when it's finished, since the mill probably isnt going to be just waiting for you. They may give you a better price if you can afford to wait and have them cut it at their convenience, since they can use that to fill what would otherwise be idle time for their machinery. Like all businesses, the mills have busy times and slow times, and they like to keep the busy times from getting too busy (paying overtime, etc) and like to fill the slow times (keep from sending guys home early, or laying them off in slow months). I hope that helps. I'll see if I can dig up that article for you.

[orgmorg]

Where do you search to find someone local with a portable mill?

Woodmizer ( sawmill manufacturer ) has a sawmill locator service. You can call them at 1 800 553 0182.

Other manufacturers may do the same, try looking up timberking , baker , or Peterson

$250 an hour to mill and they said it will be about an hour per tree

$250/hr sounds like a big commercial sawmill. Portable sawyers typically charge between 20 and 35 cents per board foot which translates to around $30-$60/hr Many variables in there, though.

I keep getting told all of the cherry is black cherry, but that is not certain

If it is larger than an orchard or ornamental tree, it is black cherry (Prunus serotina). That's really the only species of cherry that occurs naturally in the states of any size to produce marketable timber.