Custom Finishing Options

[MR marinara sauce]

I am looking into an endorsement with a guitar company and they quoted me on a custom shop guitar at $1400. $400 of this is the paint job. The paint job is just black with blood spatter. I believe they commision custom finishes out, and $400 seems a little steep for a spatter finish! So, I think i am going to order the uitar to be finished in black alone, and commision it out somewhere for a few buck less. and i am entirely un-expierenced with finishing guitars and dont want to expirament on a custom shop! Any sugestions? Thanks!

[aidlook]

I'd just get it unfinished then and commision the complete finish.

[Mattia]

Uh, not to disillusion you or anything, but a professionally done guitar finish - even just a 'boring' clearcoat on, say, an acoustic guitar, done by most of the big finish guys, will run between 300 and 400 dollars. Very easily. You also want the 'blood spatters' on the basecoat, under the buffed clearcoats.

Also, seriously, $1400 is not a lot of cash for a good guitar.

[six_stringer]

Paint jobs are not cheap to be sure. It seems that the price of a solid color these days (black or white etc.) can range from $195 to $275 or more for bolt on type bodies. The price's go up even more for neck through's and set neck types if they even do them at all. If you want custom colors or "blood spatter" that just raises the prices even more.

I got these price's from four different internet sites of companies in the U.S. However, I don't have any experience with any of these painter's or any others to attest to the quality of their work.

Good Luck,

Jeff

[syxxstring]

Remember what goes into a custom finish:

Primer

Sealer

Paint

Clear

Plus the prep work, and post finish work. $400 is reasonable for this kind of work unless you can find a custom painter that will work for next to nothing, the painter will have at least a few hours into it. I've taken airbrush classes from a guy that does a lot of Jackson's namm guitars and such, I doubt you'd get the finish that cheap going directly too him.

[JJ Donohue]

I use a guy in Indiana for finishing my electric guitars. He is a former finisher of custom cars whose work is better than anything I've ever seen.

He uses Catalyzed Polyester which requires far less curing time than Nitro or polyurethane. It is the hardest, most scratch resistant finish I have seen yet. I get my guitars back within 2 weeks...fully cured and ready to rock. Let me know if you're interested in his contact information.

[syxxstring]

Catalyzed polyester? Do you have any product names?

HOK and other automotive uro's have polyesters involved in some of their products. One factory rep told me the poly in polyurethane is polyesther.

[JJ Donohue]

Catalyzed polyester? Do you have any product names?

HOK and other automotive uro's have polyesters involved in some of their products. One factory rep told me the poly in polyurethane is polyesther.

I only know enough about organic chemistry to be dangerous. But I do know that polyurethane and polyester are two very different polymers with very different properties. Moreover, I have seen guitars finished with both PU & PE side by side and there are noticable differences. With the PU, the finish remains soft for weeks before it's fully cured...PE is cured in days...if UV is used, it cures fully in hours if not minutes (Taylor Guitars). The PE was also noticeably thinner than the PU...a real benefit for acoustic guitars. I also know that the PE is actually harder and more scratch resistant than PU. I am not aware of the name of the product nor who the manufacturer is. Email or PM me if you want the contact info for the guy who does my electrics. Just remember, he's in the business of finishing guitars and the info you seek may be proprietary.

I am very fussy about the feel of a neck in particular. I hate the feel of Nitro on necks...they can take many months before they lose that tacky feel and as a result, I have been finishing my acoustic necks in Danish oil. On my recent electric, Joe convinced me to have him spray glossy Catalyzed Polyester to the neck. On the day I received the guitar, it was as hard and dry and more beautiful than any guitar I had seen before...including the PRS customs that had been my standard. And it was 13 days, door to door! And he was dead right about the neck...it turned out hard, slick and fast! He's putting on a satin finish for comparison on my other guitar that was just sent to his shop.

Here's a pic of my latest PE finished electric:

[syxxstring]

I'm not a chemist either, I only really know about paint chemistry a little from the flexner book and what I learned in the House of Kolor training class I took. What you describe are the properties of a catalyzed 2 part clear, most likely an automotive clear. They cure quickly, set up hard, can be baked and last forever if applied right.

As to brands of clear thats like starting a best tube amp debate. Through some friends I've gotten to talk with some of the worlds best automotive painters and asked a circle of about 10 of them which clear to use on a guitar. The ensuing argument was funny.

I'll mostly stick with HOK products because I know I can get support from the painters I know and the factory guys.

[JJ Donohue]

I know for a fact that this finish was not baked. It is, as I stated earlier a catalyzed finish. At least one of the additives is added by means of a small syringe (probably catalyst). Since Joe used to do custom cars, I would not be surprised if it is a product from the automotive industry. He is seriously considering purchasing the UV chamber where the cure is supposedly instantaneous. Having sprayed nitrocellulose lacquer myself, the thought of being able to sand and buff out a guitar on the same day as painting seems so incredible.

Going forward, I may try my next acoustic guitar with a french polished top and a polyester back and sides. Seems like it could provide the best of both worlds.

[low end fuzz]

what kind of endorsment requires you to 'buy' a guitar?

free shirts maybe?

[jmrentis]

It may be MEK that he uses to catalyze the polyester as thats what I remember being the chemical used if one wanted to avoid going UV, actually I think its MEK and a little of one more item, though I would have to go back and read to verify that.

Its funny JJ, I saw your name and introduction post and thought to myself, "huh? he's been around a while, I don't get it" Then as I finished reading your post I realized I knew you from OLF. I do a lot of lurking and reading at OLF, but only rarely post, plus I uses a different screen name.

Anyhow, I believe all the answers we need are found in a couple posts that occurred at OLF maybe 6 months ago or maybe more. It was a couple posts involving a couple posters using polyester including Rick Turner, who explained in detail exactly how he does, plus there was a number of other posters who explained their use of polyurethane and how they compared. I learned so much from those threads and there was a few different threads, one of them being a good 5 or 6 of the old OLF pages which were a mile long. I remember the use of MEK because a few people voiced concern about how dangerous it was and how someone ended up with a shriveled raisin for an eye and Rick explained how so little is used to catalyze the finish that its not a problem or reason to avoid using the chemically catalyzed process. As I said I believe there is one more product, maybe something like cobalt or something, again I would need to read. I remember Joe was very interested and involved in those threads, not sure he was spraying PE at the time, though he might have been, again I'll have to go back and find those threads and link em. Anyhow, glad to see you found your way to PG. Jason

[Mattia]

MEK and cobalt are common catalysts for polyester finishes, many of which (these days) are formulated specifically for wood. Rosewoods often require specific sealer coats to promote adhesion of the topcoat layers. The technology may well have originally been applied in automotive finishes, but the stuff being sprayed on guitars and furniture these days is definitely designed for wood.

I'm still trying to work out if I can set up a 'safe' spray booth type thing for myself, and if I can even (legally) get hold of polyester finishes here (Ilva makes them, as do various other european suppliers...)