Summer Storms, Changing Weather, Guitar Racks And Guitar Tuning

[bluesy]

I have just finished making a Tele style guitar, and was a little worried to find the tuning seemed to shift overnight. All strings were approx. 1/2 a tone flat.

However, I discovered that 3 more of my guitars (2 of them commercially built) had also shifted tuning to varying degrees. Now a few things have changed. I have recently put some brackets up on the wall and hung my guitars up on them. They previously resided in individual guitar cases. Also, we are have had some unusually hot weather, and lot's of storms and humidity.

So, is the tuning change the result of the guitars being out of their cases and thus more exposed to the humidity? Is it perhaps because they are now being hung by the neck rather than sitting on their base or lying down in a case? What do you do with your guitars, do you hang them off brackets?

[kpcrash]

I have all of mine hanging on brackets because I fear that more humidity could buildup inside the cases - but that's just personal belief. I have nothing scientific to base that on right now.

[bluesy]

I'd love to actually justify airconditioning the music/media room permanently - but can't see "the boss" agreeing to that

[ihocky2]

I hang mine on the wall to keep the straps out of my feet, and to keep them out of the dogs path of destruction. But when we get the quick big humidty changes my tuning goes out of whack and depending on how much of a swing the relief jumps up a few thousandths.

[bluesy]

I hang mine on the wall to keep the straps out of my feet, and to keep them out of the dogs path of destruction. But when we get the quick big humidty changes my tuning goes out of whack and depending on how much of a swing the relief jumps up a few thousandths.

Yes, I am seeing something similar. I wonder if more seasoned wood behaves better? Anyway, obviously just something to live with...

[ToneMonkey]

Are they hung on internal or external walls? External walls are much colder.

My acoustic is on a constant trip around the front room at the minute, it normally rests in the corner against the front door but it's way too cold and draughty at the minute.

[bluesy]

Are they hung on internal or external walls? External walls are much colder.

My acoustic is on a constant trip around the front room at the minute, it normally rests in the corner against the front door but it's way too cold and draughty at the minute.

An external wall, but it never gets cold here, not really. Still, I take your point, any changing conditions can cause problems I suppose.

[ToneMonkey]

It's bloody cold here I can tell you that. As the tone is going flat then it would suggest that the guitar has shrunk rather than stretched, so I haven't got a clue

[bluesy]

It's bloody cold here I can tell you that. As the tone is going flat then it would suggest that the guitar has shrunk rather than stretched, so I haven't got a clue

Yeah, I think, rather than being due to shrinkage or expansion directly, it's more likely to be due to the neck shifting/changing.

[foil1more]

Some instruments are more susceptible to change than others. I had a cello that never went out of tune (later found out that the pegs were stuck in the holes). My current cello decided to go completely out of tune right before a concert because I left it in a room that was colder than normal.

[Keegan]

I've never had trouble, but it's dry as hell here in Colorado, so acoustics need a lot of oil to keep shape. The solid tops like to try to flatten out, but my acoustic has been safe in it's Gator case, even though it smells like dead skunk now(must be the foam in the case or something).

The strat stays on the wall(exterior) and has never untuned itself, well, except for new strings, but they always do that for the first few tunings.

[joshvegas]

Everyone one knows we suffer shrinkage when its cold... OH! we are talking about guitars!

[Keegan]

Did you put new strings on them, bluesy? If you didn't, I'd bet it was just the necks setting since they've never been hung before.

I'm not surprised that the brand new one would be flat, because of the new strings, the other ones surprise me though, especially the custom.

[Keegan]

Edit: Figured out the real reason...

I didn't think the speed of sound would be enough to make a guitar out of tune...

Edited December 11, 2008 by Keegan

[bluesy]

DUH. I just realized why they changed. The speed of sound changes with air temperature. Only about .6m/s per degree Celsius, but it's enough to throw your guitar out of tune if it suddenly gets hot or cold.

I checked this hypothesis with my guitar. I tuned my guitar up perfectly, then went outside, where it's about 10 degrees Celsius colder, without giving the guitar any time to acclimate. Sure enough, it was SHARP!

I walked back inside, and checked it a third time. It was PERFECT again.

I've checked and double checked it, it goes sharp every time.

I bet this is all it was, if the weather has changed that much.

Interesting, but I wonder if the speed of sound is the reason. Speed does not equal frequency. The speed of sound is the speed with which a sound propogates through the air - e.g. the delay in hearing a thunderclap.

However, if the resonant frequency of a metal string changes with temperature, then we are onto something Actually, it has to change, because metal contracts with cold, and that puts more tension on the string. The question is if it is enough to change the tuning significantly.

[foil1more]

DUH. I just realized why they changed. The speed of sound changes with air temperature. Only about .6m/s per degree Celsius, but it's enough to throw your guitar out of tune if it suddenly gets hot or cold.

I checked this hypothesis with my guitar. I tuned my guitar up perfectly, then went outside, where it's about 10 degrees Celsius colder, without giving the guitar any time to acclimate. Sure enough, it was SHARP!

I walked back inside, and checked it a third time. It was PERFECT again.

I've checked and double checked it, it goes sharp every time.

I bet this is all it was, if the weather has changed that much.

Interesting, but I wonder if the speed of sound is the reason. Speed does not equal frequency. The speed of sound is the speed with which a sound propogates through the air - e.g. the delay in hearing a thunderclap.

However, if the resonant frequency of a metal string changes with temperature, then we are onto something Actually, it has to change, because metal contracts with cold, and that puts more tension on the string. The question is if it is enough to change the tuning significantly.

It's the reason your voice sounds higher when you inhale helium. The sound travels faster in thin helium than air. I saw this on Mythbusters. Adam also inhaled a gas heavier than air and his voice went lower.

[borge]

i always assumed it was the strings contracting and expanding with changes in temp. (and the corresponding tension changes) like having to franticly tune up your previously perfectly tuned guitar when you get on stage because the heat of the lights make the strings expand.

[borge]

helium doesn't change your pitch, it changes your timbre........

xenon and argon (among others) turn you into Barry White

EDIT damn typos!

Edited December 11, 2008 by borge

[Keegan]

Hmm, it probably is the strings, not anything else. They conduct heat a lot quicker than the guitar, so they would change long before the wood would. Also, more velocity would equal higher pitch, not lower...

I thought I ****ed something up when I set the frequency of the guitar string and the frequency of the sound in air equal to each other to get v/w=v/w, I guess I didn't. So higher temperature = smaller wavelength = higher pitch.

Strings would expand in heat, making them looser, and the sound lower pitched.

Thanks Borge.

[Keegan]

DUH. I just realized why they changed. The speed of sound changes with air temperature. Only about .6m/s per degree Celsius, but it's enough to throw your guitar out of tune if it suddenly gets hot or cold.

I checked this hypothesis with my guitar. I tuned my guitar up perfectly, then went outside, where it's about 10 degrees Celsius colder, without giving the guitar any time to acclimate. Sure enough, it was SHARP!

I walked back inside, and checked it a third time. It was PERFECT again.

I've checked and double checked it, it goes sharp every time.

I bet this is all it was, if the weather has changed that much.

Interesting, but I wonder if the speed of sound is the reason. Speed does not equal frequency. The speed of sound is the speed with which a sound propogates through the air - e.g. the delay in hearing a thunderclap.

However, if the resonant frequency of a metal string changes with temperature, then we are onto something Actually, it has to change, because metal contracts with cold, and that puts more tension on the string. The question is if it is enough to change the tuning significantly.

Speed doesn't equal frequency, but velocity equals the wavelength times the frequency, and the frequency depends on the source of the wave, so if velocity increases, the wavelength has to decrease. This would make it go sharp in heat though, not in cold, and it'd have to be an extreme difference for it to even matter, that's where I ****ed up. I also thought I was checking the tuning quickly enough for nothing to heat up or cool down, but I guess the metal conducts heat so quickly that I didn't remove them from the equation at all. I guess now the thing to check is the tuning at different time intervals in the cold.

I'll try it again, this time with a timer for 3 minutes in the cold. If it's even sharper than it is as soon as I get into the cold, then I'll know that something's losing heat and shrinking(probably the strings, because then they would go sharp; if the wood were losing heat, it would contract and the guitar would go flat, unless maple contracts faster and the neck tension changes, but the wood would take longer than a few minutes to get cold).

Edit: Yup, not only did it go sharper over time, each string's pitch changed at a different rate, in order of size. It has to be the strings getting looser or tighter with temperature then.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Keegan

[psw]

I'm not sure that this will help people's guitars that go out of tune...extreme changes in temperature will always mess with tuning...

...

Anyway...since we are also talking about hanging guitars...this is something I made last year for the wall behind my couch...

I made a pine frame (2x1 on edge, you can kind of see through the yellow one in this pic) with a cross piece at the neck hanger location. I used glue and wood screws to make sure they are all secure. I then went down to a fabric shop and selected some material and I think I may have a layer of calico under there too...and used a staple gun around the back to make sure it is tight like a picture frame. Then, I used some cheap $2 store hangers into that cross piece to hold the guitars. In this place, there is a picture rail...so to avoid affecting the wall, I cut around that and and added some hook kind of things...be sure that however you mount them, they won't easily fall off.

The result is a neat gallery without drilling into the wall and the guitars are protected by the soft fabric and are hanging away from the wall. If the wall gets a lot of temperature change...you could consider shoving insulation behind, although the air gap in there provides a buffer.

Anyway...it's worked well now for over a year and the guitars tend to stay in tune and are always at the ready...don't look so weird when you take one down and well out of the way from damage...not a bad project for a couple of bucks and better than a blank wall!

pete

[anderekel]

That's really cool Pete. I think I have yet another project to work on lol.

Is that an alembic bass? Looks like that's the fretless you mentioned before?

[psw]

It's is fretless...long scale...but a cheap "vantage"...it is pretty well made. It looks like a neck though...but it is actually a bolt on...the strat is in mid rewire and trying to tempt me back to the project...

All three only took a couple of hours to make and cost very little...haven't fallen down yet!